Comparisons between A Style and F style for a given builder

[dwc]

I have seen (and been a part of) countless discussions debating the merits of A style mandolins vs F syle mandolins, but I have never seen this question raised (If it has been and I have missed it, please direct me to the appropriate thread(s)).

The question: For a given builder, are the top end A model mandolins as nice (sound/tone, fit and finish etc) as the top end F models. For instance, does a Kentucky KM 900 sound as good as a KM 1500? Is a Collings MT2 as nice as an MF5?

I know that it is difficult to generalize, but most everyone in the mandolin community seems to be in agreement that you get more for your money with an A style instrument, but for a given builder, is a top end A as good as a top end F? If there are comparisons, I would love to see/hear them and hear thoughts and experiences.

[darylcrisp]

i can only speak for the Collings i've owned/played, yes, every Collings is as nice as the other(no matter what model) in build, fit, finish(tone varies for each instrument within itself of course)

[EdHanrahan]

FWIW, I've played a number of Flatirons ('90s Bozeman-built), and the As and Fs struck me as comparable w/in their range of model-levels.

Frankly, I can't imagine a builder short-changing the quality of an A-style as it could sabotage their whole reputation. Who would possibly want anyone saying, "Make sure to buy their really-big-bucks F-style because their just-big-bucks A-style is not so great."

[DataNick]

FWIW, I've played a number of Flatirons ('90s Bozeman-built), and the As and Fs struck me as comparable w/in their range of model-levels...

I have found this to be anecdotally the case with Nashville Flatirons (1999-2001) between A & F models and between Gibson A5G/F5G of the same time frame as compared to Flatirons. I recently sold a 2000 Gibson F5G that I had acquired because it was so unmistakingly the "same" mandolin as my 99' Flatiron Performer A; only my Flatiron was better (more opened up, sweeter tone).

[sunburst]

I can only speak for one builder (me), but my A-style mandolins are made just the same as my F-style mandolins in terms of quality, attention to detail, and everything else, other than points and scrolls. I suspect most, if not all other builders can say the same.

As for factories, I don't know, but observation of a fairly large sample of both types, in similar quality ranges, from a given manufacturer should tell the tale. There may be manufacturers who have a low end A model and don't make a comparable low end F model, but it could easily be the other way around; a manufacturer may have a low end F-style without a comparable A-style because points and scrolls are easier to sell. How often do we see a thread asking; "What's the best F for under $XXX ? I really have my heart set on an F."?
Manufacturers have to know that the F-only market exists, and perhaps that is an incentive to make a low quality, cost cutting F instead of a low quality A...
So anyway, when comparing A vs F within a manufacturer's line (particularly a "budget" manufacturer), comparing similar build quality, rather than similar price point, may not be as straight forward as comparing mandolins from a given builder.

[trevor]

Having done this comparison many times with many different makers I am personally confident that it makes no difference.

[almeriastrings]

Another +.

No detectable difference to my ears. I have extensively compared Silverangel, Kentucky (900 & up), Ellis and Gibson, plus a few examples of Heiden and Gilchrist and the 'A's sounded every bit as good as their respective 'F' relations. Of course, you do get 'instrument to instrument' variation, but there was no 'trend' that could reasonably be ascribed to the scroll (or lack thereof).

[Al Bergstein]

The real test is to put on new strings, close your eyes and play the instrument. If it blows you away, it won't matter.

I bought an F Collings once, and spent an hour in a sound booth at Dusty Strings comparing it to the A sister model delivered from the same batch. Both were very similar, and the difference really didn't seem to have anything to do with the design. Ultimately I paid a bit more and bought the F because it sounded a wee bit better. A friend has an A Collings (the A version of the MF5) and it has superb tone and woody sound. Better than my F. I recently bought a used Heiden A and it holds it's own as one of the best sounding instrument I've ever played. I've also played Simon Mayor's A in England, and it is also a superb instrument, his technique is fabulous, which helps! Go for the sound, not the style unless you really fancy yourself wanting one or the other.

Think about all the great players, Tim O'Brien, Simon Mayor, John Reischman, etc etc. They all play what they have come to think of as the finest instruments that they ever have owned. Just follow the tone. It will speak to you. You'll find the instrument. Now get back to practicing! (G)

[yankees1]

I have an A and a F by Tom Ellis and both are equally great in the areas of fit, finish and sound ! You can't go wrong with an Ellis !

[Ray(T)]

I've had a Kimble A from new (2008) and, as Trevor will be aware, recently picked up a second hand Kimble F of much the same vintage. I wouldn't say that one is better that the other but they are certainly different.

