mandocello neck problem

[Mandomonte]

I have an Eastman 805 mandocello that I have been advised needs work on the neck. Supposedly the truss rod is maxed out and high A strings Buzz. Also guy felt top,or neck had sunk down ??? One guy advised a fret job and neck adjustment, Another a possible neck reset. Ant advice would be appreciated as nobody near by has worked on mandocello and some won't bother. I bought it used so no warranty.

[Marty Jacobson]

Hi Mandomonte, you can trust pretty much any luthier who is competent to work on guitars (specifically archtops), since the Eastmandocello is basically just an archtop guitar with eight strings.

[Mandomonte]

Thanks Marty. Some area guys that work on flat tops are hesitant to delve into archtop. Went your site. Would a little longer truss rod work for me ? Some beautiful instruments. Do you do mainly A/ teardrop styles ? Have you done mandocello or on a ? WILL be looking to upgrade from my Eastman in the future. I really lik it. It was a good first purchase and I don't have many of the criticism others do. I really like the look of the bigger body F or two point styles.

[Nevin]

A little more information would be helpful. A truss rod is used to set relief rather than the overall action. I would not try to correct either a buzz on one string or arch collapse with a truss rod adjustment or a neck re-set.

If the arch is collapsing you need someone who is very good with archtop instruments to take a look. It is possible you have a loose brace.
If the neck is pulling out of the block then a re-set is the way to go. What kind of neck joint does the instrument have?

Does the A-string buzz the entire length or the fretboard or just on a few frets? If it buzzes for most of the fretboard you can try adjusting the bridge up a bit. If it is just one or two frets you may have a loose fret or a high fret. Both are fairly easy fixes. A loose fret can be re-set and sometimes held in place with AC glue. A high fret can be dressed down and re-crowned with a fret file. If it only buzzes at one fret than you may have a low fret which can be replaced.

It is possible the neck has twisted. A truss rod adjustment will not help you with that. A re-fret with a fingerboard dressing may take care of the problem. A neck re-set will not.

If I have missunderstood your issues and you do need a truss rod adjustment, you can take off the nut on the rod and add one or two small washers to gain additional truss rod adjustment. Good luck.

[Mandomonte]

A little more information would be helpful. A truss rod is used to set relief rather than the overall action. I would not try to correct either a buzz on one string or arch collapse with a truss rod adjustment or a neck re-set.

If the arch is collapsing you need someone who is very good with archtop instruments to take a look. It is possible you have a loose brace.
If the neck is pulling out of the block then a re-set is the way to go. What kind of neck joint does the instrument have?

Does the A-string buzz the entire length or the fretboard or just on a few frets? If it buzzes for most of the fretboard you can try adjusting the bridge up a bit. If it is just one or two frets you may have a loose fret or a high fret. Both are fairly easy fixes. A loose fret can be re-set and sometimes held in place with AC glue. A high fret can be dressed down and re-crowned with a fret file. If it only buzzes at one fret than you may have a low fret which can be replaced.

It is possible the neck has twisted. A truss rod adjustment will not help you with that. A re-fret with a fingerboard dressing may take care of the problem. A neck re-set will not.

If I have missunderstood your issues and you do need a truss rod adjustment, you can take off the nut on the rod and add one or two small washers to gain additional truss rod adjustment. Good luck.

Thanks Nevin. Not sure what type neck joint. The A strings were dead sounding from fret five on down.. The bridge was raised a couple months ago and it seemed better for awhile.
The bridge was raised again, quite a bit yesterday. It seemd too high and effects playability, but dead sounds not evident. 12th fret is about 6/32. There is a concave bow to the neck. First three frets string height o.k. but too high for my liking after that. 7/32 at end of neck.

[MysTiK PiKn]

It sounds like you have the same problem I am having w my mandolin.
If the truss rod is loosened, the neck likely will settle into a reverse bow. (opposite of a slight bow that yields normal neck relief, which is simply string clearance above all frets.
The other culprit likely in play is a "hump" on the neck/fboard, where the neck meets the body. The hump is higher than the afforded relief provided by the truss rod. If it is not extreme, you can fret file the hump out = frets will be slightly lower, but level, and thus offset the "hump" effect.
With either a truss or a fretfile/hump fix, you have to also alter the bridge height. It's not rocket science - but almost.
You can read all about it at FRETS.COM
(RECOMMENDED) Educating yourself through understanding.

