Comparing vintage (tortoiseshell) and modern picks...

[Tavy]

Yes I know.... yet another pick thread... sorry!

But I thought this might be fun - comparing a vintage TortoiseShell pick with 2 modern ultex ones - one reshaped to match the pointy tortoiseshell one, and one ProPlec.

They're actually surprisingly similar in sound.... despite the tortoiseshell being much thinner.... most of the difference occurs in the high register.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrL6tA6F3ms

[derbex]

Interesting, as you say little to choose -main highlight for me is how nice that instrument is I love the shape and the sound, but why the sound port on the bottom?

Might have been different if you tried it on one of the bowl backs, I have been using a thin, perhaps tortoiseshell, plectrum that came with my Ceccherini up to now, and a JAZZ III on my flatback. I have just got 3 mixed Jim Dunlop lexan jazz picks and 2 Dava Jazz ones from ebay and it looks like I might be moving to Davas, easy to grip good sound and tremolo still works. I rate the JDs too, although only the 1mm works for the bowl back and it is a bit noisier than either of the Davas.

[Tavy]

Interesting, as you say little to choose -main highlight for me is how nice that instrument is I love the shape and the sound, but why the sound port on the bottom?

Well why not ;) OK, it isn't much use, and in future I'll stick to one large one on top, but sometimes you just have to try something and see...

Oh, and I meant to post this in the equipment section, but no matter :confused:

[Ted Eschliman]

This thread is being stopped not because of what's already been posted but where these discussions inevitably go. Enjoy the video, but the subsequent conversation is over before it starts.

Posts dealing in the sale or transfer of tortoise-shell products protected by the 1973 Endangered Species act are not allowed and will be removed. This includes picks made from "antique" shells. The purpose of this forum is the discussion of music, not the correctness or incorrectness of this issue. Discussions that start or end up on this topic are subject to being closed at the moderator's discretion. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/faq.php)

[Ted Eschliman]

After careful consideration, we are going to reopen this thread. We lean toward a hair trigger response to any thread that deal with sex, religion, politics, and of course, Tortoise. I appreciate all the efforts Tavy has made to document these comparisons. I think it's safe to say the conclusion is the modern materials are worthy, and as long as we can steer away from discussing the merits of enforcement of the Endangered Species Act, the thread can continue.

Please, don't ruin this for us. Keep the subject on the modern materials (not the availability of the "vintage"), and we can have a healthy discourse. If you have any objections feel free to share with me and/or the other Moderators privately.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Thanks Ted. This subject really isn't all that important to me, as I have no desire to experience the 'vintage' material. I did think it was cool that Tavy took the time and trouble to produce and post the video. It was interesting to watch/hear.

This is the first time I know of, that a thread was allowed to return from the cornfield!

[grassrootphilosopher]

After careful consideration, we are going to reopen this thread. We lean toward a hair trigger response to any thread that deal with sex, religion, politics, and of course, Tortoise. I appreciate all the efforts Tavy has made to document these comparisons. I think it's safe to say the conclusion is the modern materials are worthy, and as long as we can steer away from discussing the merits of enforcement of the Endangered Species Act, the thread can continue.

Please, don't ruin this for us. Keep the subject on the modern materials (not the availability of the "vintage"), and we can have a healthy discourse. If you have any objections feel free to share with me and/or the other Moderators privately.

I am very happy with this decision.

Comparing picks is quite a task that has an enormous importance for many pickers. And it has nothing to do with materials. In this case, we can clearly keep to the tonal properties of the picks, sparing everything else.

I listened to the video, being interested as to what the other picks will do to (for) the instrument, considering that the mandolin was not your everyday "bluegrass machine". This was a major factor for me to listen to the video.

I found out (favorably) that the differences are minor. While noticing differences especially in the high registers and the single note picking and the chord playing i found differences negligable when it came to the low registers.

