how does this CL scam work ?

[kkmm]

Today, I received an email responding to my CL mandolin ads.

The email sender says he/she want to buy my mandolin at my asking price ;-)
, but still on business trip so will send a money order to me, then arrange for an assistant to come over to pick up. The send request my name and my address (should be no big deal).

This is the 3-rd time I got this kind of email.

The first time, the "buyer" said he wrote a check for an amount 200$ more than my asking price, and asks me to re-imburse the difference. I replied I will do after I cashed his check. Never heard from this "buyer" again.

I am wondering how this scam works, i.e., how does the scammer make money with this scheme ?

[Eddie Sheehy]

The first step is to engage the seller in correspondence and hope that greed takes over common sense... You'd be surprised at their success rate... Just look at the Stock Market and Casinos...

[James Rankine]

Previous thread on this topic here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?109810-I-wonder-how-this-scam-works&highlight=scam)

[Kevin Stueve]

the scam relies on people not really understanding how check clearing works. They send you a check for 200 more than the amount. You deposit in your bank 48 hours later the funds are available to you so you send them back the extra 200 dollars. about 3 to 5 days later the check you originally deposited fails to clear due to insufficient funds and which point your bank removes that entire amount from your account and a bounced check fee. So you are out the product, 200 dollars and a bounced check fee.

[darrylicshon]

Never give out your address when selling on craigslist

[zedmando]

I know someone who got a similar reply when trying to sell something--and the email received mentioned, "The item", but never actually said what it was--seems that scammer got lazy and had one email to copy & paste for each attempt at the sale.

[JeffD]

the scam relies on people not really understanding how check clearing works. They send you a check for 200 more than the amount. You deposit in your bank 48 hours later the funds are available to you so you send them back the extra 200 dollars. about 3 to 5 days later the check you originally deposited fails to clear due to insufficient funds and which point your bank removes that entire amount from your account and a bounced check fee. So you are out the product, 200 dollars and a bounced check fee.

And the scammer pockets $200, and maybe gets a mandolin.

[RBMB]

I only take cash on CL and I always meet the resin in a public place, preferably with security cameras all over.

[Jeff Mando]

I don't blame seller's "greed". Criminals are criminals. The seller just wants to sell his item and buy something else or pay a bill. No greed involved on the seller's part. Our slow economy might motivate a seller to correspond with one of these characters, due to lack of interest by "cash customers"--that I can see. Now the "greed" of the criminal is another story.

[kkmm]

Post#4 explains clearly how this could work. The first time I got this scam email, I replied: I will refund the difference AFTER cashing out the check (not deposit). Each time I deposit a check in my account, the clerk always inform me how much is available now (from this check) and when the full amount is available.

[JeffD]

Post#4 explains clearly how this could work. The first time I got this scam email, I replied: I will refund the difference AFTER cashing out the check (not deposit). Each time I deposit a check in my account, the clerk always inform me how much is available now (from this check) and when the full amount is available.

I am not sure that is always true, though I have seen it on some of the sites that explain this scam.

I was once told that even after the bank clears the check, if the check is later is determined to be fraudulent you are out the money. In other words and even if the check fools the bank, you still owe the money.

I know it seems kind of weird, but that is my understanding. I don't know if that has changed, or perhaps it is different for different amounts or in different states, but what I understand is that you are not necessarily safe just because the check clears.

I didn't and don't understand how this can be, I thought that a check only clears when the money arrives at your bank from the bank issuing the check, but apparently, at least in some cases, it is more complicated than this.

[barney 59]

Post#4 explains clearly how this could work. The first time I got this scam email, I replied: I will refund the difference AFTER cashing out the check (not deposit). Each time I deposit a check in my account, the clerk always inform me how much is available now (from this check) and when the full amount is available.

That isn't necessarily the real time frame. The check as it were cashes instantly and money is transferred between banks via the Fed. Part of the time lapse is a gigantic money maker for banks. Every 24 hours that a bank has your money + the trillion or so that passes through banks everyday adds up! If you have money in the bank then you are essentially covering the check and that amount is usually what determines how much cash they will "front" you. The in authenticity of a check, particularly if the person that is floating the check knows what they are doing, can take much longer to be discovered. A while back there was a lot of this type of scam involving cashiers checks(supposed to be always good right!?) that sometimes took weeks before the bank finally realized that the check was fraudulent. The people floating these checks knew something about how the system works and found a hole in the fence. Maybe the banks have corrected how this scam worked,I don't know--maybe it's still going on. Your always on the hook for the money no matter how long it takes. Banks balance the books everyday before they turn out the lights and they are correct to the penny!

