Guitar acoustics question (no explicit mando content)

[SincereCorgi]

A friend of mine is buying his first fancy guitar, a Santa Cruz, and was telling me all about his shopping experiences. The salesman gave him some advice that made me scratch my head, and I thought it might be interesting to see what the reactions here might be:

Is there any truth to these?

1) That you want a cedar top for a fingerpicking guitar because you can 'drive' it more easily, whereas spruce requires a pick. Flatpicking a cedar top guitar 'overdrives' it and spoils the sound.

2) Shallow-body guitars are better for fingerpicking because the sound 'bounces off the back' faster than in a deeper-bodied guitar like a dreadnought. Dreadnoughts will always sound delayed and murky by comparison.

[Petrus]

Stuff and nonsense. (To be polite.) Flamenco guitars, made specifically for a fingerpicking style, usually have a spruce top. There are all kinds of variables that affect an instrument's frequency response (dark or bright) and resonance (a deep body will have more resonance, certainly), but you can flatpick or fingerpick any of these combinations. Best bet is to try it out yourself before buying and you'll hear the results immediately.

A more pertinent factor might be string spacing. Classical and flamenco guitars, for instance, which are designed for fingerpicking almost exclusively, tend to have wider necks and correspondingly wider spacing between the strings, making for easier fingerpicking. Strings that are too close together (as on a twelve-string guitar or mandolin) are more difficult to fingerpick. But the typical full-sized six string guitar can be fingerpicked or flatpicked as you please.

[Michael Neverisky]

Any generalization regarding the materials used is misleading because much depends upon how the guitar was built and the preferences of the player. When I started fingerpicking the guitar years ago some of the most inspirational players I heard were playing Martin and Gibson dreadnought guitars with spruce tops - including Leo Kottke who played a Gibson B-45 12 string. And, of course, Dave Van Ronk and Gary Davis... each of whom played jumbo guitars which would not be marketed as "fingerstyle guitars" today.

Your friend would do well to play many guitars and go with the instrument which feels best ergonomically and whose voice speaks to his heart. Once he zeros in on a particular guitar, my suggestion would be to sit and play it for an extended period of time prior to purchase.

[markT]

Generally speaking, I think #1&2 are spot on.

That doesn't mean that is 100% what you should base your selection on.
Like others said, play many and you be the judge on what makes you happy.

[avaldes]

I play classical and flamenco, as well as fingerstyle on a steel string. One of my classicals is cedar top. My other one and my flamenco are spruce. My steel string is an OM copy, spruce top and smallish but not shallow body, and longish scale (25.5). To add to the myths, I was told long ago that cedar does not require as much "play-in" time to open up. Not sure I buy that.
My mandolin is typical spruce-maple.

https://youtu.be/g-CXun9jN7g

[EdHanrahan]

I sort of agree that #1&2 are "spot on" in theory, as long as you realize that the spectrums (of wood & body depth) being defined are not at all a straight line from 0-to-100 at the extreme ends. It's more like one end of the spectum covers from 0-to-96 while the other end covers from 4-to-100. So there's lots of overlap, and even more when you factor in our wide ranges of picking / fingering styles, not to mention our personal preferences. (And we do adapt our style based on the instrument in hand). Add in that our accumulated experience of just "listening" develops over years and decades, and you may as well...

Like others said, play many and you be the judge on what makes you happy.

BTW: Good question.
BTW2: Nice picking, avaldes!

Edit...
Of course, that last 4% of the spectrum might become important based on who your playing with. By yourself or in a quiet group, any music can come out of any instrument. Whereas, at one particular extreme, a small-bodied cedar-top guitar probably won't be heard over the racket of all-out bluegrass banjoes & fiddles.