[dang]

What would really be a decent comparison?
Do the tops and backs have to be cut from the same log?
Identical finish and color?
Can they have different bindings?
I assume we are talking with the same strings and the same pick...
Do they have to be made at exactly the same time?
Do they have to have the exact same number of hours played?
Do the extra hours spent making the F style need to be also spent on the A style? (What if it is all about time in the luthiers hands?)
Identical neck profiles?
Is the action exactly the same on both instruments?

If you step in the same river twice, is it the same river and are you the same person?
What if you just play on the Banks of the Ohio?

Trust your ears and pick :mandosmiley:

[OldGus]

...most everyone in the mandolin community seems to be in agreement that you get more for your money with an A style instrument...

I disagree with this sort of blanket statement. I think it depends on the deal you are getting and that resale value is also a factor to consider...Furthermore everything varies by example.

[yankees1]

I disagree with this sort of blanket statement. I think it depends on the deal you are getting and that resale value is also a factor to consider...Furthermore everything varies by example. Yes, there are variables but generally you do get more for your buck with an A over a F.

[OldGus]

Yes, there are variables but generally you do get more for your buck with an A over a F.

He said in a given example and they just vary too much in price, quality, condition(if used) between different builders(one person might make a better A generally while another makes a better F generally), eras, and specific examples to give a good blanket generalization about the real world marketplace. My A5 was my most expensive instrument. What was yours? An A or F? Doesn't your concept of 'bang for buck' also translate to resale value? Personally I found the best value in two used F5's...

[yankees1]

He said in a given example and they just vary too much in price, quality, condition(if used) between different builders(one person might make a better A generally while another makes a better F generally), eras, and specific examples to give a good blanket generalization about the real world marketplace. My A5 was my most expensive instrument. What was yours? An A or F? Doesn't your concept of 'bang for buck' also translate to resale value? Personally I found the best value in two used F5's... You are correct that resale has to figure into the best value and a used F5 might be the way to go. My Ellis F5 cost more than double than my Ellis A ( both new ) but the playability and sound is no better with the F over the A . From this standpoint I think the A was a better value than the F. All good points and each person has to decide according to their financial situation which would be a better value. However, you are generally correct !

[OldGus]

I agree that an A can sound every bit as good or even better sometimes than an F. And are generally a cheaper counterpart to the F. Like you indicate lot of builders claim the same sound from both...

[dwc]

First, thank you very much to those who have replied. Your observations and experiences have been helpful.


I disagree with this sort of blanket statement. I think it depends on the deal you are getting and that resale value is also a factor to consider...Furthermore everything varies by example.

No blanket statement is ever true 100% of the time. I was just trying to distinguish my question from the nearly ubiquitous question that is some variation of, "I have $X to spend, should I get an A style or an F style?"

Although answers will vary, most people would say you can get a better A style for the same price as a lesser F style. Some will disagree, but there will be consensus that you can get a better mandolin if you go with an A, and if you go used.

My question is/was slightly different, and I was just trying to drive that point home.

In a lot of ways, mandolins are a lot like Porsches (my father was a collector). No matter vociferously enthusiasts and collectors maintain that a Boxter/Cayman is just as good, if not better than a 911, everyone who is into Porsches eventually wants a 911, because it is a 911.

[OldGus]

I had a new A5 made to get in the door with a great modern maker and bought an older F5 to get the aged, played in tone now. The new one cost a lot more and it is great but I would probably lose money if I sold it and I would probably make money on the F5 if I sold it. I guess I just want to say that between makers, models and markets there is a big difference often times when you factor it all together at once in a real world scenario. Now I might get a Buckeye F5 or an Ellis A5 for $5K, which is the better deal? I think the F5(He doesn't make A's)...now it's up to you to decide. I might be able to help you find a good mando if I had more info on what you want...

[JFDilmando]

ref to value and comparisons.... I have sat with several people in a circle playing various instruments A and F models... one person doesn't hear a difference between too mandolins, one twice the price as the other.... to that person, "well, one is obviously a better 'value' than the other".... whereas, the person sitting next to that person feels that the more expensive instrument plays so much sweeter than the other that is it is "so much more a gem that it is worth three times the cost of the other"....
To make statements like.... "one sounded the same and therefore one is a better value" only pertains to that one person.... who might be tone challenged compared to someone else....

I have heard and played many instruments from the absolute worst to my ear to the best that Loar Gibsons offer, and I would never presume that I could tell someone what is better for them relative to how an instrument sounds. The thought just amuses me, and that folks actually do that just reveals a certain ignorance that will go away with time, age, experience, introspection, or ...not.

These kind of questions raised, and answers offered will continue on and on .... and hopefully, every time a discussion occurs an interesting exploration of what folks believe will occur.... and education happens.

[OldGus]

It's not about telling them but listening to them, discussion and then conducting a search to help them help themselves...