Do not overtorque the truss rod - if that breaks, it's serious, requiring disassembly of fingerboard, etc (often or potentially) .
Read frets.com = see the huge index/topics list - a highly respected site.
http://www.frets.com/

Note: If you are tweaking the truss rod, you need to know what kind it is and how it works/responds BEFORE you mess it up. (perhaps a 2-way)

Note: you need to "sight the neck" from both ends - look along the top of the neck, and you will see the problem. Sight it repeatedly with a relatively light bright background. You can see the glitter of the frets, and you can see the side of the fingerboard and neck. And you can see the results of any tweaks you make.

end of sermon

[sunburst]

...Ant advice would be appreciated...

Without seeing the instrument, handling it, measuring things, adjusting things, nobody can tell you what is wrong with it. Even if we had pictures here, we just can't tell what the problem/s is/are, we can only guess.
You will have to find a competent luthier to check it out and diagnose it. If there is nobody near you, you may end up having to travel or ship the instrument to a good repair person.
So that's my advice; have it looked at by someone with the required knowledge and experience.

[allenhopkins]

And don't ignore the fact that it may be under factory warranty. Worth checking, at least.

[MysTiK PiKn]

OP quote:
"One guy advised a fret job and neck adjustment"

Go back to this guy, and ask him how that would fix the problem. He should be able to show you.

I agree we can't diagnose without seeing it. But if you know the terminology, it can yield a better guess on our part.
So, the middle ground fast track, is to go back and talk to this guy (I think) because that's the most reasonable suggestion - without seeing it, without more info. He sounds like a fair deal. But it's hard to say. Good luck.


Also, I found out, my preferred guitar repair guy does not like working on mandolins. Mandos demand a good setup, meaning - a really good setup, cos everything is small, and everything matters. Less room for error - hmmmm, debatable - but I think I'm making myself clear - sure hope so. And not all repairs guys give the care and attention that we all pray for - word of mouth can be big. And some of the best are replying to this thread.

[Bernie Daniel]

Thanks Nevin. Not sure what type neck joint. The A strings were dead sounding from fret five on down.. The bridge was raised a couple months ago and it seemed better for awhile.
The bridge was raised again, quite a bit yesterday. It seemed too high and effects playability, but dead sounds not evident. 12th fret is about 6/32. There is a concave bow to the neck. First three frets string height o.k. but too high for my liking after that. 7/32 at end of neck.

Hi!

Sorr to hear you are having mandocello blues.

Yes, IMO, your action is very high in my view 3/16 = 0.187". I think that an action of 0.1" is high


I like the action to be about 0.080" on the C-course and 0.070" on the A-course @ 12th fret on my Gibson K-50 mandocello.

If the A-course strings are dead sounding all the way down from the 5th fret maybe it is touching and you have too much relief dialed into the fret board? But if only the A -course is doing that the possibility of a twist in the board as mentioned by Nevin cannot be ruled out perhaps.

You don't you quickly measure the relief?

Put a capo on fret #1. The hold down the first C string on the 14th fret (where the neck joins the body) then lightly pop the C-string above fret #7 --does it "click" against the string? This action under the 7th fret is the "relief". If it does not click you have no relief in the fret board.


OTOH, if you do have relief you could attempt to quantify it with feel gauges or a StewMac string action gauge.

I have about 0.007" relief on my K-50 as I recall -- might be a little more of less -- be a while since I checked it.

Good Luck!