[jaycat]

Take the check to the bank it's written on (not your own bank) and cash it for cash money.

[barney 59]

By the way having a PO box rather than a street address is a good way to keep these scammers away. That courier coming to pick up the item or the extra cash is probably not from Acme Courier Service but is very likely some very bad dude who is going to leave with the cash one way or another. If confronted with a PO box # they're likely to give you a pass and you'll never be solicited this way! The whole point of what they are trying to do is to get YOU to cash their check for them --they really aren't interested in what your selling!

These scams probably don't involve local --take it to the bank it was written on personal checks, or at least I would be very surprised if they do. I have had banks want me to carry a check to the actual branch that the check was written on, you can never tell from one branch to another. I've taken checks to a branch of a bank to cash a customers sometimes big check and they have told me to take it to the actual branch that my customer uses. I've gone down the road to another branch and they've cashed it no problem. Doing this might not be so convenient!

[RichM]

Take the check to the bank it's written on (not your own bank) and cash it for cash money.

The check is a fake. You're not getting any money. The only way you beat this scam is by not getting involved in the first place.

[kkmm]

Never give out your address when selling on craigslist
For small instruments like guitars, mandolins, ukuleles, etc.. one can meet in a public place.
If they can also be plug-in (electric), then you have to have a way to prove that it works. I used a microBOSS as an adapter between the instrument cable and the car stereo.
However, for large items (piano, futniture, etc...) how can you avoid giving out the address ?

[kkmm]

The check is a fake. You're not getting any money.
If you get no money, then do not send the instrument or anything.

[Kevin Stueve]

I am not sure that is always true, though I have seen it on some of the sites that explain this scam.

I was once told that even after the bank clears the check, if the check is later is determined to be fraudulent you are out the money. In other words and even if the check fools the bank, you still owe the money.

I know it seems kind of weird, but that is my understanding. I don't know if that has changed, or perhaps it is different for different amounts or in different states, but what I understand is that you are not necessarily safe just because the check clears.

I didn't and don't understand how this can be, I thought that a check only clears when the money arrives at your bank from the bank issuing the check, but apparently, at least in some cases, it is more complicated than this.

Most banks make all the funds available to you before the check clears all the way back to the originating bank. This scam counts on that

[barney 59]

Most banks make all the funds available to you before the check clears all the way back to the originating bank. This scam counts on that

The truth is that when you submit a check to a teller and they run it through that scanner the information is sent to the fed that subtracts that amount from the issuing bank and pays that amount to your bank and your bank has it before you hit the door. It's not money, hasn't been for years, it's electronically transmitted 0's and 1's. That green thing in your pocket is not the money it's a representation of those 0's and 1's that travel around the world at the speed of light. The value of the money is based on nothing but faith in Governments --there is no gold! There isn't a bunch of clerks wearing little green visors with a ledger book checking signatures, it's all electronic and all these transactions start and finish right now! The check cashing scams seem to rely on the fact that you have either money in the bank or good faith with your local branch and can retrieve the money from their bogus check before the bank knows that it isn't real. They want you to do it because banks have cameras and guys with guns and alarms that go off at the police station. They have you rob the bank for them and the bank doesn't care much because they just charge you for the robbery and maybe a fee on top!

[Kevin Stueve]

The truth is that when you submit a check to a teller and they run it through that scanner the information is sent to the fed that subtracts that amount from the issuing bank and pays that amount to your bank and your bank has it before you hit the door. It's not money, hasn't been for years, it's electronically transmitted 0's and 1's. That green thing in your pocket is not the money it's a representation of those 0's and 1's that travel around the world at the speed of light. The value of the money is based on nothing but faith in Governments --there is no gold! There isn't a bunch of clerks wearing little green visors with a ledger book checking signatures, it's all electronic and all these transactions start and finish right now! The check cashing scams seem to rely on the fact that you have either money in the bank or good faith with your local branch and can retrieve the money from their bogus check before the bank knows that it isn't real. They want you to do it because banks have cameras and guys with guns and alarms that go off at the police station. They have you rob the bank for them and the bank doesn't care much because they just charge you for the robbery and maybe a fee on top!

