Do I need a bowlback?

[Tezzerh]

I love my Eastman 305, but it isn't quite giving me the sound I want when I play certain tunes which need lots of tremolo. Songs like Isle Of Capri and Return To Sorrento. Very Italian, obviously, so I reckon they cry out for a traditional Italian mandolin, i.e. a bowlback, like the one my late Dad had many decades ago. (I wonder whatever happened to that mandolin?) So do I need a bowlback, or is it just MAS biting hard? I've already gone through a crazy stage of wanting a banjo mandolin - sorry to use the B word! And an octave mandolin would be rather nice. The Weber of my dreams is haunting me, too. Do I keep saving for that or go for a much more affordable bowlback now in order to get the sound I want? Will it give me the sound I want for those Neapolitan melodies?:confused:

[Dan Co1e]

Try playing a mandolin with an oval sound hole.

[T.D.Nydn]

First,thanks for not mentioning the B word,next,it might be partly MAS,which I don't see as a fatal disease,just got to learn how to live with it.the bowlback probably won't give you that big a difference in sound,but it makes the playing experience authentic every time you pick it up.as far as bowlbacks are concerned,I'm in love with those Martin style 5's,who wouldn't want one of those?

[JeffD]

I love the sound of a good bowl back. And the experience of playing one also, is magical.

A good bowl back played well has a distinct sound IMO not easily achieved in other ways. Whether it is the iconic sound you are searching for is a separate question.

There are many many bowlback videos to check out.


You will always be fighting MAS. You will always, no matter what you already own, have one or more that you really really want, and one or more that you kind of want, and a crisis of priorities when the second ones become available before the first.

[DavidKOS]

I love the sound of a good bowl back. And the experience of playing one also, is magical.

A good bowl back played well has a distinct sound IMO not easily achieved in other ways. Whether it is the iconic sound you are searching for is a separate question.



Do you need a bowlback for Italian music? No but it sure makes it better.

Sarcastically my first response is "Of course you need a bowlback. Everyone should have at least one REAL mandolin."

I do see that is a bit harsh, but I do love bowlbacks and I think they sound best for Italian music, although I've heard fine performances on archtop mandolins.

When you do get a bowlback, also get some thinner, stiff, pointy picks too

[brunello97]

Do you need a bowlback for Italian music? No but it sure makes it better.

Sarcastically my first response is "Of course you need a bowlback. Everyone should have at least one REAL mandolin."

I do see that is a bit harsh, but I do love bowlbacks and I think they sound best for Italian music, although I've heard fine performances on archtop mandolins.

When you do get a bowlback, also get some thinner, stiff, pointy picks too

Check out Tony Flores's recordings for great sounding work of the Italian mandolin classics played on an import A model. Also Gus Garelick from the Hot Frittatas (on a Gibson A50). Matteo Casserino also played a Gibson. I'm still chasing their tone and tremolo.

Good quality US made bowlbacks are some of the best $/quality values still available. Lots of dreck out there as well. If you are looking for an "Italian" sound--seek out a Vega bowlback. They were about the lightest built of the US makers and have some of that 'shimmering sound' that one gets from nice Italian mandolins.

Jeff is right. Playing a bowlback is a delightful experience in its own right.

The either / or question is completely boring to me. If you love the mandolin you should have a bowlback. And an archtop. And a canted top. And a solid body electric :cool:

Mick

[Petrus]

I've got an S.S. Stewart which is enjoyable but more of a novelty. I've gone through several vintage bb's and this has been the only one that stays in tune. The main question with a bb is if you want to go vintage or new. There are several new makers (Eastman being one of them, iirc) but I don't know which makers are the best.

If you go really vintage we're talking friction pegs, which can be a major pain as well.

[k0k0peli]

Grandpa Harry played Neapolitan tunes on his circa-WWI Guckert Duplex banjo-mandolin (now mine). Uncle Luc played a slightly newer deep bowlback (now warped), probably to counter Grandpa's excesses. (They were the Beneto side of the family; the Carter side played guitars and fiddles.) That duplex rim mellows the tone greatly, as does the ancient thick calfskin head, and a bandanna stuffed under the strings behind the bridge. To me, it sounds Neapolitan. But I'm going deaf, so go figure. :)

Should every mando-junkie own a bowlback? Of course! And I'm going to Venice and Naples next year -- maybe I'll get lucky.

[crisscross]

Try playing a mandolin with an oval sound hole.
I've got a Pomeroy A2 that I really like, but for playing classical, to my ears my Suzuki M-6O bowlback sounds more appropriate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5up4T6-_Kzw
Don't know about the UK, but here in Germany a used Suzuki MD-60 can be bought for about 300€. Getting one was one of my best investments so far.
It adds some pizza-napoli-feeling even to songs of catalan descent.;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1JFvSsaAJg

[MysTiK PiKn]

Every time I play one, or try, it ends up flipping itself upside down. I don't own one, and they don't like me. A friend has a really old one, had some repairs done, turned out nice. But it still flips upside down, or sideways; it won't stay still long enough. I keep telling him to get a strap on it. But it apparently doesn't like him either. It hangs on the wall, or leans in a corner. No one plays it.