[Jeff Mando]

In a lot of ways, mandolins are a lot like Porsches (my father was a collector). No matter vociferously enthusiasts and collectors maintain that a Boxter/Cayman is just as good, if not better than a 911, everyone who is into Porsches eventually wants a 911, because it is a 911.

I was thinking along similar lines, also. Basically, and for whatever reason, you don't see a lot of 80-year old grandmothers driving Corvettes, do you? And, again, for some reason college professors like Volvos and Saabs. And teenage boys wouldn't be caught dead in one....

Almost like asking, which do you prefer, short blonde hair or long curly hair? We like what appeals to us. Too bad we only have two choices! (A or F) Unless, you count bowlbacks, flat tops, and 2-points....(then there would be 5 choices!) :grin:

Like ya say, a variation of an old question....

[Nick Gellie]

Looking at this afar way across the Pacific Ocean in a far off land and having appreciated the merits of As and Fs, it comes down to what mandolin culture you feel a part of. You go for what you feel most comfortable with in a given setting. If i was to go to a Bluegrass festival in Australia, you will see the majority of mandolins there are F5s - it goes with the culture. I will still take an A5 though.

I am working with a mandolin maker in the US to create a wonderful A5 that has the all the pop, chop, and sparkle of an F5 and that Gibson woody tone. We both agree that the A5 is the way to go because it is simple, wonderfully lightweight, elegant, and a cost-effective to build and purchase. The prototype has been tested by a really good mando player and he loved it. His F5s are good instruments too. But for now the A-5s have it.

You see it all depends how good that A-5 sounds and plays. We hear a lot of talk of how good a Heiden A-5 or a Gilchrist model 3 or a Nugget A are but you still pay a premium for a top end name. There are plenty of luthiers out there who are making wonderful A5s. And then what about all those great Flatiron Festival and Artist As that people swear by in terms of tone and volume. Or to go back even further in time to the Givens As.

[JeffD]

and that resale value is also a factor to consider....

No I keep that entirely separate. If at the time of purchase you are buying to own and play, then some possible later decision to sell because of some possible later circumstance, is irrelevant to the comparison.

How much of a premium are you willing to pay for a better resale value. Or, how much of a compromise in tone are you willing to accept in an affordable mandolin because it has a better resale value. I think the answer for most people is "none". Its not a factor. It may be a justification after the fact. :)


It is interesting to wonder if an F body holds its value better than an A. I don't know. I would think if this were true it would have been detected and discussed.

[JeffD]

I think with the same builder you start getting down to the small difference between any two mandolins. Chasing data points down in the noise.

[acousticphd]

I have seen (and been a part of) countless discussions debating the merits of A style mandolins vs F syle mandolins, but I have never seen this question raised (If it has been and I have missed it, please direct me to the appropriate thread(s)).

The question: For a given builder, are the top end A model mandolins as nice (sound/tone, fit and finish etc) as the top end F models. For instance, does a Kentucky KM 900 sound as good as a KM 1500? Is a Collings MT2 as nice as an MF5?

I know that it is difficult to generalize, but most everyone in the mandolin community seems to be in agreement that you get more for your money with an A style instrument, but for a given builder, is a top end A as good as a top end F? If there are comparisons, I would love to see/hear them and hear thoughts and experiences.


Well, the "question", or perhaps the assertion has been made and argued here many times. I am someone who owns and plays only A-style mandolins, and that (that comparable-level or same-series A models are just as good) is certainly my belief. I have a strong aesthetic preference for the A-style shape, but for me it definitely is too about the economy or affordability. That doesn't mean I am trying to scrimp; it means I would rather own 2 or 3 A-styles instead of 1 or 2 F-styles.

I have had people tell me many times how good one of my instruments sounds "for an A-style". This is nonsense, and just shows how ingrained the idea is that A-models are "lesser than" - and yet it is a sort of compliment at the same time. Say "thank you", and play on.

When you ask the "is it just as good" question, it is important that the person you seek to please is YOU. I think you are on more even ground when you compare models from the same "series" or trim level (as opposed to comparing the highest A model to the highest F). Nearly all mfrs and builders arrange their products into price levels in this way, according to finish and trim and wood figuring, etc., though it may be that the best-looking or -figured wood sets tend to be reserved for the top F-models. If we just for example were to compare an Eastman 805 (A-style) with the 815 (F-style), then yes, I would be completely confident the A-model is made just as well as should sound just as good, on average. Same with Collings or someone else. At the same time, I would expect to find that the simpler, less expensive models in a quality line of instruments may be the best bargain of all, and there is little reason why they would not sound just as good because they have a matte finish, less binding, and perhaps more economical hardware.

[dwc]

Once again, thanks to everyone who has responded.


