1924 F-5 Master Model Mandolin

[Grateful Grandson]

I have had my Grandfathers mandolin in its case for many years and until
a few days ago never actually looked at it closely. I noticed the two labels
that stated it was a 1924 F-5 Master Model and had the signature of Lloyd
Lear as the acoustic engineer. It is dated Feb 18 1924. It has a pick guard
attached to it. It has a number listed there as well. It is in good shape but has
some scratches on it. All the strings are there except one is loose. The metal
piece on the bottom that says Gibson is somewhat tarnished. The inside of the
case in green velvet is still perfect. I live in Southern California and wanted to
know if someone honest I could take it to to have is evaluated and appraised.
Thanks in advance for any info. you can give me.

Grateful Grandson

[multidon]

Take it to Gryphon Strings in Palo Alto. They have a great reputation.

You have just tossed fresh red meat out to our crowd as your mandolin is the holy grail of collectable mandolin, if your description is accurate. There are folks who catalog Lloyd Loar mandolins and yours may very well be an "undiscovered" example.

Retail value could be in the range of 150,000 dollars to over 200,000 dollars depending on a number of factors.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Don is right. If you really have what we think you have, take the 7 or so hour drive to Gryphon and have them look at it. If it needs any work, they will be more than qualified to undertake it.

[Mandomusic]

Assuming this is not an early April Fool's post or a hoax, I suggest you take photos of it and post them here on the Cafe. There are a number of resident experts that are within this community. Based on your description above, you may have one of the most coveted mandolins made. Contingent upon the validity and the condition of the instrument, a very preliminary retail value range would be $125,000 to $175,000.

[Mandomusic]

Agree with the above recommendations (take it to Gryphon). Did not see their posts prior to posting.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

And with one short post, the can was opened and the worms escaped.

[DataNick]

Sounds extraordinary, but I'm willing to play!

Pics as stated above; post here, also send the pics to Gruhns & Carter's in Nashville...

[multidon]

Calling Grateful Grandson! What happened to you?

Brand new member, first post, and absolutely no information on his profile page. Red flags?

Methinks something is rotten in Denmark. Open mouth, suck in bait, chew vigorously, swallow hook, line and sinker.

GG, if you are legit, post pictures. If you don't, then the gullible like me fell for what should have been an obvious hoax.

[DataNick]

Wasn't there a thread not long ago about the likelihood of finding a Loar in Grandpa/Granny's closet?

[Grateful Grandson]

Thank you for the information. I don't know anything about mandolins. I am just as surprised as all that have replied. If that is the best place I'll have to plan a trip
up north when I can. One quick question tho. This is all original even with its signs of wear I wouldn't want to them to change anything would I?

Take it to Gryphon Strings in Palo Alto. They have a great reputation.

You have just tossed fresh red meat out to our crowd as your mandolin is the holy grail of collectable mandolin, if your description is accurate. There are folks who catalog Lloyd Loar mandolins and yours may very well be an "undiscovered" example.

Retail value could be in the range of 150,000 dollars to over 200,000 dollars depending on a number of factors.

[DataNick]

Thank you for the information. I don't know anything about mandolins. I am just as surprised as all that have replied. If that is the best place I'll have to plan a trip
up north when I can. One quick question tho. This is all original even with its signs of wear I wouldn't want to them to change anything would I?

You really need to take pics, if even with your smart phone. The recognized industry experts here can privately confirm and advise you on appraisals and the proper security measures, etc.

[multidon]

And he's back!

Still would like to see pictures. And the serial number could confirm that it is genuine and not a forgery. Some forgeries use serial numbers that are duplicated on a known instrument. And of course if this is a hoax you won't know the serial number.

As far as changing things, you don't want anything invasive if it's in good structural shape. But you do want it set up to be made playable, with new strings and a few non invasive adjustments.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Methinks something is rotten in Denmark. Open mouth, suck in bait, chew vigorously, swallow hook, line and sinker.

There's nothing shameful about taking people at their word. It's a sign that you look for the best rather than the worst in your fellow man.
Time...maybe some pictures will tell if the OP is indeed a blessed and lucky grandson, or a lower form of pond algae.

[Grateful Grandson]

The number on the inside of the mandolin is 86346 To whoever sent the private message I couldn't retrieve it possibly because
of pop up blocker. If you reply here with you email I will send a private reply. Thanks.

[DataNick]

That serial# on a quick search of the F5 Journal appears to date it as late 20s...but I'm no expert on this stuff.

[FLATROCK HILL]

The number on the inside of the mandolin is 86346 To whoever sent the private message I couldn't retrieve it possibly because
of pop up blocker. If you reply here with you email I will send a private reply. Thanks.

When you are logged on to this site, you only need to click on 'Private Messages' (upper left corner, just to right of 'New Posts') to access your messages. No pop-up blocker involved that way.

[multidon]

Absolutely impossible for this to be a signed Lloyd Loar with that serial number. Counterfeit label perhaps?

I find it interesting that all of the members most knowledgable on this subject won't touch this thread with a ten foot pole. Maybe it doesn't pass their smell test?

It's been fun, but I'm out. Nothing more to contribute anyway.

[barry]

[QUOTE=multidon;1379421]Absolutely impossible for this to be a signed Lloyd Loar with that serial number. Counterfeit label perhaps?



I'm going with a "counterfeit post".

[Bob Bass]

Pictures will answer many questions. Additional close-ups of both labels will answer even more, if exterior pictures are not definitive.

There could be explanations for "too late" serial #, as unlikely as that may seem.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Stranger things can happen. But just as a reference: Thile's Loar from the same batch has a serial number of 75316. I am reserving judgment and secretly rooting for the OP.

To the original poster: If you have trouble posting photo, you're welcome to email them to me at gcgdad@yahoo.com, and I'll make sure they are posted.

[sgarrity]

Don is on it....with that serial number something is up if it does indeed have "Loar's" signature inside.

Assuming this post is for real and not a gag......I'm in Venice and would be happy to look at it for you at no charge. There's not a real vintage mandolin expert in LA that I'm aware of. However, the best/easiest thing for you to do is to post pics of the mandolin here. The world's foremost vintage Gibson experts frequent this board and would be more than happy to give you their thoughts.

