What is Vintage?

[Emmett Marshall]

Is there a specified period of time when an instrument definitely becomes "vintage" or "antique"? I've always wondered about this, but never thought to actually ask anyone until now.

[Bill Snyder]

The subheading for this section of the forum clearly says:
"Discussions of all mandolin family instruments, pre-1945."

[Emmett Marshall]

Right Bill, but that is a heading that defines what this particular forum exists for, yet not necessarily the answer to my question. For example, a 55 Chevy is considered a vintage car - made after 1945. How does this apply in the world of musical instruments?

[allenhopkins]

No rules; I've seen 1970's Asian-made instruments called "vintage." Electric guitars from the '50's are routinely labeled "vintage" as well; so are amplifiers of the same age. Used to roughly equate to pre-WWII, as the forum title implies, but it seems now that "vintage" means "fairly old and expensive." As opposed to just "old."

I'd say that as far as mandolins are concerned, pre-mid-'50's would qualify. But then I see someone mentioning a "vintage Kentucky mandolin" and I know he's talking about a 40-year-old instrument -- which to me is not "vintage."

Pretty loose term, IMHO.

[Bruce Clausen]

Seems to depend on the age of the person using the word, and also the thing itself. A 100-year-old violin is recent, a 20-year old computer is vintage.

But really vintage just means grape harvest, without reference to actual age. A vintage wine is just one whose age you know; should be the same for instruments, cars, or anything else.

[Emmett Marshall]

Thanks Fellas. I had a "feeling" it might be something like this, but I just wasn't sure. I knew the term didn't mean squat to sellers on eBay. I think the pre WWII concept is probably a good perspective on "vintage" then. That's what I'm going to go by for the time being.

[Mandoplumb]

Vintage is anything that is old enough that I can't remember when it was new!

[T.D.Nydn]

I always thought "classic" is 20 years old,,"vintage"is 50 years old and antique is 100 years old...

[JeffD]

In the world of antiques and collectables, "antique" means over 100 years old. That is how I have heard the word used. I have not heard it use in the musical instrument world, except by outsiders and those who deal more in furniture.

In the musical instrument world I wonder if vintage is as well defined across instruments. I mean a "vintage" mandolin would make me think 1920s, certainly before WWII. A vintage guitar seems often to mean 1950s and 60s, meaning what would have been available to the "folk revival".

Outside of musical instruments I hear the word vintage used with wine (of course) and old clothing. Not so much in artifacts or furniture.

[LongBlackVeil]

vintage in the instrument world, is not a certain age range like the word antique when it comes to collectables etc.

a 1970s gilchrist could be called a vintage gilchrist, but a 70s gibson would not be called a vintage gibson. Problem is, there are no real rules to it when it comes to instruments, so everyone is going to say something different.

However i dont think you can just say vintage= this or that many years old

[Capt. E]

Vintage is a general word applied to a particular time, such as Vintage 1960's, Vintage 1920's etc. Or, with wine, it is used very specifically as the year the wine was bottled. On Ebay, it is used for instruments 1980 and older. So, the term "vintage" is extremely variable in usage.
Antique can have particular ages applied to particular items. The official age at which a car becomes an "antique" is 50 years. While traditionally an antique has been something at least 100 years old.
I propose that here on the Cafe you think of an instrument in terms of the decade it was made: vintage 1920's, 1930's etc. Pre WWII seems to be a larger category and that is my personal preference for a definition of vintage.

[AlanN]

Stan Jay said anything 60's and earlier is vintage.

[T.D.Nydn]

Alright,if 60's and earlier is vintage,what do you call 70"s and 80's ? Post vintage? Theryre not "contemporary"...

[Bob A]

"Vintage" is used in the world of wine to indicate a raised level of quality, although it at its most basic merely refers to the year of bottling.

The same word in the musical instrument world is a marketing tool, indicating a raised price. In fairness, there is usually (but not always) a component of increased quality as well.