[almeriastrings]

On the subject of spruces vs. cedar, it can be true (and I have experienced it), but on the other hand, is certainly not always true - I have a very nice red cedar/EIRW dread that flatpicks beautifully and you never get the feel you are over-driving it. So many factors... individual woods, bracing... overall design... I long ago gave up on choosing any instrument purely on "paper specs". Ears are a far better guide! Oh, and my wife is a fingerstyle player, and her all time favorite? An OM42 with adi top!

[JeffD]

My guitarist friends, many of them, extoll the virtues of cedar. They give all kinds of advantages over spruce (and mahogany I presume), said advantages including only needing a lighter touch, better for small bodied guitars, more durable, faster wake up, and other things, and in most cases its "real obvious and you can prove it for yourself". Seems it is almost as big as the Ford / Chevy debate.

I don't know enough about it, but like a lot of things, I think there is likely some truth and some not. Individual pieces of wood, individual makers, individual players likely cloud the issue, and individual preferences only add gasoline to the fires of debate.

I dunno. When did I start worrying so much about why I like something, rather than just liking the potatoes out of it and moving on? Or is that just a natural trait of a nerd like me.

[foldedpath]

Oh, I feel a small-scale rant coming on here. :)

I'm a huge fan of Santa Cruz guitars. But your friend should find another salesman to work with. Or just contact Santa Cruz directly for advice on their lineup. That's B.S.

On the first topic, there is a tremendous amount of Internet mythology built up over cedar vs. spruce differences, and most of it is nonsense because wood is so variable. As I understand the history (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), cedar topped guitars were originally popularized by the classical guitar company Ramirez, when they were having trouble getting supplies of spruce in sufficient quantity. I think this might have been back in the 1960's or a bit later.

Over the years, cedar became increasingly accepted in the classical guitar world for its ability to sound as good as spruce, and the aesthetics of the darker top also became popular (don't discount the aesthetic issue here). But spruce classical guitars are still popular. Eventually, cedar started being used for steel string guitars that were marketed for "fingerstyle guitar players," probably a combination of the association with classical guitars, and the fact that fingerstyle players were less likely to have preconceived notions of needing a direct Martin copy. Add 20-30 years of Internet mythology and preconceptions on top of that, and it's where we are now.

I've been selling off most of my guitars lately, and I'm down to the two keepers (plus an old Dobro) -- a custom koa Santa Cruz FS topped with "German spruce" (and that's a whole other discussion), and a rosewood Holst nylon string topped with Port Orford Cedar. They both sound great, and I think they would both still sound great if the top woods were magically swapped. The sound would be a little different, but I'm sure it would be something I could work with and enjoy. As an unscientific, anecdotal report, I can't say that either guitar "broke in" faster or sounded better after 5-10 years. They're both just really good guitars, and the Santa Cruz works well either flatpicked when I'm backing Irish trad, or for more delicate fingerstyle arrangements.

Bottom line: there is a lot more that goes into guitar construction and resulting sound quality than the species of wood in the top. It makes a difference, but the difference is very hard to quantify because wood being what it is, no two guitars from different luthiers are ever alike, even when made from the same wood species.

On that second topic of body depth, it's purely subjective. Small body guitars are easier to record and amplify, but there are plenty of fingerstyle players out there who like a big, powerful bass response. Much of the foundation for "modern" steel string guitar style was played on big Martins, Gibsons, and Guilds by players like Hedges, Kaukonen, Kottke, Graham, Jansch, Renbourn, Fahey and the rest... all playing dreadnoughts or big Gibsons long before good smaller body guitars were available.

For what it's worth, my personal preference is something closer to the OM body size. It's not so large that boominess is a problem when amplifying or recording, but it has a nice tight bass response that you won't get from parlor-sized guitars. YMMV, as always.

[Rob Meldrum]

As Yogi Berra once said, "In theory there is no difference between practice and theory, but in practice there is."

About thirty years ago I was in the process of buying a Martin guitar and the helpful music store brought in over a dozen different Martins for me to try out. The "same" guitars (two or three of each model, same woods and finishes) sounded very different when played. Every individual has a different playing style and ears, but as I made my way through the enjoyable process I ended up with a stunning D-35.