[Astro]

131249


131250

[f5loar]

I can appreciate those who are not savy enough to know how to post a photo here. So you find a kid, any kid off the street and bring him into your home and have him snap a photo of the front and back, close ups of the those 2 little labels and tell him to post them here and then you shall have your 100% positive answer is it real or is it a fake for FREE! Take it to Gyphron and they charge for appraisal service. We might save you $50 plus your gas if you post photos here first. I'd hate to pay $50 plus my time and gas to find out it's a fake. Yes, Forest, there are fake Gibson mandolins out there and many of them bare the signature of Lloyd Lear, Lloyd Loud, Lloyd Luke and some may even say Lloyd Loar.

[mrmando]

Grandson — don't change or adjust anything until you have this instrument looked at.

If you're able to take photos but haven't been able to post them, just email them to me at martin[dot]stillion[at]gmail[dot]com and I'll post them here.

The serial number 86346 is problematic because it's from late 1930. Serial numbers on mandolins signed by Loar on 2/18/24 fall into two discrete groups with a few stray numbers between them, but 86346 is not within the range.

[Grateful Grandson]

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[mrmando]

I am not one of the confirmed Loar experts here, but based on these photos I'd say this does merit a trip to Palo Alto for a closer look. You could call ahead and ask for Frank Ford. Or, Dexter Johnson at Carmel Music might be another expert you could talk to. It would be great if you could get in-focus photos of the labels, including signature, date, serial number and so forth.

The lowest known serial number on a 2/18/24 instrument is 75305; the highest is 75709. So this is either an authentic Loar whose serial number has been altered for some reason, or it's a fake ... but at first glance I don't see obvious signs of a fake. Again, however, f5loar and some of our true experts will probably have more to say on the topic.

[Glassweb]

Very interesting. This is obviously a genuine Loar era F5 but the serial number in the 86's does not correspond to the signing date of Feb 18th 1924. Another point... the headstock (where it says "The Gibson" in script) has a front-facing white-black-white binding... a feature that is usually associated with the March 31st signing date "Fern Loars" but also those of the last batch... the December 1st signed Lloyd Loar F5s. The finish on this does look more like a Feb. 18th signing date or the March 31st date than one from the Dec 1st batch but with these pictures it's hard to tell. Many of the Dec. 1st F5s have gold-plated hardware whereas this one has silver-plated. However, just to complicate matters even more, I myself owned a front-facing binding, flower pot inlay (as pictured here) Loar F5 that was from the March 31st batch... most of which were signed Fern Loars with Virzi tone enhancers inside (a whole other can of worms) but mine (and others from that era) featured the flower pot inlay with a Virzi inside. With Lloyd Loar F5s there are MANY exceptions to "the rules" - as in there were MANY variations during the brief period Loar was signing F5 mandolins. I believe the original poster has a genuine article, but as with many Gibson products it seems like it's "business as unusual" with some unanswerable (at this point) questions. My advice would be to take it to Gryphon as they have handled and seen many of these fine mandolins over the years. DO NOT alter a thing at this point as this could easily detract from its value. Buyers are VERY particular these days and a mandolin that's untouched and "fresh to the market" is the most desirable... Hoping this helps! By the way... you should check inside the mandolin to see if there is a Virzi label with a number on it. The Virzi Tone Enhancer itself is a thin wooden disc that you should be able to detect hanging from the top inside of the mandolin. Lots to know about these mandolins my friend!

[Grateful Grandson]

Very interesting. This is obviously a genuine Loar era F5 but the serial number in the 86's does not correspond to the signing date of Feb 18th 1924. Another point... the headstock (where it says "The Gibson" in script) has a front-facing white-black-white binding... a feature that is usually associated with the March 31st signing date "Fern Loars" but also those of the last batch... the December 1st signed Lloyd Loar F5s. The finish on this does look more like a Feb. 18th signing date or the March 31st date than one from the Dec 1st batch but with these pictures it's hard to tell. Many of the Dec. 1st F5s have gold-plated hardware whereas this one has silver-plated. However, just to complicate matters even more, I myself owned a front-facing binding, flower pot inlay (as pictured here) Loar F5 that was from the March 31st batch... most of which were signed Fern Loars with Virzi tone enhancers inside (a whole other can of worms) but mine (and others from that era) featured the flower pot inlay with or without a Virzi inside! With Lloyd Loar F5s there are MANY exceptions to "the rules" - as in there were MANY variations during the brief period Loar was signing F5 mandolins. I believe the original poster has a genuine article, but as with many Gibson products it seems like it's "business as unusual" with some unanswerable (at this point) questions. My advice would be to take it to Gryphon as they have handled and seen many of these fine mandolins over the years. DO NOT alter a thing at this point as this could easily detract from its value. Buyers are VERY particular these days and a mandolin that's untouched and "fresh to the market" is the most desirable... Hoping this helps! By the way... you should check inside the mandolin to see if there is a Virzi label with a number on it. The Virzi Tone Enhancer itself is a thin wooden disc that you should be able to detect hanging from the top inside of the mandolin. Lots to know about these mandolins my friend!

Thank you so much for your help. I wish my grandparents were still alive to be able to ask them if there was any way that someone could have altered the number. I have no reason to believe that my grandfather was not the originial owner. He came over here from Italy and loved the Mandolin. He would have been in his mid twenties if he purchased at the time of the signature. I guess I have a trip to take now> I wil update here when i get a chance to have them check it out.

[Grateful Grandson]

Thank you sir for your time and interest.

[Glassweb]

No problem! By the way, another Loar F5 that I owned had a number that did not match up with the signing date and another one had a non-matching number scratched underneath the pick guard! Now sometimes these numbers are hard to read... so if the the first two digits were 76 instead of 86 that would place your mandolin squarely in the group with the March 31st signing date... which kind of makes sense given its physical characteristics. So what this all adds up to is that there have always been exceptions and anomalies when it comes to these rare and valuable Lloyd Loar mandolins. Just stay cool, bring it to a recognized expert or business of reputation and see how it all unfolds. Most of all be sure not to let it leave your sight in public (or even private) places and never leave it in a hot car or anyplace in the sun. Those black cases heat up fast and the glue will melt and leave you with only pieces of an F5 in your case... and you certainly don't want that!

[BradKlein]

Well there you have all the information that you need to move forward! And the advice to protect it from extreme temperatures, is good advice too! Folks on this forum are intensely interested and passionate about the Gibson mandolins of this period, and many will be interested in what you learn.