Well, the "question", or perhaps the assertion has been made and argued here many times. I am someone who owns and plays only A-style mandolins, and that (that comparable-level or same-series A models are just as good) is certainly my belief. I have a strong aesthetic preference for the A-style shape, but for me it definitely is too about the economy or affordability. That doesn't mean I am trying to scrimp; it means I would rather own 2 or 3 A-styles instead of 1 or 2 F-styles.

I have had people tell me many times how good one of my instruments sounds "for an A-style". This is nonsense, and just shows how ingrained the idea is that A-models are "lesser than" - and yet it is a sort of compliment at the same time. Say "thank you", and play on.

When you ask the "is it just as good" question, it is important that the person you seek to please is YOU. I think you are on more even ground when you compare models from the same "series" or trim level (as opposed to comparing the highest A model to the highest F). Nearly all mfrs and builders arrange their products into price levels in this way, according to finish and trim and wood figuring, etc., though it may be that the best-looking or -figured wood sets tend to be reserved for the top F-models. If we just for example were to compare an Eastman 805 (A-style) with the 815 (F-style), then yes, I would be completely confident the A-model is made just as well as should sound just as good, on average. Same with Collings or someone else. At the same time, I would expect to find that the simpler, less expensive models in a quality line of instruments may be the best bargain of all, and there is little reason why they would not sound just as good because they have a matte finish, less binding, and perhaps more economical hardware.

I too prefer A styles mandolins, and it has little to do with economics or value. I prefer the aesthetic, and find them more balanced and comfortable. What I worry about is whether I am "short-changing" myself should I select (for instance) a Collings MT2 over an MF5. Sure, my ears would guide me, but generalities can be useful in narrowing a search.

[JeffD]

Nearly all mfrs and builders arrange their products into price levels in this way, according to finish and trim and wood figuring, etc., though it may be that the best-looking or -figured wood sets tend to be reserved for the top F-models. .

I have no way of knowing, but I do not think many, if any builders, reserve the "better" tone woods for the more expensive F style. Trim and aesthetic decisions might be different based on price level, but I think a builder goes after the best sound possible with every instrument.

But there again, it is individual, and you just have to play 'em and see. In general, I believe, significant differences in sound quality between an A and an F body are due to differences other than the A or F body. Any given A could sound closer to any given F than it does to other A models, and etc.

[sunburst]

I have had people tell me many times how good one of my instruments sounds "for an A-style".

Come to think of it, I've heard that quite a few times myself. It is a statement of the too-common underlying, ingrained belief that F mandolins sound better than A mandolins, whether those holding that belief admit it to themselves or not. Something that ingrained in the collective consciousness is a stubborn thing.


I have no way of knowing, but I do not think many, if any builders, reserve the "better" tone woods for the more expensive F style.

I think that is correct. These days, we have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to tonewoods. Specialty businesses dealing in wood for instruments cull through tons of wood and sell the cream of the crop to builders. Unfortunately, wood appearance is assigned to much priority, IMO, but still...
A builder buys wood, that is the cream of the crop, from tonewood suppliers. In most cases, better quality than has historically been available. That is all the suppliers sell. Where, exactly, would a builder come up with their inferior tonewood to use in A-style mandolins? Would he/she seek it out from some other source just to use it in A mandolins? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Personally, I try to use top and back wood pieces that are too small for F-style tops and backs when I build an A. Sometimes, that is some of my best wood, and it was reserved for use in an A because it would not make an F. So, in my case, wood that is reserved for F-style mandolins is reserved because it is big enough. Why waste the extra wood using it for an A when I have smaller pieces of wood for that?

[mandroid]

Kind of a sweeping generalization, but a Mass Produced Import would have variations in mandolins
that look identical

though the tone each produce will have variation, because wood is not a uniform Material.

a friend, part time at the local Music shop went to the Eastman Importer's Warehouse
and tried a Bunch of Lookalike F5s to find the tone he preferred in the whole Lot.

[Mark Wilson]

Kind of a sweeping generalization, but a Mass Produced Import would have variations in mandolins
that look identical though the tone each produce will have variationI tried several Eastman F5's at their booth last year and the two 315s they had sounded totally different from each other. One was very thin and the other sounded more balanced.

[OldGus]

...how much of a compromise in tone are you willing to accept in an affordable mandolin because it has a better resale value...
None, I want to be selective. Affordable is a self defined case which means I can get it at a price I can spare.

[OldGus]

I would never presume that I could tell someone what is better for them relative to how an instrument sounds. The thought just amuses me, and that folks actually do that just reveals a certain ignorance that will go away with time, age, experience, introspection, or ...not.

Glad you're amused. How about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHXpStjjLVI&spfreload=10.And this Hogan is a cannon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3AZ-2ajTBI.