Played fingerstyle it is clear as a bell. Hit the strings hard with a pick and she is as loud as they come and that full bass sings like a champ. Spruce top, Brazilian rosewood sides and back.

Blindfold me and I doubt I could identify the wood on a guitar based on a recording. So it all comes down to you (or your friend).

[CelticDude]

My guitar teacher, a rather good classical player who also did jazz, blues and rock, is convinced that the choice of woods doesn't matter nearly as much as how the instrument it made, especially how it's braced. One man's opinion, but certainly an informed one.

[ccravens]

Not good advice, IMO.

I don't think the salesman's over-generalizations are very credible.

In theory OR practice.

[Mandoplumb]

How about the back. How many hours have been wasted discussing the difference in Brazilian and Indian rosewood?

[Mandobart]

My favorite instruments have Western Redcedar or Redwood tops. I've found these to have a warm, mellow sound, but still capable of volume and projection. My 21" WRC oval hole OM (built by Tom "TJ" Jessen) is loud and projects very well. I use a 2 mm Wegen most of the time except when I finger pick. It sounds clear either way. My WRC hybrid F4 by Sonny Morris is a pretty good ensemble mando, capable of good projection. Again I'm usually picking with. 2 mm Wegen.

My loudest instrument by far is a spruce topped Altamira GJ guitar, and it's all about the bracing there. I've never heard a flat picked guitar capable of cutting through at a jam; I don't care if you're talking Martins, Gibsons, etc. Mandos, banjos, fiddles can do it. And my Gypsy Jazz guitar can. But we all have to back off a lot to let the BG guitar solo be heard.

[Hudmister]

I've never heard a flat picked guitar capable of cutting through at a jam; I don't care if you're talking Martins, Gibsons, etc. Mandos, banjos, fiddles can do it. And my Gypsy Jazz guitar can. But we all have to back off a lot to let the BG guitar solo be heard.

You are right about that, it is the truth.

[Petrus]

Certainly a pick is going to generate a louder response than just fingerpicking. Guitar jazz uses picks, often on amped archtops, though that's a different beast again and complicates the equation. But I've seen both flattops (Django style) and archtop (Charlie Christian style) used. And they really dig into those strings too! It's a style that translates well to the mandolin. :mandosmiley:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6uXGSTfz_4

[Mandobart]

Django's Sel-Mac's weren't actually flat topped; there is a slight pliage to the top, a tradition still continued by most gypsy-jazz guitar builders. Also most GJ players use very heavy picks, 3 - 5 mm. Cedar has been used for a few GJ guitars as well. They're still loud as hell.

[Scott L]

I think the salesman's statements are bogus. Many great fingerpicking guitarists have played large bodied, spruce-topped guitars. I recently quit playing large-bodied dreadnoughts because of a shoulder problem, but I've played them for many years and found they are great for both flatpicking and finger style. I played a Martin HD-28 for years and it was a great fingerstyle guitar, especially for open tunings. One of my favorites, Michael Hedges, used a D-28 extensively for both finger and flatpicking. I've also always greatly admired Joni Mitchell's incredible playing, and she has used rosewood/spruce dreadnoughts extensively over the years. I consider spruce-topped guitars more versatile, and are well-suited for the guitarist who both fingerpicks and flatpicks. I currently have a Collings OM-2H (EIR/sitka), which is extremely comfortable to play and sounds great with a pick or fingers.

[pheffernan]

Your friend would do well to play many guitars and go with the instrument which feels best ergonomically and whose voice speaks to his heart. Once he zeros in on a particular guitar, my suggestion would be to sit and play it for an extended period of time

I've been thinking about this wonderful piece of advice for the last day, and it applies to mandolins or any musical instrument equally as well as guitar. There have been those whose voices I've loved but not their ergonomics, a constant frustration when you've played one that really fits. And there have been others that have supplied the ergonomics but underdelivered on the voice, a profound disappointment once you've heard that tone. When you find one that feels best ergonomically and whose voice speaks to your heart -- one that you wouldn't change in any fundamental way -- well then, there's only one thing to do: sit and play it for an extended period of time, certainly prior to but more importantly after purchase.