There are just a handful of dealers who specialize in buying and selling - restoring and appraising mandolins of this period - and you'll find them in N Cali, Nashville, New York City and a few other places. You can easily get more advice and recommendations if you have any questions at all. And with very careful photographs, you can even get a fairly accurate appraisal from a top dealer without leaving your home. But, I also agree that it will be more fun to arrange a road trip. Avoid your 'local guitar store', where you are more likely to get misinformation than anything you can rely upon.

Best of luck, and thanks for stopping by the Cafe! Do keep us posted. There's an inexhaustible interest in seeing hi quality photos, and hearing about instruments of this period.

[danb]

Hello Grandson,

Everything I see in the photos looks right to me for a 1920s Gibson F5. The serial number falls outside the expected range, but stranger things have happened. Taking it up to Frank Ford at Gryphon Strings in Palo Alto is very good advice. Nothing can replace an in-hand examination by an expert! Gryphon Strings are pillars of the vintage instrument community and well-known for their knowledge and fair dealings.

Another good place to take it would be to Roger Siminoff in Atascadero, CA. Roger is very well-known for his research and documentation of Lloyd Loar and his musical projects- you might be interested to read more at his website here:

http://siminoff.net/loar-background/

As others have said, these are very sought after in our community. Lloyd Loar signed Gibson model F5s are the Stradivariuses of the mandolin world.

It's best to not even clean it at all, and certainly avoid any polish or cleaning products. If you are looking to sell, the value will be significant, and we all wish you well with it!



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[barry]

[QUOTE=multidon;1379421]Absolutely impossible for this to be a signed Lloyd Loar with that serial number. Counterfeit label perhaps?



I'm going with a "counterfeit post".


I stand corrected. Looks legit.

GratefulGrandson,
I still recommend you have it evaluated. If everything checks out as expected, use that appraisal to insure it with Heritage Instrument Insurance. Then, learn to play it.

You'll never need another one. ;)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Perfectly legit...unquestionable.

I'll go in a different direction on the serial number. If I were to look at the pictures, and guess a date and serial, I would put this at the tail end of the February 18, 1924 batch. I would say the serial falls in the 75708-75710 range.

I see absolutely nothing to support the later serial number. There are no later parts, no later nothing here (including a green case, usually found only on instrument leaving before 1925)

[multidon]

Just chiming back in to offer apologies to Grateful Grandson for believing this to be a hoax. The true experts have weighed in and obviously it is not. In my defense there were some red flags here. The seeming reluctance to post photos , since solved, and the discrepancy with the serial, which still needs to be resolved.

I, along with everyone else here, wish GG the best of luck. My advice to him would be to make it a top priority to get it into the hands of an expert for in hand evaluation. You own a piece of history there my friend. It is a wonderful possession but also your responsibility to take care of it properly, IMHO.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Just chiming back in to offer apologies to Grateful Grandson for believing this to be a hoax. The true experts have weighed in and obviously it is not. In my defense there were some red flags here. The seeming reluctance to post photos , since solved, and the discrepancy with the serial, which still needs to be resolved.

I, along with everyone else here, wish GG the best of luck. My advice to him would be to make it a top priority to get it into the hands of an expert for in hand evaluation. You own a piece of history there my friend. It is a wonderful possession but also your responsibility to take care of it properly, IMHO.

In your defense Multidon...the first few posts did sound that way

[Ken Waltham]

I too think it is a Feb 18, 1924. Glassweb, they changed to the front facing peghead binding right after Fred Fishman's F5, the one at Carter's. Colour, script, all looks right. That is undoubtedly the real deal. Something funny about the number, we are missing some information here.
Ken

[Timbofood]

GG, be happy that your grandfather had such taste, have it looked at by the folks mentioned here and that will answer many questions you have or may come up with. If you are not sure what to do with it, you can send it to me and I will give it a very good home full of love and appreciation!:grin:
Merry Christmas in March!

[AlanN]

A photo or 2 of the inside labels would be nice. Very exciting.

[Tom C]

I got chills. Congrats!

[Luna Pick]

Wow.

Not like you need another, but another vote for Frank Ford and the Gryphon folks in Palo Alto.

Looks like the legend continues. . .

[Cary Fagan]

(I'm only posting this because I don't know how to follow a thread without replying and I certainly want to follow this one.)

[Bernie Daniel]

Absolutely impossible for this to be a signed Lloyd Loar with that serial number. Counterfeit label perhaps?

I find it interesting that all of the members most knowledgable on this subject won't touch this thread with a ten foot pole. Maybe it doesn't pass their smell test?

It's been fun, but I'm out. Nothing more to contribute anyway.

Ha ha - -they are bombarding the OP with PM's? But maybe not!:)

What a great discovery -- happy for the OP!

Just when you think there is no chance of finding that long lost Gibson Loar! It isn't over until the fat lady sings...............

[sgarrity]

Wow wow wow.......what a story and what a find! I'll second the recommendation of Roger Siminoff. He's a super nice guy and certainly knows his Loars. Much closer than Gryphon.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Just chiming back in to offer apologies to Grateful Grandson for believing this to be a hoax. The true experts have weighed in and obviously it is not. In my defense there were some red flags here. The seeming reluctance to post photos , since solved, and the discrepancy with the serial, which still needs to be resolved.

I, along with everyone else here, wish GG the best of luck. My advice to him would be to make it a top priority to get it into the hands of an expert for in hand evaluation. You own a piece of history there my friend. It is a wonderful possession but also your responsibility to take care of it properly, IMHO.


In your defense Multidon...the first few posts did sound that way

Exactly. Don, you were the first to jump in here and offer advice...advice that has turned out to be wise and helpful.
And for a while, the story did appear to be somewhat fishy. I mean the "Lloyd Lear" thing...seemed like just the right touch of naivete to bait the hook.

And to Grateful Grandson...congratulations! Thanks for posting the pictures. I apologize for even suggesting that you might turn out to be a member of the Algae family, pond or otherwise. :)

[Canoedad]

I am very happy for Grateful Grandson. Congratulations!

But, just because the instrument is legit doesn't mean we aren't being trolled just a little bit. Just sayin. :whistling:

[Jeff Mando]

But, just because the instrument is legit doesn't mean we aren't being trolled just a little bit. Just sayin. :whistling:

Agreed, but still more interesting than the 172nd thread on the merits of blue chips picks.....

