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Cody Benjamin
Mar-21-2015, 4:02pm
Do bowl back mandolins with lute headstocks exist?

Is there a reason why a bowl back mandolin couldn't have a headstock like a lute? I was thinking maybe the string tension is too high, the angle from the nut to the tuners would be too extreme, and you couldn't get it up to pitch without strings snapping.

Picture of a lute, the headstock curves back instead of straight.
132038

Paul Hostetter
Mar-21-2015, 5:09pm
No reason, except the joint will have to endure a string load far beyond a lute, and you'll never find a case for it. Even Stradivari didn't perpetuate that detail, and he built for gut strings.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Stradivarius_Mandolin_-_1680,_National_Music_Museum,_Vermillion.jpg

Rob Zamites
Mar-21-2015, 6:33pm
Removed.

zedmando
Mar-21-2015, 6:36pm
I love that case--it looks cool and would confuse a lot off people.

Bill Snyder
Mar-21-2015, 7:03pm
Rob, Paul is one of the most knowledgeable people in the business when it comes to stringed instruments. If he got it wrong then so did the people at the National Music Museum because they also think it is a mandolin.

Timbofood
Mar-21-2015, 7:16pm
Yep, those guys don't miss by much. By those guys I mean Paul or the folks at NMM.
Just sayin'

Paul Hostetter
Mar-21-2015, 8:10pm
That's a cittern, not a mandolin!

Actually, it's not a cittern. Stradivari also made citterns, they were wire-strung and looked quite different. Perhaps you're trying to view that image on a phone, but if you took a better look, the text right in that display case correctly describes it as a mandolin, which in those days was a soprano lute.

A typical cittern, though not by Strad:

http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/img_1600/07421914.jpg

Rob Zamites
Mar-21-2015, 8:26pm
Jeeze guys, lighten up, I was trying to be funny and failed miserably.

Cody Benjamin
Mar-21-2015, 9:23pm
Thanks Paul, I figured there was some reason why nobody makes 'em.

Hudmister
Mar-22-2015, 10:54am
Actually, it's not a cittern. Stradivari also made citterns, they were wire-strung and looked quite different. Perhaps you're trying to view that image on a phone, but if you took a better look, the text right in that display case correctly describes it as a mandolin, which in those days was a soprano lute.

A typical cittern, though not by Strad:

http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/img_1600/07421914.jpg

Thanks Paul. In the cittern photo I am intrigued by the fret spacing (nut to first fret and second fret to third fret). Can you comment on that please.

Paul Hostetter
Mar-23-2015, 5:57pm
There's a bit of a note about the bizarre fret spacing here (http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/1600.html) in which that author declares "The fretting employs a temperament pretty closely matching one-sixth comma meantone. This difference can be seen in the image at right which juxtaposes the fretting with a modern equal-tempered fretting." This one:

http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/img_1600/34cm_citternscale.jpg

Even after reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament), I don't know what's meant by "one-sixth comma meantone." I love different scales and intonation systems, but I cannot imagine how this system of fret spacing would fit actual musical performance, even in the time of Shakespeare. Perhaps because wire string technology was extremely primitive at that time, this may have been an effort to accommodate the available strings. I really don't know. :confused:

Hudmister
Mar-24-2015, 10:55am
Thank you Paul for the links, it is interesting reading. My imagination of what it must have sounded like and the type of music played on it leads to Celtic like ritual tunes with lots of pagan dancing around fires. I notice the string spacing appears almost even across the nut and down the fret board instead of the close pairs we use today as if it would be possible to fret one string from each pair with a single finger tip.

CedarSlayer
Mar-25-2015, 8:32am
There's a bit of a note about the bizarre fret spacing here (http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/1600.html) in which that author declares "The fretting employs a temperament pretty closely matching one-sixth comma meantone. This difference can be seen in the image at right which juxtaposes the fretting with a modern equal-tempered fretting." This one:

http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/img_1600/34cm_citternscale.jpg

Even after reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament), I don't know what's meant by "one-sixth comma meantone." I love different scales and intonation systems, but I cannot imagine how this system of fret spacing would fit actual musical performance, even in the time of Shakespeare. Perhaps because wire string technology was extremely primitive at that time, this may have been an effort to accommodate the available strings. I really don't know. :confused:

Here is and example:
BWV552 Prelude [C] 6th-comma meantone, adapted by Anaguma

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXZAmSowXOU

I rather enjoy the sound of it.
If you want to try it here are instructions for it. I am not sure how it will do with your frets, but all in all a fun experiment.
http://www.hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav-4.html&t/welcome.html&http://www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/mean-sixth.html

Before we could measure and count the waves in a note, Tuning was done by octaves and fifths. Problem is that when you tune by fifths and get to another octave, it is not quite in tune with the previous octave note. The discrepancy is not a rational number but close to -23.46 cents in an octave. To temper a note to even out this discrepancy is to adjust some measure of this ~-23.46 cents somewhere in the octave. So a bunch of methods were made to adjust that discrepancy within the octave. The adjustment in an interval is called a comma.