I don't need one. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Some value them highly. Others will sell them at any price. Really, I don't understand. But I will be ok. Thanks.

[Jim Garber]

If you go really vintage we're talking friction pegs, which can be a major pain as well.

Huh? From late 19th and later vintage bowlbacks used geared tuners. Friction pegs maybe in the 18th century.

[brunello97]

Huh? From late 19th and later vintage bowlbacks used geared tuners. Friction pegs maybe in the 18th century.

I can deal with the friction pegs, Jim, all my 18th century mandolins keep flipping over on me.

Mick

[Jeff Mando]

Plenty of sweet deals out there for bowlbacks. Certainly a buyer's market. A quick glance at eBay's completed sales showed a ton of 'em for under $200, with many under $100. If you wanna spend $500 you can get a real museum piece. Still a bunch of nice ones out there.

OTOH, if you get tired of it, resale might be slow.....

[DavidKOS]

Check out Tony Flores's recordings for great sounding work of the Italian mandolin classics played on an import A model. Also Gus Garelick from the Hot Frittatas (on a Gibson A50). Matteo Casserino also played a Gibson. I'm still chasing their tone and tremolo.

.......

Jeff is right. Playing a bowlback is a delightful experience in its own right.



Fine players sound good on any sort of mandolin. I'm familiar with both players.


Every time I play one, or try, it ends up flipping itself upside down.

I was at a party with a Greek bouzouki player....both of us had bowlback instruments and no straps. We also played standing up to show someone that asked that a strap is not needed. Sitting, it's even easier to hold a bowl type instrument, but you have to learn how to hold it and let the bowl work for you.

[DavidKOS]

Plenty of sweet deals out there for bowlbacks. Certainly a buyer's market. A quick glance at eBay's completed sales showed a ton of 'em for under $200, with many under $100. If you wanna spend $500 you can get a real museum piece. Still a bunch of nice ones out there.


But you have to beware - many of the old bowlbacks are in need of restoration that can cost more than the value of the instrument on a crowded market.

However with care you can find nice old instruments. Be selective.

[JeffD]

Every time I play one, or try, it ends up flipping itself upside down..

Get some of this stuff. I don't know what they call it. Comes in different colors to match your ensemble. Cut a square foot, put it on your lap, that mandolin is not going anywhere.

[crisscross]

Cut a square foot, put it on your lap, that mandolin is not going anywhere.
Or, if you're not the DIY kind of person, you can order a "Zupfertuch"(picker's cloth). Prevents my bowlback and my domra from flipping itself upside down. http://www.musik-schiller.de/Academy_Zupfertuch_35x35_p224436.html

[Hany Hayek]

There is a big difference in sound between a banjo-mandolin and bowl back. I play both.
You are in the UK and can get your hand on a bowl back at a fair price. I say go for it. When you get used to holding it, you'll even play it standing up, sleeping on your back, walking around with it..
Your only problem could be the scale length. it will be 33 instead of the 35 you are playing. Everyone here say you get used to changing between the 2 fast.
Just make sure when you buy one it is in good playable conditions.

[Beanzy]

The question I would ask is would you appreciate a bowl-back? You're obviously beginning to appreciate the tonal differences between the types of mandolin, now it's jut a question of whether you can identify which of the Sounds you like and which mandolin will give you that. I view the instruments as the medium so this is like asking if you should paint your pictures in watercolour instead of oils. Certain subjects and styles will evoke better images in another medium and it is useful in communicating an idea or feel if you can make that connection in the listeners mind.

I'd also second Hany's comment that the UK is a great place to buy a bowl-back mandolin. They're still woefully under appreciated here by comparison with Italy, Germany and Japan, but there are some absolutely beautiful examples available. That's not going to last long with people like me encouraging others to look here, but I never did know how to look out for my own best interests.

[Jim Garber]

Also bear in mind that all bowlbacks are not alike. There is lots of junk out there or as others have noted ones that need lots of repairs. If you are in the UK look for DeMeglio or Ceccherini mandolins. They might cost you more but the tone will be there. Also they should be set up correctly with appropriate strings.

[multidon]

I just wanted to point out that in the early days of Gibson arch tops they were aggressively marketed as a vast improvement over bowl backs. I even remember a recent thread where someone found an old Gibson ad showing their arch tops chasing bowl backs into the river, or something like that. Maybe someone will re post that for us. It was funny stuff.

Also, in the golden age of mandolins, there was no bluegrass yet. Arch top mandolins, mandolas, cellos, and mandobass were marketed as primarily for use in mandolin orchestras, which played classical music as well as traditional folk tunes, including Italian. So it certainly would not be out of the question to perform Italian music on an arch top mandolin. Far from it.