Speaking of trolling, a number of years ago at the Arlington, Texas vintage guitar show, a major player in the world of 1958-60 Gibson Les Paul Sunbursts (200K plus guitars, think--Loar collector's with 10X more testosterone, personality-wise!) had an interesting guitar on his table. "Obviously" a 1958 Les Paul Sunburst, no price, no other info displayed....for the first two days he was swarmed with interest, but played it cool letting the fever build among the interested...on the third day he revealed that it was a fake, a perfect one, with all original and correct 50's parts, as well as the case. Not sure what his game was other than to prove all the experts could be fooled, which they were....people were not amused to find out, believe me.

[terzinator]

If there was ever a thread to put that emoticon with the eating of the popcorn, this is it.

[danmills]

I really should have done a better job of choosing my grandparents...

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I will nominate this for thread of the year (unless someone finds 2 Loars in their closet later).

[Willie Poole]

Deleted

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Oh dang... Looks like a really good one. Congratulations! Now make that drive as fast as you can.

EDIT: Another vote for Roger Siminoff who'd be much closer, and probably know more about Loar than anyone.

[JeffD]

Even the case detritus looks period appropriate. I would love to see those picks in a better photograph.

[terzinator]

And we still need a photo of the label!

There's an 11-year-old (exactly!) thread out there about "How Many Loars Exist"

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?375-How-Many-Loars-Exist

If, according to that thread, there are 311 or so that were built; and we have a bunch of them accounted for on the mandolin archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?loar), is it possible to ascertain/guess the serial numbers of the undiscovered/extant instruments?

[f5loar]

Maybe it was my plea for photos and possible fake and the thought of spending the money to find out it's fake that encouraged him to post a few photos. So now you got your answer in that it's real, it's worth the drive to one of 2 recommendations and you will be pleased with the outcome no matter what the serial number is or was. I agree it's likely a late Feb. 18, 1924. Virizi or not it's a pile of cash sitting here. While it won't buy a big house in southern LA, it will buy you a mansion here in Salisbury, NC. If you are working I would ask for the day off and head North to see in person either Roger or Frank and have something in a written appraisal when I left. Call ahead for an appointment to make sure they are there to greet you. Don't touch a thing and keep from heat and extreme cold. You might even be able to get a TV spot on the this new "Strange Inheritance" show on FOX Business channel. At the end of the show they ask you to contact them if you got a strange inheritance. This story would qualify.

[JeffD]

Based on the pictures it could be worth life changing amounts of money. I hope it all works out well, and that Grandson stays in touch.

[f5loar]

Absolutely impossible for this to be a signed Lloyd Loar with that serial number. Counterfeit label perhaps?

I find it interesting that all of the members most knowledgable on this subject won't touch this thread with a ten foot pole. Maybe it doesn't pass their smell test?

It's been fun, but I'm out. Nothing more to contribute anyway.
PS: If you could smell photos posted here, those photos would pass the "smell" test. Just saying!

[Darryl Wolfe]

And we still need a photo of the label!

There's an 11-year-old (exactly!) thread out there about "How Many Loars Exist"

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?375-How-Many-Loars-Exist

If, according to that thread, there are 311 or so that were built; and we have a bunch of them accounted for on the mandolin archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?loar), is it possible to ascertain/guess the serial numbers of the undiscovered/extant instruments?

That number now stands at 340 with 237 verified.

Yes...my spreadsheet interpolates the serial numbers. Here is a mild example. The "15" is a cell formula value based on the end of batch points I have designated. 76712 is part of another batch above (albeit L5/K5's) that has 15 as the interpolated number. Isn't that a coincidence

76712 76712 K5 Mando-cello
76778 76778 F5 Mandolin
76779 F5 Mandolin
15 76780 F5 Mandolin
76781 F5 Mandolin
76782 F5 Mandolin
76784 F5 Mandolin
76787 F5 Mandolin
76788 F5 Mandolin
76789 F5 Mandolin
76790 F5 Mandolin
76791 F5 Mandolin
76792 76792 F5 Mandolin
1 76801 76801 F5 Mandolin
1 76880 76880 F5 Mandolin

well that hosed up...I'll post a screen shot

Here:

[Timbofood]

On a slight side note, I see Loar mandolins, mando cellos but, no mandolas. Is that right or am I wrong and just not looking in the appropriate places? Just curious.

[JAK]

If it were me, I'd call "Westwood Music" in Los Angeles, and find out if they have someone who can appraise/evaluate it. Seems like they are primarily a guitar store, but they've been around a long time and have dealt in vintage instruments for many years, catering to some of the "big guns" musicians who have made it in music.

[BradKlein]

Appraisal isn't really the issue here. The owner can get a 'perfectly adequate for insurance purposes' appraisal from Gruhn online for $50 HERE (https://guitars.com/appraisals) - if he can find someone who knows how to take photos.

The next steps depend on what the owner wants to do with the instrument. He may not want or ask for any more advice from 'us' -- but I am hoping that we'll learn more about the instrument's history, condition, particulars.

[Timbofood]

Go see Roger Siminoff, one of the most Loar knowledgeable people on the planet.

[Darryl Wolfe]

On a slight side note, I see Loar mandolins, mando cellos but, no mandolas. Is that right or am I wrong and just not looking in the appropriate places? Just curious.

None made during that brief slice in time a depicted

[Timbofood]

Thanks Darryl, I always thought that it was just me not seeing them. Interesting factoid.

[pheffernan]

On a slight side note, I see Loar mandolins, mando cellos but, no mandolas. Is that right or am I wrong and just not looking in the appropriate places? Just curious.

Carter Vintage has a Loar signed H5 mandola: http://www.cartervintage.com/mandopage/gibsonmandolins/gibsonmandolins.html#h5.
As does Gruhn: http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8139-1924-gibson-h-5-mandola.

[f5loar]

This is not your typical "on-line" appraisal IMO. Someone of knowledge will need to see it in order to know condition of neck. Sitting unplayed for many years at tension could have caused damage. It appears that is the case here in that only one string came loose. Also other possible through the body cracks the owner is not seeing. The fact I see MAPES strings and that other string in the case along with the other "stuff" indicates this mandolin has not seen a lot of action in a long, long time. Roger and Frank are the only ones I would trust on this one. Westwood as you said is a guitar store. See my post about Greg Boyd on dating Gibson mandolins. They wouldn't know what to do even with the date staring them in the face when it comes to figuring out this serial no. not fitting in the order it should. While Westwood could do it, they would be my absolute last choice. McCabe still there in LA? I would trust them over Westwood. If I knew now what he knows I'd be in the car now heading North.