[fatt-dad]

What about the wood used for bracing?

I'm going with bogus advice. Maybe not wrong but misleading. Other variables in play.

f-d

[foldedpath]

What about the wood used for bracing?

Irrelevant, I think, because the wood species commonly used for bracing are all chosen for the same structural qualities of stiffness and light weight. You're probably hearing more sonic difference from the various patterns used for bracing -- X-bracing, Ladder, Fan, etc. -- than you are from the choice of wood (assuming it's one of the commonly used varieties known to work well).

The bracing material doesn't even have to be wood. My cedar-topped Holst nylon string guitar is braced partially with wood, but also with a carbon fiber lattice that allows the top to be very thin and responsive. I believe Greg Smallman was the first (or one of the first) to start using that method.

[fatt-dad]

regarding bracing, I left out pattern. Regarding wood, there are various thicknesses (widths?). I don't know enough to really speak on the matter, but know that it often is different than the top wood. I bet it's usually quarter sawn with the grain perpendicular. Then again. . .

No expert here.

f-d

[allenhopkins]

Lotsa times, sales personnel will offer quasi-authoritative suggestions just to cut down the prospective buyer's range of choices ("Jeez, is he gonna try every guitar in the store?"), or to direct the buyer the way the salesperson wants to go.

If I buyer goes in with some idea of brand (you've said it's Santa Cruz), body size -- related to playing comfort rather than tone -- as well as price, then "playing every guitar in the store" that meets those criteria is what I'd recommend.

Each piece of wood is different, some subtly, some obviously. Generalizations about the different tonal characteristics of tone woods, body sizes etc. can founder under a sea of exceptions. Your friend's only buying one guitar, so overall statistical differences as to spruce vs. cedar, deep body vs. shallow, etc., can only point in general directions.

I'd have the "helpful" salesman bring me a half-dozen Santa Cruzes that were in my price range, and start from there. If you can find a store with a half-dozen...

[pops1]

I used to fingerpick a koa topped guitar and now a mahogany top, both were small and were available many years ago. 1924 Martin 028K and a 1928 Martin 2-17. Smaller bodied guitars were around long before dreadnaughts by decades and are chosen for finger style because of the balance of sound. Nothing better than a small bodied 12 fret guitar for finger style, not to say any guitar can't be player finger style. Wider neck helps and a lot of the older smaller guitars were just that. I don't think spruce or cedar which each has their specific sounds and break in times. Cedar sounding good right away, but not changing that much and spruce a little tight when new, but responding very much to playing and opening up. Any wood works for nearly anything, there are a wealth of wonderful guitars out there that can respond to strumming, playing with picks or fingers and they can all sound good. Personal preference plays a big part of each decision, but i feel most guitars if well built can sound good weather played finger style, flat picked or bare fingers. If it is resonant play lighter, but it's all about adapting to each guitar after all.

I usually don't carry on this way, but had a few wines. :-)

[UsuallyPickin]

Well .... everything makes a difference and we all do love to debate how much that difference is .... technique will always have a hand ..hahaha .. in how any instrument sounds. What that wanted sound is exhibits an entirely personal choice. Materials , oh yes, Mahogany won't sound like Rosewood or Maple tops of different Spruce woods have an impact so I would expect Cedar to also. Bracing patterns , brace mass , have noticeable impact so why not material to a lesser degree. Shape / size .... nut and saddle material and do we go on and on about strings and picks ... We all have looked or are still looking for "that" guitar ........ I found mine ...... enjoy the hunt and be careful how fast you let one go . They are hard to get back...... R/