As pointed out above, an oval hole may give you more of the tone you are looking for. I bet a nice F4 would be great for Italian music.

Also, many bowl backs have a shorter 13 inch scale, compared with 14 inch for most modern mandolins. That can require some adjustment period.

[DavidKOS]

I just wanted to point out that in the early days of Gibson arch tops they were aggressively marketed as a vast improvement over bowl backs. I even remember a recent thread where someone found an old Gibson ad showing their arch tops chasing bowl backs into the river, or something like that. Maybe someone will re post that for us. It was funny stuff.

Also, in the golden age of mandolins, there was no bluegrass yet. Arch top mandolins, mandolas, cellos, and mandobass were marketed as primarily for use in mandolin orchestras, which played classical music as well as traditional folk tunes, including Italian. So it certainly would not be out of the question to perform Italian music on an arch top mandolin. Far from it.


Indeed you can get a nice sound from Gibson-style mandolins.....even for Italian and classical mandolin music.

However, the one world market that has NOT succumbed to the archtop mandolin is the Italian and classical world, where a good bowlback is still considered to be preferred over archtops.

Those Gibson ads were pretty effective in convincing people that the new-fangled mandolins were "better", rather than just a new different voice. Add to it the revival of interest in mandolin that BG music has caused, of course based on archtop mandolins, that the current mandolin market is skewed far to the side of the archtop instrument.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=119185&d=1399997979

[crisscross]

Also, many bowl backs have a shorter 13 inch scale, compared with 14 inch for most modern mandolins. That can require some adjustment period.
The shorter scale length in addition to a smaller string gauge is another factor responsible for the slightly different sound of a bowlback. Less string tension results in a somewhat sweeter sound.

[Carl Robin]

My first mandolin was a 1920's bowl back with family history. When it broke--due to old age, I got the first mandolin available. It was a flat back. I loved being able to go on practicing, but missed the bowl back. When I got another bowl back, after time had gone by, with more practice and experience, and compared the two side by side it was an easy decision. And for me, the flat back wins. So, do you need a bowl back? Yes, sounds like it. I wouldn't part with mine. It comes out now and then. Can't say I need it though.

[Martin Jonas]

Also bear in mind that all bowlbacks are not alike. There is lots of junk out there or as others have noted ones that need lots of repairs. If you are in the UK look for DeMeglio or Ceccherini mandolins. They might cost you more but the tone will be there. Also they should be set up correctly with appropriate strings.

I'll second that. These two great Neapolitan makers sold most of their output in the UK during the big mandolin boom from about 1895-1910 and have been sitting in their thousands in people's attics ever since. They regularly show up on Ebay UK and sell for very reasonable prices considering their quality. De Meglios were sold in greater numbers and are therefore easier to find. With a bit of patience you should be able to get one in good condition for around GBP200. Ceccherinis are a bit more rare and were also the more expensive instruments at the time, so expect to pay a bit more and/or search longer.

As with all Ebay finds, the problem is that condition is difficult to assess from photos and sellers tend not to know anything about mandolins. So, while you can get good deals cheap, there is a risk.

As an aside, I see that the OP is in Lancashire. If you're interested in Italian repertoire and in bowlbacks, and are within reach of the Wirral, you are welcome to join us in the Wirral Mandoliers for our weekly rehearsals/classical jam session in Wallasey. We play a mix of classical, Italian and folk repertoire and have hundreds of multipart arrangements that we mix-and-match as the fancy takes us. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

Martin

[JeffD]

When I was first introduced to the mandolin, it was a bowlback. I fell in love with the thing. It was the perfect anti-guitar for a budding young contrarian like me.

When my father, seeing my enthusiasm, bought be a mandolin, he got me a Terada (Japanese made economy A style with F holes and a garish sunburst) from a television repair shop / music store. I was a little heartbroken because I wanted a bowl, but I did like it, and soon enough loved it, and played that thing for many years.

It was many many years later that I finally acquired a playable bowl, and what a thrill just to see my own hand holding that thing.

[JeffD]

I just wanted to point out that in the early days of Gibson arch tops they were aggressively marketed as a vast improvement over bowl backs..

This campaign had a lot of traction. Even today I have seen some websites and ads referring to bowlbacks as "old fashioned" mandolins. One ad I saw divided the whole world of mandolins into old fashioned bowlbacks, A styles, and F styles (used by professionals).

[mandopops]

I go along with Gibson Oval-hole Mandolins for Italian. I was in an Italian group for a couple of years and all of us played Gibson Ovals, F's or A's. Sounded terrific.
multidon just posted "bet an F4 would sound great for Italian", I know 1st hand they do.
Mr. Vicari didn't care for "The Gibs", but I think that was just the F5 style. He had an Gibson oval Mandola.
Don't hesitate to get a Bowl-back, tho.
Joe B

[Scot63]

I love my two. Next one I consider might come from David Hynds, who, as all the aficianados here know, repairs or rebuilds and sells them. With the exchange rate on the pound so low right now (he's located in England), he's got a number that would be inexpensive: http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolins_for_sale.htm

[Bob A]

There is a lot of difference between a Gibson mandolin and a bowlback; they are far apart tonally.