[William Smith]

There still out there kids! Just awaiting to be loved!

[mrmando]

If it were me, I'd call "Westwood Music" in Los Angeles.
Nope. What's needed at this stage is an in-person inspection by a recognized Loar expert. You won't find one of those at Westwood, McCabe's or anywhere else in L.A. I can think of. I got my snakehead A4 at way below market value because someone at McCabe's botched the appraisal on it.

Ken, Darryl, Tom and Dan, not to mention Glassweb, have weighed in on the photos, so we can consider it authenticated on their say-so.

Now we need Frank, Roger or Dexter to take a look at it, evaluate it for any needed repairs and see if they can formulate a plausible theory about the serial number.

[Steve Sorensen]

Awesome story developing here. Wow.
Steve

[sgarrity]

I've been to all of those music stores and I can tell you with confidence that my mandolin knowledge exceeds all of theirs, combined. Take that for what it's worth. :cool: Los Angeles is just not a mandolin city. Sure they exist here and there are some very very fine players (and builders!) that live here. But no one here can provide what this situation now needs and that's an in-hand inspection from a Gibson/Loar expert.

It's time to drive up to see Roger or hop on a plane to Nashville.

[Rodney Riley]

And please please please, don't wash, wipe, polish, sand or grind any of the dust, dirt or grime off. Just think that each wipe is taking off $100.00 of its value. It's a "barn find" and the dirt is it's most valued feature. (At least until you know what you have)

[Bob Bass]

Good to see even low resolution pictures!

I'm glad our resident experts chimed in!

It seems that we may have some real history here along w/a bit of a mystery.

This is one of the fun things about this "place"!

Looking forward to further developments, pictures and information.

[KevinM]

<ordering another box of popcorn> this movie is fantastic. And it's real life. I hope we hear back from Grandson.

[DataNick]

Great to see that that the Grandparent with the "old" mandolin that turns out to be a Loar story still lives.

There's still hope for some of us out there...LOL!

[John Kinn]

This is the post we all wait for, but never believe will appear! Fantastic! :)

[DataNick]

So by the numbers posted here by the experts, there's in the neighborhood of a hundred or so unaccounted for?

If you take 50% of that, a relatively decent chance of 50 being out there...California Dreamin'...LOL!

[fatt-dad]

yeah, I got to tag this thread also. . .

So, will the OP continue to love this mandolin as his grandfather did?

just a great story!

f-d

[Timbofood]

You know, living in Kalamazoo, I still hope I will fall over one from some old friends grandparent who heard I play mandolin! Something to dream about, I guess.
Say Grateful Grandson, do you play or have any interest in playing, just curious?
What a cool find.

[DataNick]

You know, living in Kalamazoo, I still hope I will fall over one from some old friends grandparent who heard I play mandolin! Something to dream about, I guess.


Timbofood,

For you Bro!

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?"

Robert Kennedy

[Timbofood]

Thanks Nick, need a little lift, just been made aware of a health issue which will be life changing, not feeling too "up" right now.
Appreciate the thought.

[KEB]

It's time to drive up to see Roger or hop on a plane to Nashville.

Can you imagine the feeling you'd get from a gate agent telling you that you'd have to check your instrument? How about the businessman trying to jam his oversized roll-aboard into the overhead next to you? Heck, I'd be terrified to let the instrument go through the metal detector with a ham-handed security guard able to touch it.

Glad all I've got is an Eastman and a National... the stress of a Gibson Loar would do me in.

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

The number on the inside of the mandolin is 86346 To whoever sent the private message I couldn't retrieve it possibly because
of pop up blocker. If you reply here with you email I will send a private reply. Thanks.

Could it be 80346? that would put it in the right year.

[DataNick]

Can you imagine the feeling you'd get from a gate agent telling you that you'd have to check your instrument? How about the businessman trying to jam his oversized roll-aboard into the overhead next to you? Heck, I'd be terrified to let the instrument go through the metal detector with a ham-handed security guard able to touch it.

Glad all I've got is an Eastman and a National... the stress of a Gibson Loar would do me in.

That's when you go out and invest in a top-tier case (Calton, Hoffee, insert-your-favorite) to protect your valuable mandolin investment. Or drive acroos the country or up to NoCal...

[blawson]

...use that appraisal to insure it with Heritage Instrument Insurance...



Barry's suggestion is, I think, not receiving enough emphasis. This mandolin is likely worth a lot of money. The first order of business, before driving or flying anywhere, is to make sure that it is insured with Heritage, at least based on the input of the experts here.

God forbid that anything happen driving this thing around uninsured... First step is to financially protect your inheritance. My $0.02.

[DataNick]

Barry's suggestion is, I think, not receiving enough emphasis. This mandolin is likely worth a lot of money. The first order of business, before driving or flying anywhere, is to make sure that it is insured with Heritage, at least based on the input of the experts here.

God forbid that anything happen driving this thing around uninsured... First step is to financially protect your inheritance. My $0.02.

I wonder if the insurance company would send out their own appraiser?

[Tobin]

Definitely insure it. Like, immediately. But yeah, Heritage will need an appraisal. They will perhaps go ahead and issue the policy, but a claim would depend on the appraisal. They told me that I could get the appraisal done wherever I wanted. But it needs to be done by someone knowledgeable.

[mrmando]

Yeah, Heritage Insurance does have a guy who handles high-value instruments. His name is Ellis Hershman.

Heritage is very easy to deal with. Check them out: http://www.musicins.com/

[mrmando]

Could it be 80346? that would put it in the right year.
Well, 80346 is within the range of serial numbers for instruments signed on 12/31/24, but not 2/18/24.

Spann's book would have 80346 shipping in late 1926, BTW.

[JeffD]

Were it me (and it is not), I would not want the responsibility of owning and stewarding such an instrument. Upon confirmation of what it was I would (just me, I am not suggesting anyone do this) sell it immediately, and buy maybe four or five of the very best mandolins being made today, and a couple or three vintage snakehead A styles.

And breath a sigh of relief that I didn't own something so irreplaceable.

But that's me. I want my avocation to be fun, not an overwhelming responsibility.


Do you think Chris Thile keeps his Loar at home? I wonder.

I have always been enamored of what Allison Stephens did with her original Vinaccia. She had a very careful reproduction of it made, and then put the original on display at a museum, if memory serves, and she played and toured with the high end copy. Something like that. Others would remember better than I.