I think that this pick comparison proves that a major contributor to the tone is
a) the instrument that you play
b) the playing technique and
c) the type and shape of the pick (disregarding the material)

To give further thought: I have a tortoise shel pick that I reserve for special ocasions (don´t want to wear it out). I use it on guitars only (same reason). I also use Hense picks (https://www.martinsmusikkiste.eu/zubehoer/plektren-picks/hense/4769/hense-standard-h-happy-turtle-pick). Apart from Red Bear picks (https://www.redbeartrading.com/) which are hard to come by these days I think that they are the next best thing compared to real turtle tonewise. My son´s guitar teacher does not like Hense picks at all even though he would love to have a tortoise shell pick. This goes to show how subjective tone is. But (!) I think that if you are looking for a go to pick that you might play at most any ocasion special picks might not do it. So as a go to pick I am very satisfied with a Wegen (bluegrass pick even though I was given a Wegen Jazz pick [super thick but with tone to die for] for my [not so new anymore] new mandolin, my old mandolin still likes a cheapo Clayton Tortex Ultem the best).

This goes to show that there´s a lot more to think about out there than just what kind of pick you might be playing.

I found out that the better the instrument is the more relevance the pick has when it comes to define the tone.

I did a nice comparison of some of the finer instruments out there (HoGo [Adrian Minarovic F5 - a very nice [!] mandolin, Vana A5 [interesting also], Duff F5). While I played all these instruments the listeners told me that the player (in this case me as oposed to the owners) had a great impact on the tone of the instrument as well. This you must not disregard to my mind.

As a closing point I would like to say what tone I am striving for.

I like the tone to be fat, yet not muddy. I like the tone to be clear and defined. I like it to be so in the low registers as well as in the high registers. I do not mind the tone to be dark when the other mentioned properties of the tone are there also. For someone who likes a strident tone a turtle pick is out of the picture. For someone who likes the tone dark and does not mind a subdued tone (think bass heavy modern mandolins) a tutle pick is also uncalled for. So there´s a lid for every pot.

And thanks for the comparison.

[Tavy]

Thanks for the comments folks, some general points:

* It's pretty clear to me that I sound like "me" whichever pick I use. Shame really ;)
* The pointy-Ultex pick was incredibly easy to reshape - the bevels were put on with just a felt buffing wheel in a dremel. No wonder they wear out :disbelief:
* This thread would have been less controversial had the TS pick sounded terrible!
* My intentions in doing this comparison, was to try and discover whether the best of the equipment available "back in the day" was in any way comparable to what we have readily available now. Much to my surprise it is, but certainly not any better.

And finally, I mention this in the video a little, but the legal position as I understand it is this:

While it is perfectly legal to trade in pre-ban CITES protected items, if they are reworked in any way they are treated as new items and become illegal. In the case of picks, the question you have to ask yourself is "how long will the point last before it becomes blunt and needs reworking?" Add to which you can never prove the origin or age of such an item, and you can see the issue. In short if you're given one it's an interesting curiosity, but ultimately can never be more than that.

[vic-victor]

Moderator edit. This is exactly why the thread was shut down temporarily. Leave it alone or we shut it down permanently.

[Bertram Henze]

I am glad again that this comparison confirms what I knew all the time: the Claytons are still the best for my taste and I am not even tempted to try fancy safari souvenirs (you know, this feeling of "I cut this pick off the horn of a rhino with my pocket knife while it was running away with me on it").

I think shape and hardness of the pick are the main factors and can be achieved with many materials. The Claytons add the sound of material being rasped off, which I like very much, though it wears the picks down fast, but they are cheap.

[Tavy]

Comments removed

We're getting off topic - and this is the reason why Ted shut the thread down in the first place - but believe me there are very good reasons for making re-working illegal: imagine you catch someone selling newly carved ivory red-handed, and they say "it's not new, I just re-worked it gov", you would have a hard time proving them wrong frankly, and for that reason all trade in re-worked items is illegal. There is I suppose nothing to stop you from chopping up you're own property any way you see fit (just don't try and pass through customs with it, not unless you want a really interesting tour of local law enforcement), but frankly why bother when the modern ones are at least as good?

