Hooked by a vintage Ajr

[trevdog]

Well, the time has come to finally join and post. I've been appreciating the value of the cafe for the past 6 months or so; helping me decide on a good starter instrument, books, and plenty of eye candy to dream and drool over, plus artists to discover.

Yesterday I made my way to the local instrument shop to try out some various picks, and pick up a string winder. While there, I decided I might as well try out some of the different mandos on the wall. The 1925 Gibson Ajr certainly caught my eye (I've never held or played a vintage instrument). Wow! What tone! It had more power than many of the other new models on display (mostly mid-range student models: Breedlove, Eastman, Loar).

The store listed it for $1200, and it certainly seems all original (no mention of case). There is a significant top crack (6+ in.) that has been repaired on the treble side. Repair looks older, and solid, but I can definitely feel it when I run my hand across it. I'm wondering how this might affect the tone (it doesn't seem to) and the value. The instrument looks like it's been fairly well cared for (still has the pick-guard in good shape), and I can't see any other repairs. The neck seemed only slightly bowed, but it definitely played well in first and second position. And with power! I know these models had truss rods, but didn't know if there was a risk in adjusting them (were they adjustable?) with the previously repaired top-crack.

Like I said, I went in to try out picks, I'm not really in the market for a vintage instrument, but of course now having played it, I'm hooked. The value of these seems to keep going up. And of course, if you like the tone.... well I'm starting to get the bug. Might have to revisit, and if I do, what other details should I look for/ask about? Your thoughts, comments, past experiences will all be appreciated. Thanks!

[pfox14]

$1200 seems a bit high for an A-Jr. with a major repaired crack. I'd try to get it for $1000.00

[barney 59]

An A jr. does not have a truss rod...and unless it is a snakehead $1200 is over priced even without a top crack-- the bowed neck would concern me. You may sometime want to play above 2nd position.

[Capt. E]

I am glad you have been introduced to the vintage Gibson world, but yes, A-Jr will not have a truss rod and $1200 is overpriced for a plain A with the problems you describe. You should be able to get a perfect condition never repaired A or A-1 for that price including the original hard case.

[trevdog]

And this is why I love the cafe! Thank's for your excellent replies, and advice. Instinct told me the price with the repair seemed on the high side; nice to have that and more confirmed. My recollection is that it was NOT a snakehead. I had seen a truss rod cover which made me ask that question, but now I'm wondering if the store has the instrument incorrectly labeled altogether? It is very plan, dark brown, with no logo on the headstock, no inlays, fret markers, or sound hole purfling. Of course there is (what appears to be) a factory label inside, not to mention the look, feel, and tone were what I'd call vintage.

Thanks again! I'm definitely hooked on the sound, need to do more research and play more!

[Ken Waltham]

These guys are all correct. Do not buy that Ajr. It is too much money for any Jr, let alone with a top crack.
You will easily find an A or A2 for somewhere in that range, with pick guard and case, and a really fine instrument.
BTW, I don't understand why some folks would buy those other mandos you describe, when ones like these ( as you discovered) are so superior. And..very readily available.

[Tobin]

My recollection is that it was NOT a snakehead. I had seen a truss rod cover which made me ask that question, but now I'm wondering if the store has the instrument incorrectly labeled altogether? It is very plan, dark brown, with no logo on the headstock, no inlays, fret markers, or sound hole purfling.

Hmm, that does seem weird. I ain't no expert, but every 1925 Ajr I've seen would be a snakehead (no truss rod), and would have fret markers. If it were a paddlehead with a truss rod, it could just be a different year or model, but the missing fret markers might mean it's not all original.

[allenhopkins]

The lack of binding and fingerboard inlays, and the dark brown finish, are correct for an A-Jr. There should be a black ring around the soundhole. The A-Jr was made from 1919 to 1927, so if it's a "paddlehead," could be pre-1923.

A-Jr's supposedly did not have adjustable truss rods, though I'm not sure that's uniformly true; there are a lot of "exceptions" to nearly every Gibson rule popping up.

[Tobin]

The lack of binding and fingerboard inlays, and the dark brown finish, are correct for an A-Jr. There should be a black ring around the soundhole. The A-Jr was made from 1919 to 1927, so if it's a "paddlehead," could be pre-1923.