As you adjust the error, depending on how you divide ~-23.46 cents up and put it into the system, some notes will not sound right in some keys. These are called wolf intervals. So you leave that fret out and life becomes easier for the musician. Suddenly that near impossible four finger chord is not nearly as impossible. Some four finger chords that sound really off are entirely impossible, but it is a fair exchange. It does mean that there are large jumps in places on the fret board. The advent of Well Temperament, followed by Even Temperament allowed all notes to work in all keys.

This also explains why hand tuning without a good tuner can get such varied results. Typically a hand tuned instrument ends up with making the corrections show up more on the sharps. This means the next step only has half the error on it and the major chords are still grand and harmonic. The comma divided by all steps would be roughly -2 cents so when the jump is put on the sharps, the sharps end up being maybe 2.3 cents flat as compared to even temperament but it is easier for the ear to hear precise harmony than precise discord so we tend to tune that way. Sharps sound a bit odd to a lot of us anyway. Fret placement tends to make a lot of the tuning decisions for us, but there is still some of wiggle room that you can see if you are observant.

Check out the dynamics between musicians, who have not played with each other before or recently, as they tune their instruments. Instinct, competition and cooperation at it's best blend. A magical sort of moment that makes for a type of music all on it's own.

Bob

jlatorre
Mar-25-2015, 11:47am
Do bowl back mandolins with lute headstocks exist?

Well, there's this one, sort of:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?112076-mandore-by-JLT&p=1356230#post1356230

[/QUOTE]Is there a reason why a bowl back mandolin couldn't have a headstock like a lute? [/QUOTE]

You've pointed out the extra stress caused by the angle, but the real reason is that it's not necessary. Lutes relied on friction pegs, and the added bend as the string traveled over the nut helped reduce the pull on the peg, allowing the instrument to stay in tune. With tuning machines, that problem is eliminated.

Paul Hostetter
Mar-25-2015, 2:48pm
Bob and John—thank you!

CedarSlayer
Mar-25-2015, 10:23pm
Bob and John—thank you!
I'm glad to have been able to provide useful data. You have posted so many things that I have enjoyed and learned from!

Bob

Marty Jacobson
Mar-25-2015, 11:06pm
Thanks, Bob.... definitely interesting (and complicated).

Cody Benjamin
Mar-26-2015, 12:40pm
John,
That link you provided was awesome. That is pretty much more or less what I was asking about. It looks awesome. Any way you could give us a sound sample?

Thank you for pointing out why the headstock has a bend. It makes sense that it helps reduce the pull on the pegs.

My next instrument is a lute, and I just thought it would be cool to have a mandolin that more or less matched a lute.

Paul Hostetter
Mar-27-2015, 12:59am
I've been doing a bunch of research, and have consulted with a number of people whose opinions I take seriously, about the neck angle thing. It's still going on, but...

It can't possibly have anything to do with gut strings staying in tune, because there were so many contemporary instruments that successfully employed 1) gut strings and simple friction pegs and 2) had much less neck/scroll angle. One contemporary oud maker believed it was to reduce tension on the neck itself, like split it between the scroll and the neck proper, and I also just can't buy that.

One published source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lute#Neck) claims it was there "presumably to help hold the low-tension strings firmly against the nut which, traditionally, is not glued in place but is held in place by string pressure only." If so, why only the oud or lute? How about all the other string instruments?

http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/pictures.htm/Sorgh-detail.jpg

j. condino
Mar-27-2015, 1:16pm
About 20 years ago, I built a couple of guitars with a lute type headstock angle. I thought they were fantastic.....until I tried to find a case that would fit them........:(

j.
www.condino.com

Cody Benjamin
Mar-27-2015, 11:53pm
Grandcanyon, How did those guitars turn out? You were able to get them up to standard guitar tuning?

Paul - Your last post, are you just reiterating what you said before? That the angle isn't necessary on lutes or ouds? Forgive me!

Paul Hostetter
Mar-28-2015, 2:58am
No, that angle is certainly not necessary. I was responding to an earlier post by John LaTorre, which said:


...the real reason is that it's not necessary. Lutes relied on friction pegs, and the added bend as the string traveled over the nut helped reduce the pull on the peg, allowing the instrument to stay in tune. With tuning machines, that problem is eliminated.

On further reflection, I realized that the angle had nothing to do with friction pegs or staying in tune, for the reasons cited. I tried to agree with and accept what he said, then realized I couldn’t.

Petrus
Mar-28-2015, 8:28am
Since the lute angle is carried over from the oud, an oud case might work!

http://www.amazon.com/Mid-East-Hard-Case-for-Oud/dp/B0009V9X44

I wonder if the neck angle may be something to do with keeping the neck from sticking out so far and making it easier to reach the pegs for tuning?