Some of the lightly-built flatback instruments might more closely approximate the bowlback sound, but for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry.

Actually, they are charming, pleasant instruments to play, and are not terribly expensive. I favor early 20th century Italian examples, but modern ones can be just as good, and even better sometimes. There are American bowlbacks available as well, usually at decent prices, since the US bowlbacks are not much known or sought by the Europeans or Japanese, which is where the main interest in these mandolins exists.

Anyone with enough interest in the variety of mandolin types and tones available, especially if he has an interest in Italian music, ought to consider acquiring one. It's a valid expression of MAS, and takes you back to the roots of the instrument.

The bowlback treble is much brighter and sparkling than the carved Gibsonesque mandolins, while the bass has none of the guitar-like presence of the Gibsons. String gauge is also considerably lighter, which makes a difference tonally.

Unless you are knowledgeable or lucky, it can be tricky getting your hands on a good one from sources like ebay. However, there is plenty of help to be found below in the Classical section, even a "Bowlbacks of Note" thread where instruments that appear on the market are discussed.


Or, to put it in a word, yes. You need a bowlback.

[DavidKOS]

Some of the lightly-built flatback instruments might more closely approximate the bowlback sound, but for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry.

Actually, they are charming, pleasant instruments to play, and are not terribly expensive.
...... takes you back to the roots of the instrument.

The bowlback treble is much brighter and sparkling than the carved Gibsonesque mandolins
.......
Or, to put it in a word, yes. You need a bowlback.

You guys heard the man, you DO need a real mandolin!

[brunello97]

Fine players sound good on any sort of mandolin. I'm familiar with both players.


I was a bowl snob for awhile myself. Then I heard Gus play "Speranze Perdute" on his A50. Opened my ears and my mind.

My days of ".....for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry." were over. Sorry, Bob.

The mandolin can make a difference. Your technique and feeling are what really matters.

I love playing bowlbacks. I'll let you snobs ;) fight it out as to whether they are better or not.

Mick

[Bob A]

I was a bowl snob for awhile myself. Then I heard Gus play "Speranze Perdute" on his A50. Opened my ears and my mind.

My days of ".....for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry." were over. Sorry, Bob.

The mandolin can make a difference. Your technique and feeling are what really matters.

I love playing bowlbacks. I'll let you snobs ;) fight it out as to whether they are better or not.

Mick

Ouch!

Aside from being shocked and, yes, broken-hearted, I still maintain that there is a specific bowlback tonality, and that the music developed around this class of mandolin deserves the opportunity to be played on one.

I don't say it is necessary.

The local Classical radio station keeps playing Scarlatti sonatas that are recorded on piano. That's fine, but the harpsichord is their proper medium.

The bluegrassers on the board would be displeased with their music played on a bowlback, but of course it can be done. Buy why?

I forgive you, Mick. We all stray from the fold, from time to time, and who's to say it isn't a valuable experience? But don't forget, we are put here to be vectors of MAS.

[brunello97]

Ouch!

Aside from being shocked and, yes, broken-hearted, I still maintain that there is a specific bowlback tonality, and that the music developed around this class of mandolin deserves the opportunity to be played on one.

I don't say it is necessary.

The local Classical radio station keeps playing Scarlatti sonatas that are recorded on piano. That's fine, but the harpsichord is their proper medium.

The bluegrassers on the board would be displeased with their music played on a bowlback, but of course it can be done. Buy why?

I forgive you, Mick. We all stray from the fold, from time to time, and who's to say it isn't a valuable experience? But don't forget, we are put here to be vectors of MAS.

Bob, like I used to tease Eugene: you're a bowlback snob, but you're our bowlback snob. :) I do also appreciate your advocacy for well made cant-top / flat back mandolins of which I have a few that I delight in. The spruce / rosewood mix is wonderful.

BTW, I do have a slightly oversized bowl (ostensibly from Battle Creek ?!) that I tune as CGDA. Love to play "Jerusalem Ridge" on it. All those great bass runs now get some unanticipated tremolo--which is why I flipped over Gus's version of "Speranze" in the first place.

There's no "why", there just "is".

One of my greatest delights is to sit with my Vinaccia, Gibson and Leland and play through a set of old Italian songs and hearing what each instrument requires of my playing and extracts from the music.

Mick

[DavidKOS]

I was a bowl snob for awhile myself. ......
The mandolin can make a difference. Your technique and feeling are what really matters.

I love playing bowlbacks. I'll let you snobs ;) fight it out as to whether they are better or not.




Ouch!

Aside from being shocked and, yes, broken-hearted, I still maintain that there is a specific bowlback tonality, and that the music developed around this class of mandolin deserves the opportunity to be played on one.

I don't say it is necessary.