Back on topic everyone now please...!

[Tavy]

I forgot to say:

If there is a consensus that even talking about this subject is a bad idea, and/or is likely to promote the trade in illegal TS, please do shout up, and I'll remove the video from the web altogether.

Best, John.

[vic-victor]

Moderator's edit. Unnecessary snark post removed. Find another forum where you are more comfortable with the established Posting Guidelines.

[barry]

Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

[Charles E.]

There are so many good materials being used by manufactures of picks these days, I do not see the need for a vintage pick. I may have to stop by the Bluechip booth at this years IBMA here in Raleigh and try a couple.

Thanks Tavy for the video.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The TS pick that Tavy owns,is like my own,a very much pre.1947 made pick,possibly made in the 1920s. I have to say that IMHO it's a dreadful sounding thing. TS seem much stiffer than our modern pick materials, & mine makes my mandolins sound like broken glass,
Ivan

[grassrootphilosopher]

The TS pick that Tavy owns,is like my own,a very much pre.1947 made pick,possibly made in the 1920s. I have to say that IMHO it's a dreadful sounding thing. TS seem much stiffer than our modern pick materials, & mine makes my mandolins sound like broken glass,
Ivan

This is the essence of an individual experience. It goes to show that there´s not a uniform answer to sound (hence so many "which pick is the best" threads).

While I find that TS-picks are about the best sounding picks for (my) guitars I do not use them on my mandolins. I found out that as my picking abilities changed for the better the use of TS-picks on mandolins would be possible. The wear and tear of the material prohibits the daily use of them though.

When I think of Norman Blake´s Homespun video, he explains that he uses TS on his mandolins but not on his guitars, because of "scratchy" side noise. Tony Rice uses them on his guitars.

Is it not interesting?

By the way the difference between the Wegen Jazz pick and the Wegen Bluegrass pick on my F-5 style mandolin is significant. The Jazz pick clears up the sound a lot (in the direction of broken glass) whereas the Bluegrass pick gives it some more smack (as like lips smacking). Different sound ideas and ideals are quickly procured by different picks. The difference is even more noticable the better the mandolin is.

[barry]

My thoughts are similar. I always prefer BlueChips on mandolin.
When playing guitar alone, I find the TS pick noise too distracting. However, they work well on guitar within an ensemble.

[GKWilson]

I know of a guy [Don't PM me] who makes beautiful TS picks out of antique hand mirrors
hair brushes and the like. I thought about commissioning one a few years back. But
after listening to Tavy and trying out a few, I think there are at least a half dozen new picks
that are as good or better. And, if I happen to fly out of the country I don't have to remember
to take them out of my case. Plus I could have a pocketful of Blue Chips for the price of one.
I'm also a diver and have spent some of my best hours swimming with these unassuming
little buddies.
I have a lot I would like to say but I'm afraid they might take me past the parameters given
by the moderators.
Thanks for your time Tavy. I'm always happy to see and hear one of your beautiful mandolins.
Especially your mandola. Hint. :grin:
Gary

[Ivan Kelsall]

From above - ".....who makes beautiful TS picks out of antique hand mirrors hair brushes and the like. ". Ref.post #8 - that's the illegal part - the re-shaping of one item into another 'new' item,
Ivan

[DavidKOS]

My thoughts are similar. I always prefer BlueChips on mandolin.
When playing guitar alone, I find the TS pick noise too distracting. However, they work well on guitar within an ensemble.

Just a question - on your mandolin pick is the tip rounded or pointed?



trying out a few, I think there are at least a half dozen new picks
that are as good or better.


I have a couple antique TS picks in my collection - and I have the same opinion as you do, that many materials will do quite nicely as a replacement material.

[Bertram Henze]

He gestured Arthur toward a chair which looked as if it had been made out of the rib cage of a stegosaurus.
“It was made out of the rib cage of a stegosaurus,” explained the old man as he pottered about…

(Douglas Adams The Hitchhiker's Guide...)