[mtucker]

I this is all true then...

Keep it in a nice cool spot
love it up every night
Get an appraisal from Roger S. yesterday (nice ride up the coast), love him up, too.
Do what you wish with insurance, but it will be big bucks if it is.. what it is...
Talk to Dexter and Banana and see if they have prospects for a good home...rub Banana's head!
Talk to folks privately that are on this board and have major experience with these, several have weighed in.
It's a very small world so with some sleuthing you can get to the bottom fairly quickly.

NFI w/ Siminoff, Dexter or Banana or others on this message board ;)

[allenhopkins]

Wow!

Nice guys/gals can win the Powerball jackpot;

Garage tinkerers can found Apple;

Thirty-five year old college baseball coaches, elbows held together with screws, can win major league contracts;

Obscure musicians can record songs in their basements, that lead to stardom;

Little-known state legislators can jump from State House to White House in a decade or so;

And Lloyd Loar Gibson F-5's can still be found in attics and closets!

Sure is a wonderful world...

[f5loar]

You would not count the X number of Loars that are known to be out there but not listed on the Archives list. There are many shy collectors/pickers that do not want their serial nos. on the list. There are still pickers living in remote areas of the USA who have no internet access that have never heard of the mandolincafe.com or the F5Journal. And then there are those who think they own a Loar, who tell people they have a Loar, but it's not a Loar. Hopefully those are not on the list either. Insurance not needed now. Just don't leave your car unlocked at the rest areas you stop along the way to get it checked out. On this trip do not dine in, but dine in your car after going through a drive through. And I'm sure Thile carries his home every night. There are dozens of pro pickers that still use their real Loars on stage week after week, year after year. Even after Monroe had his vandalized with a fire poker he continued to pick it on stage until the day he died.

[mrmando]

Don't insure it (big bucks)
At least call Heritage for a quote before you decide not to insure! You don't even need an appraisal, you just tell Heritage how much you want to insure it for — or at least that's how it works with less expensive instruments.

My annual premium with Heritage is about 0.625 percent of the total value of the instruments I have insured (granted, they don't add up to the value of a Loar). Using that math, insuring for $150,000 would cost you $937.50 a year.

[mtucker]

At least call Heritage for a quote before you decide not to insure! You don't even need an appraisal, you just tell Heritage how much you want to insure it for — or at least that's how it works with less expensive instruments.

My annual premium with Heritage is about 0.625 percent of the total value of the instruments I have insured. Using that math, insuring for $150,000 would cost you $937.50 a year.

I did revise my suggestion while you were posting, I'm slow on the keyboard ... Calling Heritage could be the right move, although you'd have to pop a big check to indemnify!

[Jim Garber]

Do you think Chris Thile keeps his Loar at home? I wonder.

Punch Brothers played for the Sunday night concert at my daughter's college graduation at Oberlin College in Ohio. He played one of his Loars, for sure.



I have always been enamored of what Allison Stephens did with her original Vinaccia. She had a very careful reproduction of it made, and then put the original on display at a museum, if memory serves, and she played and toured with the high end copy. Something like that. Others would remember better than I.

Some of those 18th century instruments are seriously fragile and really do belong more in a museum with maybe occasional playing.

[Jim Garber]

On a slight side note, I see Loar mandolins, mando cellos but, no mandolas. Is that right or am I wrong and just not looking in the appropriate places? Just curious.


Carter Vintage has a Loar signed H5 mandola: http://www.cartervintage.com/mandopage/gibsonmandolins/gibsonmandolins.html#h5.
As does Gruhn: http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8139-1924-gibson-h-5-mandola.

There is a Loar-signed quartet in the Jonathan Kellerman collection and depicted in his book with a signed mandola as well. Wait, I played the one that Scott T played in the video at Mandolin Brothers -- is that the one at Carter's now?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT6TByJvCf4

[re simmers]

Looks like I'm in the minority, but I would insure it, then play it like there's no tomorrow. You would never get the smile off my face. :)

Bob

[Jeff Mando]

Were it me (and it is not), I would not want the responsibility of owning and stewarding such an instrument.
But that's me. I want my avocation to be fun, not an overwhelming responsibility.

Do you think Chris Thile keeps his Loar at home? I wonder.


I'm just guessing Thile keeps it handy, beside him on his sofa while he watches television. I'm sure he "thinks" like a musician, not a stockbroker. As far as theft goes, the average person would have no idea what Thile's Loar is worth. Most of his fans would not know. The average criminal would certainly not know. If it were to be stolen, it couldn't be marketed or advertised because everyone would know whose it is--if not by the date and serial, by the big scratch we discussed on this forum! :grin: OTOH, it could be stolen, just as any instrument can be stolen, then sold unknowingly (of its true value) to a pawn shop, Craigslist, etc, for a small amount of money as a used Gibson. But, as soon as the person buying it did some reseach, the truth would be known--first feelings of jubilation, then the feeling of "oh, no, it's stolen".

[Peter LaMorte]

I think it may be time for mandolin lessons. This is his Grandfather's instrument, yeah insure it, but heck hold it, play it, and cherish it..... just my 2 cents. Very neat story.

[Bill Baldock]

This situation would be like a curse to me. My Grandfather left me a 1930's Old Kraftsman archtop guitar. I play it and cherish it greatly. I don't feel the need to insure it and I will never be tempted to sell it. I could not say the same if it were a Loar mandolin. Grateful.

[f5loar]

Monroe's 2nd Loar was reported stolen shortly after his death in 1996. It still has not been found. James Monroe had insurance on it.

[GKWilson]

If it were mine I'd sell it right away.
I'd buy a Kimble two point to round out my collection,
and a nice little cabin on the Naches River with a great pickin' porch.
I'd invite my buddies over and we'd pick some of my Grandfathers favorite tunes.
If I kept it, it would be stolen, or dropped, or a school bus would run it over.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Whilst not being a 'Loar' fanatic,i'm as eager as anybody to find out if this is the real thing,mainly for the OP's benefit. If it turns out to be an authentic 'Loar',then as we know, it will be worth a lot of money. If it was mine,& having the real potential of being a Lloyd Loar mandolin,i'd be sitting on the doorstep of Gryphon Stringed instruments (maybe not sitting,but jumping up & down) waiting to see Frank Ford, in double quick time.
It needs appraising for what it is, & also an examination regarding it's condition & any possible work required to be done on it. Only then can the owner decide what to do with it, & present any prospective buyer with an accurate description of it,
Ivan;)

[James Rankine]

No doubt the pictures are of a very interesting mandolin.
I'd like to see a picture of the Lloyd Lear label.