Well I work in IT and have written banking software. I get the whole ones and zeroes thing. But trust me, my daughter lost 3200 dollars in this scam. The initial funds available at 48 hours can be reversed about 3 business days later when the check image gets back to the originating bank.

but you don't have to believe me. How about US Postal service ? https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2008/html/pb22225/html/kit_014.html

[kkmm]

Hey, thanks. The link provided above (repeated here)
https://about.usps.com/postal-bullet...l/kit_014.html
really explains how this scam works. The fact that one cleared the check and got the money does not mean that money is safe in the pocket. If the check is faked, one still have to return the full amount to the bank.
Next time, if I get one of these scam emails again, I will reply: DEJA VU.

[barney 59]

Well I work in IT and have written banking software. I get the whole ones and zeroes thing. But trust me, my daughter lost 3200 dollars in this scam. The initial funds available at 48 hours can be reversed about 3 business days later when the check image gets back to the originating bank.

but you don't have to believe me. How about US Postal service ? https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2008/html/pb22225/html/kit_014.html

But I do believe you --Yes, she got the money before the bank realized it was fake but after she had finalized the deal she had made with the person who gave her the check. The cashiers check scam was sometimes taking weeks before it was discovered that the check was fake. Maybe someone like yourself that writes bank software figured that one out because it was a pretty sophisticated hack. You bet, the bank comes cold bloodily after you for the money, accepting no responsibility. Part of the problem is that people don't read or believe that stuff that is all over Craig's List about avoiding scams. If you believe that the bank will be right on it informing you that the check is bad a lot of this would be avoided if people just held off finalizing the transaction until maybe a week after receiving the check but you'll sure make some people mad. Hey, use Paypal --forget checks --who uses checks anymore anyway? Well, besides me maybe--I don't think my kids know what a check is!

[Magnus Geijer]

Just want to clarify something here. If the "buyer" says they've written the check for too much, it's a scam. It doesn't matter what you do, you will never get money out of that person, because it's a scam. There's no neat trick you can use with the bank to make sure you get your money. The money isn't there, they're not buying. It's a scam. Every time. By even so much as responding with "Go away, I know you're a scammer", you have proven that you're the kind of person that talks to scammers. If you get this kind of email, delete it, and move on.

[barney 59]

Just want to clarify something here. If the "buyer" says they've written the check for too much, it's a scam. It doesn't matter what you do, you will never get money out of that person, because it's a scam. There's no neat trick you can use with the bank to make sure you get your money. The money isn't there, they're not buying. It's a scam. Every time. By even so much as responding with "Go away, I know you're a scammer", you have proven that you're the kind of person that talks to scammers. If you get this kind of email, delete it, and move on.

Absolutely right --unless maybe you see yourself as some sort of vigilante. It's peoples greed that gets them to lose any sense of reason...the problem is you've made the deal and it's when the check comes it is for more --usually much more, than was agreed on. Then they get in touch with you and say it was a clerical error--please send back the difference. If it happened to me I would reply "No,there was no error,that is what we agreed on!" I wouldn't bother to attempt to cash the check nor would I send the item. Unfortunately you have to start trying to resell the thing.

[Upnorth]

I don't know about other countries, but if you fell for this scam here in the UK, then you might be in breach of money laundering laws.

[barney 59]

I don't know about other countries, but if you fell for this scam here in the UK, then you might be in breach of money laundering laws.

If you cover the check -lost your money that is, I doubt that you would be in violation anywhere. If you cleaned out your bank account and were unresponsive you could certainly be accused of passing bad checks at the very least!

[houseworker]

I don't know about other countries, but if you fell for this scam here in the UK, then you might be in breach of money laundering laws.

How on earth do you make that out? The whole point of this scam is that there is no money, the cheque's a fake. You can't conceivably launder money when there isn't any to launder.

[JeffD]

Lets say you were a dishonest individual. So you got this check, you suspect its not legit, but you want the money. So you go to the bank in the hopes of "making it their problem". You figure on getting the money and think you won't get caught. Yea stupid, I know.

Now I am not saying that is you. But to a bank I could understand that you could be confused for someone who would try that, in which case it is a legal issue, and maybe not just in the UK.


Similar to the person who accidently finds that at some point in the day he acquired a counterfeit bill. His legal responsibility is to turn it in right then. If he passes it on, hoping to avoid being out the money and avoid the hassle and time by making it someone else's problem, he has broken the law.