OK, again, I'm no expert. I agree on the binding, but I'm confused about the fingerboard inlay (fret marker) issue. Looking at the mandolin archive site, I cannot find a single example of an Ajr model that doesn't have fret markers. They apparently went to the snakehead design from 1924 to 1926, but went back to the paddlehead design in 1927, so it could technically be post-1926 as well.

I see fret position marker inlays for every single year I could find (nothing listed before 1921):

1921 Ajr Example (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/62768) (paddlehead)

Another 1921 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/68875) (paddlehead)

1922 Ajr Example (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/70049) (paddlehead)

1923 Ajr Example (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/73437) (paddlehead)

Another 1923 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/73812) (paddlehead)

1924 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/75097) (snakehead)

Another 1924 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/75809) (snakehead)

1925 Ajr Example (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/80811) (snakehead)

Another 1925 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/82321) (snakehead)

1926 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/83001) (snakehead)

1927 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/84032) (paddlehead)

Another 1927 Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/84234) (paddlehead)

1930 ship date Ajr (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/85831) (paddlehead)

[trevdog]

It looked nearly identical to the first 1923 Ajr (paddlehead) (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/73437) from the Archive, which is causing me to second guess myself on the fret-marker comment. My main goal was to understand how repairs affect price (even if tone and playability are great). Of course I should have done better at providing a correct ID on the instrument first; should have taken a picture while I was in the store. What I do remember with certainty was the paddlehead had a truss rod cover on it. With the evidence of a major top crack repair, it makes me wonder if perhaps other repairs were made as well? Maybe a different neck swapped out with a truss rod? Although, I can't imaging putting a replacement neck on without makers in the fingerboard. Sorry to put you all through this mystery, please forgive a newbie on the forum.

[acousticphd]

It looked nearly identical to the first 1923 Ajr (paddlehead) (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/73437) from the Archive, which is causing me to second guess myself on the fret-marker comment. My main goal was to understand how repairs affect price (even if tone and playability are great). Of course I should have done better at providing a correct ID on the instrument first; should have taken a picture while I was in the store. What I do remember with certainty was the paddlehead had a truss rod cover on it. With the evidence of a major top crack repair, it makes me wonder if perhaps other repairs were made as well? Maybe a different neck swapped out with a truss rod? Although, I can't imaging putting a replacement neck on without makers in the fingerboard. Sorry to put you all through this mystery, please forgive a newbie on the forum.

It could simply be dated wrong. Take a picture of it next time you go in!
Another clue to the age is whether the tuner posts are above (later period) or below the cog (earlier period). Personally I would be less concerned about the top repair, than about the straightness or lack of (ie, bowing) of the neck, and the fret wear. I would look very carefully at this, I mean with a magnifying glass and precision ruler, before committing. The reason an old Gibsons is hanging on a store wall is likely to be that it doesn't play very well (which is also never a factor is pricing!). I have had ~6 old Gibsons, all of which have needed a fretboard level and refret. This can result in playability almost like a new instrument, but will cost $200-$300. This investment can be well worth it if the sale price is attractive enough. I would have a hard time spending over $600-$700 on something that will need another couple hundred dollars of work. But used/vintage instruments are notoriously overpriced in music stores, and you might see what offer they would consider.

[allenhopkins]

It looked nearly identical to the first 1923 Ajr (paddlehead) (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/73437) from the Archive,...Of course I should have done better at providing a correct ID on the instrument first; should have taken a picture while I was in the store. What I do remember with certainty was the paddlehead had a truss rod cover on it...please forgive a newbie on the forum.

If you get another chance, look inside the soundhole, up toward the neck block, and see if there's a number stamped there. This is called the Factory Order Number (FON), and it's a designation used to manage batches of under-construction instruments within the Gibson factory. The A-Jr had a distinctive round label glued to the back opposite the soundhole, but often these labels get lost. If you find an FON, Spann's Guide to Gibson, 1902-41 (http://www.amazon.com/Spanns-Guide-Gibson-1902-1941-Softcover/dp/1574242679) is probably the best authority for getting an accurate date of origin.