Snakehead and Paddlehead years?

[Eddie Sheehy]

Anyone know what years in the 20's the Snakeheads came out? Did they replace Paddleheads or were they concurrent? I have a 1924 Snakehead A and a 1924 Paddlehead H1.

[terzinator]

I remember asking this same question, and not coming away confident about an exact answer. But I'll hunt down the thread.

Concurrent seemed to be the thing, because they went back to Paddles sometime after the Loar era.

edit: here's my thread:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?107047-Loar-Era-A-s-why-some-snakeheads-and-some-paddleheads

and another I found:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?83360-decline-of-the-snakehead-speculations-why&highlight=snakehead+paddlehead

[pheffernan]

As I posted in Chris' first link, my understanding is that the snakehead transitioned in on mandolins during 1922 and transitioned out in 1925, but I don't recall its use with mandolas during that era. Where did you happen upon the 1924 H1? Since missing out on one at a Skinner auction last year http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2767B/lots/2?, I have only seen the worn one at Lark Street http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html and the one at Carter Vintage http://www.cartervintage.com/mandopage/gibsonmandolins/gibsonmandolins.html#h1

[Eddie Sheehy]

I lucked across it on EBAY. There were no other bidders... It's a blacktop. Actually both were from Ebay and blacktops...

[Joe Spann]

The earliest "snakehead" Gibson mandolins which I have seen are from batch 11692 (produced in June 1922). This was a group of style A mandolins with the Sheraton Brown tops and truss rods.

The latest "snakehead" Gibson mandolins which I have seen are from batch 8878 (produced in December 1927). This was also a group of style A mandolins with black tops.

However, I have also seen a "snakehead" mandolin with a serial number which indicates that it shipped in 1929. I don't know the FON on this instrument, so I can't say when it was produced. I would think it was simply a leftover from one of the final 1927 batches.

As far as I can see from the collected data, "paddlehead" Gibson mandolins were produced concurrently with "snakeheads" throughout this period.

Joe Spann

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Has anybody ever seen a white topped snake head? I'm aware that the A3s were dropped in '23 (FON 11784), but they were all paddle heads it seems.

[pheffernan]

Has anybody ever seen a white topped snake head? I'm aware that the A3s were dropped in '23 (FON 11784), but they were all paddle heads it seems.

I believe that the A3 paddleheads were replaced in the lineup by the A2Z snakeheads, but fatt-dad has considered having Wayne Henderson build him one, and Mike Black seems confident in his ability to produce one.

[terzinator]

Does anyone have any idea what the perception of the two peghead styles were, at that time?

I mean, now, I'd say that Snakeheads are much more desirable and cool. (Might just be me, but I'd guess not.) But it seems like the overwhelming majority of Gibson mandolins back in the day were Paddleheads. (Yeah, there was the Loar period -- and a bit after --when BOTH were made, but before and after, it was all Paddleheads.)

So, were Paddleheads more popular? Did people think they looked cooler, or fancier? Did people think Snakeheads were less desirable because they skimped on the amount of wood used on the headstock?

Did Gibson go back to Paddleheads just because they felt the Snakeheads were a "Lloyd Loar" thing, and they wanted to pretend his tenure never happened?

[Marty Jacobson]

Let's not even get into tuning machine spacing. I recently ran into a later F-4 with pre-Loar spacing and an earlier A model with Loar spacing. Go figure.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Does anyone have any idea what the perception of the two peghead styles were, at that time?

I mean, now, I'd say that Snakeheads are much more desirable and cool. (Might just be me, but I'd guess not.) But it seems like the overwhelming majority of Gibson mandolins back in the day were Paddleheads. (Yeah, there was the Loar period -- and a bit after --when BOTH were made, but before and after, it was all Paddleheads.)

So, were Paddleheads more popular? Did people think they looked cooler, or fancier? Did people think Snakeheads were less desirable because they skimped on the amount of wood used on the headstock?

Did Gibson go back to Paddleheads just because they felt the Snakeheads were a "Lloyd Loar" thing, and they wanted to pretend his tenure never happened?

I'd guess Gibson went back to paddle heads, because a lot of wide neck/paddle head neck blanks were left on the shelves at a time, when they introduced the snake head pattern. In the late '20s Gibson may have simply started using up over produced parts from pre snake head years. Same may be true for a set of tuners occasionally, which were usually installed (and the holes drilled) just prior to shipping.

[hank]

Do all the Paddlehead models have the wide necks including those that were built with truss rods during the Loar and post Loar years? If Gibson only narrowed the necks of non paddleheads(my 23 F4 has the smaller neck) this and cost could have been more important to the buyer back then than headstock shape. Along those same lines didn't the snakehead A juniors have the wider necks without a truss rod. To me narrowing the neck makes the instrument much easier to play but many prefer the wider necks today and perhaps they did back then as well.