If he honestly doesn't know it's counterfeit, he didn't break the law, but someone could accuse him and he might have to get a lawyer.

[Upnorth]

How on earth do you make that out? The whole point of this scam is that there is no money, the cheque's a fake. You can't conceivably launder money when there isn't any to launder.

It depends on exactly how the scam works. You have something for sale. Someone offers to buy it from you, but offers payment in a cheque for more than the sale price. They ask you to pay them the difference in cash. If you pay the cash to the buyer, then you are merely being scammed and have broken no law.

However if you are in fact paying the cash not to the buyer but to a third person, then you might be in breach of money laundering laws.

[sgrexa]

I actually had not one but TWO very authentic money orders (Moneygram) sent just last fall both totalling around $900 each. This was for a $100 grill I was selling on Craigs List. I was told to cash both of them and wire the change. He would then come and pick up the grill the following weekend. When I asked him why I would need to cash the second money order, or why I wouldn't just give him change when he picked up the grill, he seemed puzzled? I handed over to local police who essentially did nothing. As stated above, as soon as they ask for something odd like giving change or cashing checks for more than the item is worth, do not even respond. I generally avoid Craig's list and only use it as a last resort for stuff that I cannot ship. Way too much fraud and general weirdness for my comfort level.


Sean

[Kevin Stueve]

But I do believe you --Yes, she got the money before the bank realized it was fake but after she had finalized the deal she had made with the person who gave her the check. The cashiers check scam was sometimes taking weeks before it was discovered that the check was fake. Maybe someone like yourself that writes bank software figured that one out because it was a pretty sophisticated hack. You bet, the bank comes cold bloodily after you for the money, accepting no responsibility. Part of the problem is that people don't read or believe that stuff that is all over Craig's List about avoiding scams. If you believe that the bank will be right on it informing you that the check is bad a lot of this would be avoided if people just held off finalizing the transaction until maybe a week after receiving the check but you'll sure make some people mad. Hey, use Paypal --forget checks --who uses checks anymore anyway? Well, besides me maybe--I don't think my kids know what a check is!

and guess what happens when your name is still on said daughters account because it was convenient when she was in college. Hint-- bank knows who has the funds necessary to cover the 3200 dollar overdraft and they get their money.

[Petrus]

Lets say you were a dishonest individual. So you got this check, you suspect its not legit, but you want the money. So you go to the bank in the hopes of "making it their problem". You figure on getting the money and think you won't get caught. Yea stupid, I know.

If you're that dishonest, you could just write back to the original faux-buyer and say, "Hey, I'll keep my mandolin which you don't really want anyway, send me one of your best-quality 'checks' for $8,000 and I'll send you back half the cash. In fact, send me several of 'em. Worst case you're only out the paper and ink." :grin:

[houseworker]

It depends on exactly how the scam works.

If you haven't grasped that yet I give up...

[Upnorth]

If you haven't grasped that yet I give up...

I do understand the nature of the scam, except that the scammer can ask you to pay the cash to him or to a third party. If you pay the cash to a third party then you may be breaking the law - at least in the UK. Do you understand?

[barney 59]

I do understand the nature of the scam, except that the scammer can ask you to pay the cash to him or to a third party. If you pay the cash to a third party then you may be breaking the law - at least in the UK. Do you understand?

That is such a stretch! You are not paying "their money" to anyone! Your paying "your money" that's the point! There's no "laundering" going on. Straight transaction -you to them! Something in your logic requires that that check is real in some way--it's is not! You did cash a bad check though which the bank will require you to rectify.
If in England you go to a store and make a purchase with a check or a bank card can you get "cash over" like here in the US?--or is that illegal there? That could be considered money laundering by your definition because it's pretty much what you are doing when getting bilked in this scam--your providing "cash over"! only there really isn't any "over"!

[Eddie Sheehy]

I'm sure scammers everywhere are encouraged reading the responses to this thread...

[barney 59]

I'm sure scammers everywhere are encouraged reading the responses to this thread...

I know! Makes you think doesn't it? Maybe I should join the other side I could sure use the money!
A couple hundred transactions a day nets one fool could be a pretty good living!

Advise to anyone falling for this scam...When the courier shows up to pick up the cash.- Look out at the truck and if it says "ISIL Courier Service" on the side of the truck lock the door and call 911!