[barney 59]

ebay defines "vintage" as anything pre 1985 --newer than most of my new stuff. "Pre war" meaning WWll (there have been so many) is where most of the collectible interest in instruments lie.The term vintage to me is pretty abused. It's mostly just a marketing term to get around saying "old" or "used" and is supposed to imply that the instrument has class and quality which the term does not actually mean... and then you'll find it used to describe something like a 1960's Kay. The term properly used could refer to 2014 "vintage" wine. To me the term "vintage" used to describe an instrument is pretty much meaningless other than I get from it the item in question is probably not new--but then I wouldn't mind having a 2015 "vintage" Gilchrist!

[Jeff Mando]

Also the term "vintage" has been taken over by the manufacturers, such as Gibson and Fender, who offer current vintage style models as well as vintage style accessories and strings, making an eBay search for "vintage" almost meaningless, as these new items will show up in a search.

[JeffD]

I have heard that usage with old clothing too - where vintage means "authentic to a defined style or period and or location" like vintage "flapper" or vintage "fin de siècle" Paris. As opposed to a specific number of years old.

[Jeff Mando]

I have heard that usage with old clothing too - where vintage means "authentic to a defined style or period and or location" like vintage "flapper" or vintage "fin de siècle" Paris. As opposed to a specific number of years old.

Yes, like Old Navy. I remember clearly 20+ years ago, getting a flyer in the mail for Old Navy and I looked at it with disbelief. They were manufacturing clothing to look like thrift store clothes. I thought to myself, "why would people go there when they could go to a thrift store?" Turns out, once again, I am not a good barometer of the American buying public.....

[Emmett Marshall]

Hmmmm. Now ya'll got me thinking how I can use all this info to my advantage the next time I see a "Vintage Mandolin" in the classifieds that is only 20 years old, but I'm interested in - "Dear Sir, I may be interested in your somewhat old, used mandolin. I'd like to learn more and see if this Mandolin actually has any real quality or class. Got any pics? Oh yeah, how did you arrive at this asking price?":grin:

[lenf12]

Ahh, so there is a practical reason for your question...for the record, my 2 main mandolins are vintage 1916 and 1956 respectively. Everything else is a 19xx or 20xx <fill in the blank>.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Emmett Marshall]

Knowledge is power Len! :grin::grin::grin: What "are" the 1916 and 1956?

[8ch(pl)]

The 1945 year was assigned to this a number of years ago. I believe that discussion on a Martin 2-15 mandolin that was from the 50's would qualify as a vintage instrument. Some from the 60's as well.

I also believe that the term applies more to American and European instruments. Although recent years have proven that Asian instruments can be of excellent quality, that is because the market demanded that they be such. In the 60's and 70's, there was a flood of often poorly made merchandise whose survival does not qualify them to this column.

[MikeEdgerton]

Apparently vintage and antique instruments were any that were made before I moved to New Jersey in 1980. Amazingly enough, awful instruments that were sold when I was in high school are now sought after vintage instruments with mojo. This is a weird world.

[Capt. E]

I guess vintage is anything older than the year you were born (or at least your earliest memory).

[Jeff Mando]

One of the first books on vintage guitars was the excellent American Guitars by Tom Wheeler. I believe it came out in the early 80's, IIRC. I can't tell you how many hours I spent studying that book--I was convinced--I wanted one--but the book left one unanswered question, "where do I find one?" The good stuff seemed to already be in the collections of players and those "in the know." They were very hard to find, even in the 80's (think of a pre-eBay world, if you can...) Of course, in the 80's, we had 60's Telecasters hanging on the walls of every pawn shop, but who wanted a 60's guitar? Not me! Wheeler had succeeded in showing us the "good stuff" and creating an insatiable desire, later to be known as GAS, MAS, etc.......

[mandroid]

Vintage is the year the wine-grape was Grown, Harvested & Crushed. :whistling:

[Capt. E]

"The importance of vintage may sometimes be exaggerated. For example, New York Times wine columnist Frank J. Prial declared the vintage chart to be dead, writing that "winemakers of the world have rendered the vintage chart obsolete" (Prial), and Bill Marsano wrote that "winemakers now have the technology and skills to make good and even very good wines in undistinguished years" (Marsano)." from Wikipedia

Perhaps this could be thought true for mandolins, guitars etc. Modern instruments are pretty darn good. Even the "cheap" instruments are often better than the low end models of the past.