One of my greatest delights is to sit with my Vinaccia, Gibson and Leland and play through a set of old Italian songs and hearing what each instrument requires of my playing and extracts from the music.


I am a bowl snob too, but do like my flatback mandolins too. I played a F copy in an Italian group about a decade ago, and it worked fine, I just like the feel and sound of a bowlback a bit better.

As far as instrument specific music - sure the composer's intention is often best served on the period or specific instrument intended, but the music world would be much poorer without transcriptions and adaptations of music for instruments that were not the intended ones.

I love Bach played on a harpsichord, clavichord or pipe organ, but wouldn't miss a good piano performance of his music, and more people play Bach on piano than period instruments.

So yes I'm a bowlback snob, but not enough to let it get in the way.

And I'd rather play on a good archtop than a bad bowlback....but a good bowlback is such a pleasure.

[allenhopkins]

If you're an informed and careful buyer, there are so many vintage bowl-backs available, at reasonable prices, that there's little reason not to get a bowl-back, even if it's just to see whether its distinctive sound and somewhat non-ergonomic shape merit a place in your mandolin arsenal.

Now, I spent a few years in pursuit of a vintage bowl-back mandocello to round out my bowl-back family; that was a different story, 'cause there aren't many around. Finally scored an old Waldo, to go with my Washburn bowl-back mandola, and my B&J Victoria and Merrill bowl-back mandolins. I'm going to be doing an "antique instrument show-and-tell" for a historical society tomorrow, and will be glad to have the range of bowl-back instruments.

[Tezzerh]

Some really interesting, indeed fascinating stuff here. Thanks all. Now I know I definitely DO need a bowlback! A couple more queries to follow my original post. Can you fit a strap to a bowlback? And has anyone any views on Suzuki bowlbacks, which seem affordable and look rather nice, too? But how do they sound and play?

[Beanzy]

The Suzukis are normally well built and I have heard a few in the flesh where they held up well enough by comparison with the other instruments in the orchestra. However if I was unfamiliar with what to look for & looking for a mandolin in the UK I'd be looking towards the DeMiglio level vintage ones. Coming new to them you may be better off buying from a competent restorer such as Dave Hynds at http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolins_for_sale.htm. Or our "Tavy" http://jzmaddock.web44.net/restorations.html

Some of those instruments have gone for a price I would consider a fraction of the value you'd get out of playing it and without the headache of wondering if you'd get a lemon by bidding blindly on eBay etc.

[crisscross]

I have two Suzukis, an M-30 with a maple bowl and an M-60 with a rosewood bowl. I like the sound of the M-60 slightly better, it seems a bit rounder. Both are well made and play well. Someone commented that the lacquer is a bit to thick, but that doesn't bother me. I got them both for a third of the new price in almost new condition.
Here's a recording I did with the M-30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7WK-EgTJQ
And the M-60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5zzbWxGmzY
The M-60 sounds a little smoother, but one of the reasons might be the Dogal Calace strings, whereas on the M-30 are GHS phosphor-bronze strings. Well, I wouldn't part with either.

[allenhopkins]

...Can you fit a strap to a bowlback?...

I take a shoelace, or a very thin leather thong, and tie it around the headstock just above the nut, and around the tailpiece. Provides enough support to hold the instrument when standing, and to regulate the neck angle when either standing or sitting.

Easier to deal with the bowl-back's tendency to "roll" while playing, if you're not also using the fretting and picking hands to support it.

[DavidKOS]

Can you fit a strap to a bowlback?


I take a shoelace, or a very thin leather thong, and tie it around the headstock just above the nut, and around the tailpiece. Provides enough support to hold the instrument when standing, and to regulate the neck angle when either standing or sitting.


That works and I've done it for Renn Faires when I was carrying a mandolin all day...but you really do NOT need a strap for general usage with a bowlback mandolin, nor any other for that matter.

[Petrus]

Huh? From late 19th and later vintage bowlbacks used geared tuners. Friction pegs maybe in the 18th century.

Yes, thus "really vintage." They also used gut strings, iirc, like the lute or oud. Here's a nice 1763 Vinaccia ...

134162

[Bob A]

Some really interesting, indeed fascinating stuff here. Thanks all. Now I know I definitely DO need a bowlback! A couple more queries to follow my original post. Can you fit a strap to a bowlback? And has anyone any views on Suzuki bowlbacks, which seem affordable and look rather nice, too? But how do they sound and play?

Congrats on your decision; you will not be disappointed, I trust.

I've seen one guy with a strap on his bowlback, but it was a long time ago and he was German. I didn't care for it. My preference for bowlbacks is for light and lightly-built instruments, which seems to enhance the qualities that you want in a bowlback - or at least, what I want in a bowlback instrument. So they don't tend to weigh you down. Over the years I've worked on developing a sort of shelf-like proturbance just below my ribcage, for the purpose of resting the bowl upon.