[Tavy]

Just re-read the OP, and Bernie is quite right: 6/32 is way too high - IMO completely unplayably high. As John also says, without seeing the instrument in person, it's impossible to help much, buit I'd just make a couple of observations:

* String tensions on mandocello's are really high - much more so than on a guitar - which means a regular guitar truss rod does struggle to cope. With the right setup though, it should be within it's capabilities though, just that there's less margin for error than with a guitar.
* A high action will make the bow in the neck worse - much worse. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the truss rod is maxed out and still not coping with the action that high - the strings will have too much forward purchase on the neck for it to cope. With the action down where it should be, the truss rod would hopefully be able to cope again. This is a viscious circle BTW: the high action increases the forward pull on the neck, which increases the bow, which increases the action more, which increases the pull more.... etc
* A high action will lead to dull/muted sounding strings because you literally cannot play the thing. Technical explanation is that as the action increases so the break angle over the fret decreases when you fret the string. Eventually you reach a point (and you must be quite close to that) where no matter how close to the fret you place your finger, it's simply impossible to get a clear note.

In short, your setup is so out of whack, that I'm not surprised it has issues. The question I guess is why did the action end up adjusted so high? Figure that out, and you'll know what the right course of action is.

[Mandomonte]

Thank to everyone for the help. Ended up driving to Bernunzio' s in Rochester N.Y. ( 2.5 hrs) to experience a great store with competent,friendly staff. Problem fixed in a very shortly wit a truss rod and bridge adjustment. Their luthier was young but knew his stuff and spent some explaining things to me. Plus, I hot to play an old Gibson K1 he had set up. A good day.

[Mandomonte]

It sounds like you have the same problem I am having w my mandolin.
If the truss rod is loosened, the neck likely will settle into a reverse bow. (opposite of a slight bow that yields normal neck relief, which is simply string clearance above all frets.
The other culprit likely in play is a "hump" on the neck/fboard, where the neck meets the body. The hump is higher than the afforded relief provided by the truss rod. If it is not extreme, you can fret file the hump out = frets will be slightly lower, but level, and thus offset the "hump" effect.
With either a truss or a fretfile/hump fix, you have to also alter the bridge height. It's not rocket science - but almost.
You can read all about it at FRETS.COM
(RECOMMENDED) Educating yourself through understanding.

Do not overtorque the truss rod - if that breaks, it's serious, requiring disassembly of fingerboard, etc (often or potentially) .
Read frets.com = see the huge index/topics list - a highly respected site.
http://www.frets.com/

Note: If you are tweaking the truss rod, you need to know what kind it is and how it works/responds BEFORE you mess it up. (perhaps a 2-way)

Note: you need to "sight the neck" from both ends - look along the top of the neck, and you will see the problem. Sight it repeatedly with a relatively light bright background. You can see the glitter of the frets, and you can see the side of the fingerboard and neck. And you can see the results of any tweaks you make.

end of sermon

You were pretty much right with what I was told. I was informed that the truss rod is brass and will split before rod is damaged.

[Tavy]

Thank to everyone for the help. Ended up driving to Bernunzio' s in Rochester N.Y. ( 2.5 hrs) to experience a great store with competent,friendly staff. Problem fixed in a very shortly wit a truss rod and bridge adjustment. Their luthier was young but knew his stuff and spent some explaining things to me. Plus, I hot to play an old Gibson K1 he had set up. A good day.

Yeh! Good to hear.

[JeffD]

Thank to everyone for the help. Ended up driving to Bernunzio' s in Rochester N.Y. ( 2.5 hrs) to experience a great store with competent,friendly staff..

They are good folks.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Good to hear. Things go better, with and for, the good people. ;) Having a good repair contact = priceless.!!

[allenhopkins]

...Ended up driving to Bernunzio' s in Rochester N.Y. ( 2.5 hrs) to experience a great store with competent,friendly staff. Problem fixed in a very shortly wit a truss rod and bridge adjustment. Their luthier was young but knew his stuff and spent some explaining things to me. Plus, I got to play an old Gibson K1 he had set up. A good day.

Welcome to Rochester, home of great vintage-instrument dealers!

Sure that wasn't the K-2 they just set up? Or was it the K-1 with the missing pickguard? John's the only store I know that's stocking two Gibson K mandocelli. (http://bernunzio.com/category/instruments/mandolins/mandocello/)

[Mandomonte]

Allen, you are probably correct about which Mc it was. I was a little stresses about what the verdict would be on my 805, plus being nervous about playing the fine old Gibson. It has s totally different sound and feel from my 805. It was difficult to hold it in place while playing, but what a sweet even sound. The other one, I was told was set up with on strings.