[danb]

294 in the archive..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/signature_dates.html

[Astro]

Well I am happily surprised. Very exciting to see such a beautiful instrument recovered and reintroduced--however it turns out.

And I hope the OP will keep in touch and let us know. We all want to see a Charlie Brown catch Lucy off guard just once and punt that thing out the ball park !

PLEASE, find time to take some more pictures and report back on the appraisal when you can.

[Darryl Wolfe]

294 in the archive..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/signature_dates.html

Looks like we need to reconcile again..I'm 4 off. 291 is total Loar instruments..241 mandolins

[Tobin]

Were it me (and it is not), I would not want the responsibility of owning and stewarding such an instrument. Upon confirmation of what it was I would (just me, I am not suggesting anyone do this) sell it immediately, and buy maybe four or five of the very best mandolins being made today, and a couple or three vintage snakehead A styles.

And breath a sigh of relief that I didn't own something so irreplaceable.

But that's me. I want my avocation to be fun, not an overwhelming responsibility.

Not that it will ever happen to me, but I would take the exact opposite approach. Owning a Loar isn't any different than owning any other great mandolin. All this "responsibility" stuff is just in our heads. Sure, I'd want to take care of it and protect the value, but it's still just a mandolin. I'd love it and cherish it, but I'd play the snot out of it. If I ever sold it, I know I'd be kicking myself every day for the rest of my life for letting it go. Which is to say, the regret would be more of a burden than the responsibility.



294 in the archive..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/signature_dates.html

Wow, I never realized that he signed 46 labels on February 18th, 1924. If we include this new one, it would be 47. That's one busy day of signing one's name. A typical 8-hour day is 480 minutes, so he signed a label about every 10 minutes on average. Which, I suppose, is not unrealistic if he spent 10 minutes inspecting each one to make sure it met his standards. But one wonders: did he actually inspect more than this and rejected some of them? Was this batch actually spread out over the course of days or weeks, and he just put the same date on all of them?

[darrylicshon]

If i ever found one i wouldn't be able to justify keeping it to my wife , but i would play it for a few months atleast before i sold it, then i would go by most likely uesd Nugget or something of the like and would be very happy knowing i owned and played alot , a Loar. And would enjoy my new Nugget

[Cheryl Watson]

Wow, what a find! Congrats to Grateful Grandson! It's a really pretty Loar and the experts will get it in perfect working order without diminishing its value. I'm so proud of all the helpful, honest and knowledgeable members of the Mandolin Cafe who are giving great advice to the grandson.

OK, some of you might get a kick out of this: I just told my bluegrass hatin' mama (she's 91 yrs. old on Friday, her birth year is 1924) this story and just mentioned that I wish MY Grandfather had played a Gibson Lloyd Loar and she said, "Your Grandfather played the juice harp." No such luck for us-- :)):crying:

[Jeff Mando]

Wow, I never realized that he signed 46 labels on February 18th, 1924. If we include this new one, it would be 47. That's one busy day of signing one's name. A typical 8-hour day is 480 minutes, so he signed a label about every 10 minutes on average. Which, I suppose, is not unrealistic if he spent 10 minutes inspecting each one to make sure it met his standards. But one wonders: did he actually inspect more than this and rejected some of them? Was this batch actually spread out over the course of days or weeks, and he just put the same date on all of them?

I'm guessing Taylor Swift signs her name a lot more than 47 times a day......she's no Lloyd Loar, but she does have a signature model guitar! ;)

Logic would say Loar signed a "stack" of labels on his desk and applied them as the instruments were ready. I can't see 47 being finished in one day. That logic would account for missing numbers, etc.

As far as value goes, years ago when the "vintage guitar thing" started my friend who bought and sold came over to look at my collection. He would pick up a guitar and say "this is cool how often do you play it?" I would say, "never, I just keep it because it is cool and I paid $100 for it." His response was, "it is now worth $4000, so it, in effect, is costing you $4000 to keep it." (money that could be used for other things) Anyway, I took his advice and sold a lot of cool things that I had for years. I wish now that I had never listened to him.

[terzinator]

My car-nut cousin once said this: "I've learned I can own pretty much any car out there that I want to. I just can't own them all at once."

So, with respect to this side conversation of "what I would do if it were me who inherited a Loar out of the blue" I'd hop in the car and bring it up to Gryphon and get it appraised, sure. I'd go to Frank Ford or someone equally respected, and have it evaluated and checked out for anything loose or cracked or otherwise untoward. (In my neck of the woods, I might bring it over to Hans Brentrup.)

And then, I'd play it for a while. Maybe a month. If it was all that, if it gave me chills when playing it, if it amazed me daily, I would keep it for a while longer. Maybe a year. Because there are very few "things" that can do that. It might get me to practice my scales.

I'd think about contacting Grisman or Reicschman or Thile or whomever, and letting them have a go at it, and maybe record a little something on it, for posterity. (I'd want to sit in on those sessions to watch, I know that.)

But I'd always have in the back of my mind that I could let it go back into the wild, if I wanted, to let someone else have a chance to own it. And then I'd find something else, that might be less valuable, but equally interesting.

And I'd be satisfied with the memory of having owned a Loar for a while.

[BradKlein]

...she said, "Your Grandfather played the juice harp." No such luck for us-- :)):crying:

I hadn't heard of the "juice harp", and didn't know that it's an old alternative to Jews or Jaw Harp! Here's what wiki has to say:

"There are many theories for the origin of the name Jew's harp. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, this name appears earliest in Walter Raleigh's Discouerie Guiana in 1596, spelled "Iewes Harp." The "jaw" variant is attested at least as early as 1774[6] and 1809,[7] the "juice" variant appeared only in the late 19th and 20th centuries… Theories that the name is a corruption of "jaws" or "jeu" are described by the Oxford English Dictionary as "baseless and inept""

[Spruce]

If it were mine I'd sell it right away.

IMHO, this is a lousy time to be selling a Loar, unless you really need the bones...
After seeing a well-known Loar going for 165K after supposedly selling for 225K not all that long ago, I'd be thinking of buying one if you had the scratch...

So-ooo, I think you'd look back 10 years from now and really regret it...
Just my .02, and obviously YMMV...