[danb]

As far as we've seen, there were never snakehead whiteface A3s, or snakehead H1/H2 mandolas

[danb]

As far as I can see from the collected data, "paddlehead" Gibson mandolins were produced concurrently with "snakeheads" throughout this period.

Joe Spann

That's interesting Joe- I would have assumed there would be a cutoff FON on a paddlehead batch with a few later serials/hold-outs.. but not too many new ones produced after the first couple batches of snakeheads were out the door?


Is that in line with what you have seen, or does it look like FON groups of paddleheads produced in '23/'24 as well?

Most paddlehead+truss rod group in serials under 74000 or so, and then it's almost only snakeheads from serials 73000-80000..

[pheffernan]

As far as we've seen, there were never snakehead whiteface A3s, or snakehead H1/H2 mandolas

Or, as far as I know, a documented blacktop A2Z with that designation written on the label.

[danb]

Or, as far as I know, a documented blacktop A2Z with that designation written on the label.

Correct- we've never seen one. Some of the "a3" tops (b/w binding ring) have shown up with black finish, but the catalog "a2z" is blond finish!

Snakeheads in general weren't very loyal to catalog specs. You'll see variants with tortoiseshell back binding.. some with silkscreened peghead logos, some adding or missing other "floor sweep parts".

[terzinator]

and the snakes all had thinner necks than the paddles?

[danb]

and the snakes all had thinner necks than the paddles?


nut width is 1 1/4" on paddles, 1" on snakes

Truss rod paddle heads (or concurrent F2/F4s) often sound as good as the really good snakeheads- filling a nice niche for people who like the tone of the snakeheads but prefer wider necks :)

[terzinator]

nut width is 1 1/4" on paddles, 1" on snakes
Wow. A quarter-inch. That's a country mile when you're talking mandolin necks.

I notice plenty of difference between wide-nut and standard-nut Collings, and that's only 1/16".

[hank]

Dan are you saying some of the Loar and post Loar truss rod F2/F4's retained the 1 1/4" neck width and some did not? Is the A Junior neck width 1 1/4" width or 1"?

Maybe why we are seeing this sort of variety is Gibson working with the preferences of instructor/salesmen across the country requesting what they think will sell best in their local.

[danb]

I think it was a cut-off. A batch was made and a few shipped later.. but I believe it went from wider necks to slender necks.

The interesting part I was trying to point out was that there are truss rod instruments with the wider necks from (probably) late '22/early '23

I don't think they they were manufactured concurrently, probably some parts were used up. I'd be quite curious to see any FON data correlated to the peghead shape/neck width of course, that would be much more convincing proof!

[Eddie Sheehy]

nut width is 1 1/4" on paddles, 1" on snakes

Truss rod paddle heads (or concurrent F2/F4s) often sound as good as the really good snakeheads- filling a nice niche for people who like the tone of the snakeheads but prefer wider necks :)

I have 2 '24 Snakes - a blacktop with a 1" nut and a Sheraton Brown with a 1 1/16" nut. Dan, I'll send you pics and serial/FON numbers, also of the '24 H1 and a couple of teens instruments - an A and a K2.
My teens A has a 1 3/16" nut.

[mandroid]

OK when was the worm under to the worm over tuner change, standard?

[Hendrik Ahrend]

#76905, a late '24 A1, seems to be the first with worm over, telling from the MA. Other A-type models were a bit later. The F5s didn't change before 1931 (#87346 according to the MA and Joe Spann). F5 #79719, shipped in 1926, seems like an exception.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have 2 '24 A Snakeheads - the earlier Blackface one(78701) is worm-under and the later Sheraton Brown one(87449) is worm-over.
My 79624 H1 is worm-under.

[Eddie Sheehy]

#76905, a late '24 A1, seems to be the first with worm over, telling from the MA. Other A-type models were a bit later. The F5s didn't change before 1931 (#87346 according to the MA and Joe Spann;). F5 #79719, shipped in 1926, seems like an exception.

In the MA that 76905 mandolin looks like a worm-under. The description doesn't specify whether it is or not.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

In the MA that 76905 mandolin looks like a worm-under. The description doesn't specify whether it is or not.

Well, maybe, maybe not, #76916 is definitely worm over.:)

[pheffernan]

I have 2 '24 A Snakeheads - the earlier Blackface one(78701) is worm-under and the later Sheraton Brown one(87449) is worm-over. My 79624 H1 is worm-under.

What's the FON on 87449? That serial number seems awfully late for a '24: http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?all:74:

[Eddie Sheehy]

Sorry, it's 77449. The FON is 1124 and what could be a 4 or an A?
The Blackface is 78701 and FON 8024

That makes the Sheraton Brown one(worm-over) earlier than the Blackface (worm-under)...