[Jeff Mando]

Bottom line--NOBODY overpays for ANYTHING, do they? If they do, that should be a red flag.

Reminds me of the expose I watched on Russian "mail order bride" internet dating sites. A common ad reads, "attractive blonde, late 20's, doctor, speaks 5 languages fluently, no children, but would love to start a family, prefers older men 50-65." The scam, after you spend $10K plus, is she isn't a doctor, speaks almost no English, isn't in her 20's and she shows up with her two brothers, who are big fellas and need a place to stay......:crying:........did I mention she has a teenage daughter whose biological father just put a contract out on you.....oh wait, I think that was a Law and Order episode.

[rgray]

Today, I received an email responding to my CL mandolin ads.

The email sender says he/she want to buy my mandolin at my asking price ;-)
, but still on business trip so will send a money order to me, then arrange for an assistant to come over to pick up. The send request my name and my address (should be no big deal).

This is the 3-rd time I got this kind of email.

The first time, the "buyer" said he wrote a check for an amount 200$ more than my asking price, and asks me to re-imburse the difference. I replied I will do after I cashed his check. Never heard from this "buyer" again.

I am wondering how this scam works, i.e., how does the scammer make money with this scheme ?

Responses have explained the scam in which the buyer wants to write a check for more than the asking price and the seller is to refund the difference.

But the OP asked how the scam works when the buyer is going to send a "money order" and then have an assistant pick up the mandolin. I haven't dealt with money orders in probably over 30 years, but what happens in this instance?

[Upnorth]

That is such a stretch! You are not paying "their money" to anyone! Your paying "your money" that's the point! There's no "laundering" going on. Straight transaction -you to them! Something in your logic requires that that check is real in some way--it's is not! You did cash a bad check though which the bank will require you to rectify.
If in England you go to a store and make a purchase with a check or a bank card can you get "cash over" like here in the US?--or is that illegal there? That could be considered money laundering by your definition because it's pretty much what you are doing when getting bilked in this scam--your providing "cash over"! only there really isn't any "over"!
I did not use the term "their money", and it is rude of you to imply that I did. Also, my logic does not require the cheque to be real. It merely requires you to pay money in cash to someone you do not know.
I try to be polite when debating on forums, but people like you and housworker really annoy me with your lack of respect. If you cannot avoid misrepresenting what people say, then you would be better off not contributing to the debate.
Maybe it's time I quit this site.

[barney 59]

Responses have explained the scam in which the buyer wants to write a check for more than the asking price and the seller is to refund the difference.

But the OP asked how the scam works when the buyer is going to send a "money order" and then have an assistant pick up the mandolin. I haven't dealt with money orders in probably over 30 years, but what happens in this instance?

This scam has been done with cashiers checks and I don't see that it would be difficult to manufacture a money order but it would probably, just like the cashiers checks, require some inside knowledge as to how the routing works to get passed the first hurdle--getting someone to release the cash. An above poster said how he had been involved in writing bank software--maybe someone like him, or someone like him who got himself in hot water with the bad guys --you know drugs or gambling , having something to sell instead of getting the broken leg treatment. That's apparently been a good source for identity fraud information. You don't need to hack a site just lean on someone with access! Doing this with a postal money order is a sure fire way to get the dogs after you though!

To Upnorth --sorry I offended you but really I just can't follow your logic...directly paying my money that I can justify having( I didn't get it from a drug deal or something) to anyone cannot be considered laundering, otherwise paper money would be absolutely useless instead of the nearly useless that it is.

[Upnorth]

To Upnorth --sorry I offended you but really I just can't follow your logic...directly paying my money that I can justify having( I didn't get it from a drug deal or something) to anyone cannot be considered laundering, otherwise paper money would be absolutely useless instead of the nearly useless that it is.
Can I make it any simpler?

You are invited to pay cash to someone as part of a scam. This person may be the scammer, or it may be someone to whom the scammer owes money. If you are paying money to the scammer, then you are merely being scammed and have broken no law. If however you are paying cash to a third person then you could perhaps be in breach of money laundering laws - at least in the UK.

[JeffD]

Responses have explained the scam in which the buyer wants to write a check for more than the asking price and the seller is to refund the difference.

But the OP asked how the scam works when the buyer is going to send a "money order" and then have an assistant pick up the mandolin. I haven't dealt with money orders in probably over 30 years, but what happens in this instance?

I guess I don't see any difference. The money order is not real. That is the whole of it.