[Charles E.]

Go to eBay, type in 'vintage mandolin' and see what you get. It is all over the map, from old bowlbacks to brand new Washburns.

[Emmett Marshall]

Go to eBay, type in 'vintage mandolin' and see what you get. It is all over the map, from old bowlbacks to brand new Washburns.

Yeah! That's what got me to ask my question in the first place. I guess the term "vintage" has been rendered meaningless, washed out, overused, and heck...I guess I am vintage too.

[Bertram Henze]

Analysis of my own perception of genuine Vintage shows that it means to me "whatever really is what it looks like". I like things that really are what they look like, for instance:

- polished chrome metal that is really metal and not plastic
- wood that is really wood and not plastic
- buttons that are really pressed and not just touched on a screen
- watches that are all mechanical inside
- bow ties that are knotted and not clipped-on/strapped-on
- steaks that have been cut out of cows, not soy beans

I guess I am vintage, too, except for my steampunk molar fillings...

[barney 59]

Analysis of my own perception of genuine Vintage shows that it means to me "whatever really is what it looks like". I like things that really are what they look like, for instance:

- polished chrome metal that is really metal and not plastic
- wood that is really wood and not plastic
- buttons that are really pressed and not just touched on a screen
- watches that are all mechanical inside
- bow ties that are knotted and not clipped-on/strapped-on
- steaks that have been cut out of cows, not soy beans

I guess I am vintage, too, except for my steampunk molar fillings...

I would have to go along with that ---except for the ties--They made me wear them when I was a little kid and I swore them off! Probably how I came to live in California, I haven't even seen a tie in 30 years! Oh Yah, Jerry made ties--- but I'll bet he never wore one! A lot of them bean steaks around here though!

[JeffD]

Analysis of my own perception of genuine Vintage shows that it means to me "whatever really is what it looks like". I like things that really are what they look like, for instance:

- polished chrome metal that is really metal and not plastic
- wood that is really wood and not plastic
- buttons that are really pressed and not just touched on a screen
- watches that are all mechanical inside
- bow ties that are knotted and not clipped-on/strapped-on
- steaks that have been cut out of cows, not soy beans

I guess I am vintage, too, except for my steampunk molar fillings...

While in general I agree with you I don't mind decorative elements that emulate structural elements no longer needed. For example modern building with decorative columns and keystone arches. I sometimes like the homage to earlier required design elements.

[k0k0peli]

Strictly, 'vintage' just means the grape harvest year. Was it a good, bad, or indifferent year in that locale? Whenever I'm charged and amount between US$14.00 and $21.00, I ask, "Was that a good year?" Not that it matters.

Loosely, 'vintage' is somewhere between antique/ancient (like La Antigua Guatemala) and "oh, that old crap?" When enough old crap is thrown away that's what's left attracts attention, it's vintage.

But I assign vintages to eras. My Kay A-type mando has no number on it, so it's some sort of 'vintage' -- pre-WWII? I dunno. My grandpa's (now my) massive Guckert Duplex banjo-mandolin is definitely WWI-era vintage; my lighter Varsity banjo-uke is probably 1920's vintage. My Ovation 1115 is vintage mid-1970's, pretty old by Ovation standards, pretty new compared to a 1940's Mexican 12-string that was stolen long ago. And my 80-hole Hohner Echo Glockenreine Stimmung harmonica (in A and D) is probably 1920's vintage. (It was my grandpa's, too.) Each of those vintages mean something WITHIN THEIR ERA AND TYPE. Hey, my MiniMoog synth and Toshiba T1100 (early laptop) are vintage, too!

And me? I probably fall into the "oh, that old crap?" category.

[Scott Tichenor]

Is there a specified period of time when an instrument definitely becomes "vintage" or "antique"? I've always wondered about this, but never thought to actually ask anyone until now.

No