A long time ago, decades in fact, before the idea of playing a bowlback personally entered my consiciousness, I wanted to get one for my father, who used to play one in his youth, and had remarked that he wondered what had happened to it. I went out into the world and searched for one locally - there was no internet then. The only one I found was a Suzuki, which I purchased for him.

It was a fairly handsome instrument, built along the lines of a Calace, stout and sturdy. It was OK, I guess, but it didn't compare to the Italian ones I played later, nor yet to the American instruments of quality - high-end Vega, Martin and Larson Bros instruments. I ended up giving it away after he had passed.

I'd say look for an Italian instrument from the time when the mandolin was in flower; get it from someone who knows about such things, like Dave Hynds. The nice thing about the older Italian examples is that those made by decent makers were made to be played, not to serve as tourist trash. Even a plain-Jane Salsedo, DeMeglio, Ceccerini or such will have The Sound, so long as it's in decent shape. The fancier ones may have greater attention to detail and ornamentation, but the liuterias of Napoli had integrity, and made good instruments at all price points.

As you're already in Europe, the Land of the Bowl, you should have opportunities to handle a number of bowlbacks; do so, and pick the one that sings to you.

[brunello97]

A couple nice Spruce / Rosewood flatback mandolins in the classifieds right now for those following the discussion.

I second (or third) Bob's recommendation list for bowls. Another resource in the UK for repairs / restorations / sales is our good friend, John Maddock, who goes by Tavy here. He does exceptionally good looking work. Triangulating a wise purchase between the seller, John and yourself would yield a fine instrument.

Can't say I share the enthusiasm for Suzuki mandolins. Granted, I have only played three, and owned one for awhile. The necks were like Louisville Sluggers (made my Vega feel like a Vinaccia) and the sound was muddy and unresponsive. Others certainly must have had better examples, but a halfway decent Washburn would make a better (and more lovely) alternative in my mind.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

I second (or third) Bob's recommendation list for bowls. Another resource in the UK for repairs / restorations / sales is our good friend, John Maddock, who goes by Tavy here. He does exceptionally good looking work. Triangulating a wise purchase between the seller, John and yourself would yield a fine instrument.

Can't say I share the enthusiasm for Suzuki mandolins.

I agree with Mick on all of those. Check out what John Maddock has for sale -- one of the players in our ensemble bought a De Meglio from John through the Cafe classifieds. Very reasonably priced, sympathetically restored and perfectly set up.

I'm not keen on Suzuki mandolins either, although my Suzuki mandocello is a very nice instrument. A good vintage Italian is the way to go.

As Lancashire is close(ish) to me, you're also welcome to drop by to see/try my bowlbacks (a Ceccherini and an Embergher at the moment).

Martin

[k0k0peli]

I now have a bowlback of sorts. Specifically, a bowlback banjo-cittern. I've finished restringing my fretted 12-string Cümbüş in fifths from C2 to E4 (five courses) -- might add a C5 course when/if I get comfortable with it. The 'bowl' is steel, a foot in diameter and 5.5 inches deep, with a plastic drumhead. No, it hasn't much of a Neapolitan feel. :))

[DavidKOS]

I now have a bowlback of sorts. Specifically, a bowlback banjo-cittern. I've finished restringing my fretted 12-string Cümbüş in fifths from C2 to E4 (five courses) -- might add a C5 course when/if I get comfortable with it. The 'bowl' is steel, a foot in diameter and 5.5 inches deep, with a plastic drumhead. No, it hasn't much of a Neapolitan feel. :))

Those actually work pretty well when you get them adjusted.

Try putting a bit of foam between the strings and the skin by the tailpiece, it kills some discordant overtones.

[k0k0peli]

Those actually work pretty well when you get them adjusted.

Try putting a bit of foam between the strings and the skin by the tailpiece, it kills some discordant overtones.
I have an old sock dedicated to that purpose. Also to keep my palm from being punctured by the flying bridge's sharp corners while fingerpicking. :crying: And I find that, yes, fingering fifth-tuned chords on a 21.5-inch scale axe is a different experience. Even though my fingers span nine inches I must *really* stretch to play stuff that's easy on mandolin. This needs a (for me) whole new approach to playing, sort of like switching from electric bass to guitarrón mexicano. It's an interesting challenge. I'll post a full report on the conversion in another thread.

I'll stay on the lookout for a mandola. Maybe a bowlback mandola? [/me tries to stay on-topic]

[Tavy]

I agree with Mick on all of those. Check out what John Maddock has for sale -- one of the players in our ensemble bought a De Meglio from John through the Cafe classifieds. Very reasonably priced, sympathetically restored and perfectly set up.

That's good to hear ;)

I don't currently have any bowls for sale or I might have chimed in.... coming up shortly though will be a 12-string (mandriola) bowlback, and a Checcherini that only arrived here yesterday so I haven't even evaluated it yet.


I'm not keen on Suzuki mandolins either, although my Suzuki mandocello is a very nice instrument. A good vintage Italian is the way to go.

Interesting, I actually grew to quite like the Suzuki I had - though it was a little quiet - perhaps more for playing at home than projecting when out and about. As many of you will know, I have a serious soft spot for the US made bowls, and the Fred Martin (A C Fairbanks) is the only one I really miss - better than either of the Vega's that have passed through IMO.

BTW, IMO you do not actually need a bowlback for this style of music, it depends very much how and where you play. What the bowlbacks do give you is that chirpy treble sound that really projects playing acoustically in larger spaces, and doesn't get in the way of other instruments (guitars for example). What an archtop gives you is bottom end growl for rhythmic playing, or moody solos ;) They are actually much better balanced, and better sounding instruments in isolation... and yet, in an ensemble a bowl can come through better. Like this one using the Fred Martrin for lead:

https://soundcloud.com/john-maddock/ocarolans-dream

[Gan Ainm]

I played in a "working" Italian group for a number of years (you know, dozens of dollars) and loved the bowlback sound and look if I had decent PA mics, since it was soft. I played quite a few and chose a Bruno 20's import over an old Martin for same price because I just liked the sound better- definitely good to play a bunch before you buy. For noisier or mixed style gigs I would default to my Gibson A2 which sounded good but as others pointed out, different. The bowlback is also good for certain reenactment opportunities, i.e periods or settings where the Gibson would not be found. For future MAS lust I do daydream about one of the Carlo Aonzo models, because, you know, it would make me sound just like him…

[Capt. E]

I am also considering (another) a bowlback right now. I love their look and the sound. However, almost every one I have purchased off ebay has had a somewhat bowed neck. Usually not serious and they were still playable to some extent. To get them restored to excellent playable condition would have cost more than the purchase price, so, be careful. Now-a-days, I would prefer to buy one in person, not off ebay. There is one on ebay right now identical to one I used to own (with a bowed neck). http://www.ebay.com/itm/400920963649?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT This one looks very very nice and is probably exactly what I am looking for, but he is asking way more than I would pay. It is a high end model, however.

[JeffD]

I would not say that a bowl back is required, to play classical, but come on, its made for it.

Those fast high notes just shimmering in the air - like fireworks after the initial burst.

But the effect is subtle, and I do love the Bach that has recently been recorded on a Loar signed F5. I think it would be more beautiful yet on a bowl, but I won't quibble.

All that said, there is some transcendent magic going on with those Kerman's. And they are flat tops!

[Tavy]

I am also considering (another) a bowlback right now. I love their look and the sound. However, almost every one I have purchased off ebay has had a somewhat bowed neck. Usually not serious and they were still playable to some extent. To get them restored to excellent playable condition would have cost more than the purchase price, so, be careful. Now-a-days, I would prefer to buy one in person, not off ebay. There is one on ebay right now identical to one I used to own (with a bowed neck). http://www.ebay.com/itm/400920963649?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT This one looks very very nice and is probably exactly what I am looking for, but he is asking way more than I would pay. It is a high end model, however.

That's one peachy looking mandolin... high price though, and they don't make any claims on playability. Not sure that it's a "piece of bluegrass history" either, but who's quibbling? ;)

On prices, it seems to me there are three steps:

* Collectors price, paid for all original mint condition, probably not playable, but it'll be hung on a wall anyway...
* Player price, for something that may be scruffy and/or had substantial repairs, but has been properly repaired and set up by someone who knows what they're doing.
* eBay "attic-find" price. Don't expect it to play well (or at all!). Either you take your chances and fix it up yourself, or you pay someone to make it playable. And yes this may cost more than the purchase price, and yes, you may end up spending more than it's resale value. But... you could still end up with a 100 year old quality bowl back for under £300 all in, compare that to the cost of a quality new instrument and it doesn't look nearly so bad. You should certainly get your money's worth out of it.

[Capt. E]

I think my absolute limit is probably $500 (300 pounds?). I enjoy playing my Gibson A-2 mostly, but a well made, easily played bowl back would be nice and give me a different sound at the old time jams. I adore old vintage instruments and have spent the money bringing several back to good playability, then passing it on to someone else to enjoy. A nice bowl back that I end up keeping will come to me in time, I am sure.

[brunello97]

The action looks pretty grim on the Stahl / Larson. Check out the 3rd to last photo. Too bad, as it is a nice looking instrument.

That said, a neck reset on one of these would be an easier take than what John is probably used to working on Italian bowls. That Larson won't get a nibble at that price and in that condition, nice new strings notwithstanding. The top looks like it has gone through some drying out and alluding to couple of future cracks. Offering half of the $900 should make for a seller happy dance but still need multiple Cs to get it playable.

$500 should get you a nice bowl, Cap'n, if you shop carefully. I'd keep my eyes open for a Vega made / Ditson labeled Victory model. Should go for half that amount and be worth the $900 the brokedown Larson folks are asking for.

Mick

[Tezzerh]

I've enjoyed all the comments to my original post, and am now on the look-out for a bowlback to complement my Eastman 305. Don't think I want to go for an old instrument, though. I would worry it had issues that I could not get sorted. Not easy to find a new one for sale, however. The only one I've found on the web anywhere within easy distance of where I live is an Ozark 2034. I want to be able to try before I buy. Looks nice and it's not a cheapo, but I would welcome any opinions on this mandolin. Anyone got an Ozark 2034 or played one? Is the brand OK?

[Tavy]

I think you will struggle to find a decent new one, unless you shell out lots for an Eastman or a Calace. I've never seen an Ozark bowl, but the brand is very much the bottom end of the market IMO.

[Tezzerh]

Yes, I thought so, Tavy. Not very desirable, then. What about a Suzuki M60, available from Germany? I keep looking at your website but they all seem to be sold!

[Martin Jonas]

I've enjoyed all the comments to my original post, and am now on the look-out for a bowlback to complement my Eastman 305. Don't think I want to go for an old instrument, though. I would worry it had issues that I could not get sorted. Not easy to find a new one for sale, however. The only one I've found on the web anywhere within easy distance of where I live is an Ozark 2034. I want to be able to try before I buy. Looks nice and it's not a cheapo, but I would welcome any opinions on this mandolin. Anyone got an Ozark 2034 or played one? Is the brand OK?

I don't know the Ozark, but looking at the photos at Eagle Music I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole -- this does not look like a quality instrument and the price is utterly outrageous.

I see that Tavy has posted photos and a soundclip of a Ceccherini bowlback he's just restored. If I were you I'd drop him a line to see if it's still available, as it will be vastly superior to both the Ozark and the Suzuki. Vintage ones are a gamble if you buy them directly from Ebay, but having it vetted and setup by somebody who knowns what they're doing will greatly reduce that risk.

Martin

[Tavy]

Martin, it's still available because I've been playing it rather than trying to sell it ;)

Looking at the Ozark, the top looks a lot like the one on my first mandolin - that one was a bargain for £30 new - not so much for the price Eagle Music are asking for theirs!

The Suzuki I had was OK, not nearly as bad as their reputation tends to suggest... though they do have have an over-built bowl, and flimsy neck, which is sort of the wrong way round...

I also notice Thomman has some Matsikas mandolins (http://www.thomann.de/gb/matsikas_mandolin_no_3a.htm?ref=prod_rel_196209_1&sid=96b470dcfd9853242285a8ec4cfb78aa). Setup in the picture looks pretty terrible (when buying from a "box shifter" like Thomman budget for someone to set it up for you), but there's a thread around here somewhere where they seem to be rated OK - certainly for the price, and probably better than Ozark/Musikalia and the like.

[DavidKOS]

I also notice Thomman has some Matsikas mandolins (http://www.thomann.de/gb/matsikas_mandolin_no_3a.htm?ref=prod_rel_196209_1&sid=96b470dcfd9853242285a8ec4cfb78aa). Setup in the picture looks pretty terrible (when buying from a "box shifter" like Thomman budget for someone to set it up for you), but there's a thread around here somewhere where they seem to be rated OK - certainly for the price, and probably better than Ozark/Musikalia and the like.

I have one! The basic Sakis mandolin, and it plays well enough, all I had to do was adjust the bridge intonation. (see avatar, pic is reversed)

I had a job that included dealing with a lot of Sakis bouzoukis and some of their other instruments. It may be a good deal and is certainly less of a crapshoot than a Musikalia.

Sakis makes well-respected "factory" bouzoukis and some mandolins. They are used to bowl back instruments and pretty decent guys to deal with.

That 3a is the next model up from mine, which has no decoration at all. I have this one:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/matsikas_mandolin_no_1.htm

Not a bad price, 288 Euro (app. 322 dollars)

https://images5.static-thomann.de/pics/prod/281422.jpg

[Tezzerh]

In my original post on this thread, I asked 'Do I need a bowlback?' Well, after all the comments, I decided I did need one. In fact, I desperately wanted one! MAS? So I'm getting a Ceccherini restored by Tavy. Can't wait for it to arrive.Will let you know how I get on with it. Thanks for all the helpful, interesting comments.

[brunello97]

In my original post on this thread, I asked 'Do I need a bowlback?' Well, after all the comments, I decided I did need one. In fact, I desperately wanted one! MAS? So I'm getting a Ceccherini restored by Tavy. Can't wait for it to arrive.Will let you know how I get on with it. Thanks for all the helpful, interesting comments.

Fair play to you!

Mick

[Bill Clements]

In fact, I desperately wanted one! MAS? So I'm getting a Ceccherini restored by Tavy.
I envy you! Congrats!
John does terrific work and you've made a great choice. I do not own a bowlback currently (had an Eastman but it was replaced under warranty with something else...long story) but I hope to get one of John's instruments sometime as well. I almost jumped on that cool English Mandolinetto he recently offered here.
Let us know how you like it.