[Timbofood]

I'm with you Bruce, if it fell in my lap, I'd enjoy being a custodian for as long as I wanted, then, when they go through the roof again part with it. And, like you Chris, enjoy the fond memories to my dying day, or as long as memory serves, whichever comes first.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

If those pictures are of his actual mandolin, it's a Loar. If it's not, I'm a monkey's uncle.

If that was a fake, I'd still pay quite a bit to own it. Just gorgeous.

[Jeff Mando]

If you consign it to a dealer they will take a (large) percentage and it might take months or years to find a big-money buyer. If you sell it yourself on eBay, eBay and Paypal will take a combined 14 percent off the top and the sale is reported to the IRS with a 1099 form as income. You could place an ad on your local Craigslist and maybe somebody will bring you a shoebox full of cash! (unlikely and somewhat dangerous) You could sell at one of the large guitar shows for cash. (yes, some buyers carry THAT kind of money!) OR sell here on the Classifieds, once you have the appraisal. To avoid Paypal fees, you can use a bank wire to transfer the money, the cost is minimal, less than $35, you will still have to report it as income.

(sorry to ruin the fun..)

[Timbofood]

Or one could "put the word out" in some circles and keep your mouth shut when the bag of cash shows up, rather like buying moonshine, heh, heh:cool:


Oh, and keep your mouth shut.

[DataNick]

Here's a philosophical question for everyone:

If your basic needs for living (adequate food, housing, clothing, transportaion, medical care, and adequate disposal finances) were guaranteed for the rest of your life; would you keep a Loar "given" to you on the condition that you could never sell it?

I would...

[OldGus]

Grandpa rocks!

[George R. Lane]

Here's a philosophical question for everyone:

If your basic needs for living (adequate food, housing, clothing, transportaion, medical care, and adequate disposal finances) were guaranteed for the rest of your life; would you keep a Loar "given" to you on the condition that you could never sell it?

I would...

In a heartbeat.

[Timbofood]

Could I "rent" it?:))
If I could bequeath it to my grandchildren I would in a heartbeat

[rfloyd]

"you will still have to report it as income."

What is the rule on inheritances being tax free?

[Jordan S.]

Frankly, I'd probably sell it and put my kids through college.

Kids ruin everything...

[DataNick]

Could I "rent" it?:))
If I could bequeath it to my grandchildren I would in a heartbeat

The scenario is that "you" could never "sell it"...bequeathing it to someone in a will is another matter...

What I'm getting at is that it seems a lot of us on the cafe are looking at a Loar as equity that could be used to obtain something else versus the experience of having an incredible instrument to enjoy, without any relation to the needs (not desires) of life.

If I don't need anything basic, why wouldn't I keep a Loar on the condition that I could never sell it. Meaning if grandpa left it to me in his will on that condition, would I accept it?

I would!

[DataNick]

"you will still have to report it as income."

What is the rule on inheritances being tax free?

OK so that is what it would "cost me"....no biggie from where I stand...

[Timbofood]

That's what I was thinking Nick.
It's just like diamonds, they are only worth the vast amounts of money they demand when someone opens a checkbook or smashes the counter and steals it. Until the demand is made, it really is just so much wood, or carbon depending on the case.
If I had one and could not be allowed to sell it, I think I could make myself happy with it.
If it was just a "gift" I don't think the tax issue comes into play. Inheritance? "Gee, it's just some old mandolin, sir."

[DataNick]

Yeah Tim!

To me the experience of being able to play, enjoy, and hear the sounds coming from arguably the best class of mandolin ever made far outweighs any kind of material gain obtained by selling it.

[Timbofood]

Just remember...
"Anticipation is better than realization!"
Or at least that's what some guy who didn't have siccem said.

[mtucker]

Or one could "put the word out" in some circles and keep your mouth shut when the bag of cash shows up
My guess is that the word is already out. May be surprised who checks the Cafe regularly for lite reading specifically relating to these instruments.

[Timbofood]

Yes, the "Loarshine" underground....

[mtucker]

:grin:

[DataNick]

Just remember...
"Anticipation is better than realization!"
Or at least that's what some guy who didn't have siccem said.

Oh, I agree...I was just musing that if any of us would have been in the position of "Grateful Grandson", would we be looking to maximize profits, or enjoy the qualities (that go beyond $$ in my mind) of an incredible instrument? That is assuming his Loar is a "keeper".
There's no right or wrong, just preference. Is your preference to enjoy and experience art, or sell the art? Because when you get down to it, an incredible mandolin (Loar, Gilchrist, Dude, Nugget, Red Diamond, Gibson MM, Ellis, etc) is a work of art.

[t.drexel]

I think if it was a gift it WOULD be taxed as IRS gifts are limitted to $12,00.00/yr without taxation. On the other hand I believe Inheritance taxes , Federal that is, do not begin until the Estate is in excess of $650,000.

[Timbofood]

You know, we still don't know if "Grateful Grandson" plays or not, do we? I hope he does or is at least willing to learn, he won't need a "better one" down the road.

Who's going to go to the IRS and say, "Look, I just was given this $100k mandolin, how much do I have to give you?"
Just a question. I don't know that I would even think of it, honestly.

[DataNick]

...Who's going to go to the IRS and say, "Look, I just was given this $100k mandolin, how much do I have to give you?"
Just a question. I don't know that I would even think of it, honestly.

Yeah, and the operative word is "inherited"...

[Timbofood]

"I just found this under the bed!"

[Andrew B. Carlson]

I'd keep it to play till it made no sense. But I'd be awful tempted to sell, buy one of The unsigned Loars, and pocket the rest.

[sblock]

Well yes, one could decide to keep it and play it. OR, one could sell it for $175,000, and use the money collected to buy -- let's see, hmm --

1) a Gilchrist F5
2) a Dudenbostel F5
3) a Nugget F5
4) a Monteleone Radio Flyer
5) a Gibson Distressed Master Model F5
6) a Giacomel J5
7) an Ellis F5
8) an Altman F5

...and still have a bit of cash left over to buy Hoffee or Calton hardshell cases for every one of these!!!

(or pick another set of great modern instruments, each priced $25,000 or under)

You have to ask yourself about the best way to appease your MAS and indulge your inner mandolinist. Own eight top-end mandolins, or one Lloyd Loar. And with eight mandolins, think of all the trading that you could do if one or more of these proved to be a disappointment?

I know which way I'd go. How about you?!

[DataNick]

I'd keep it to play till it made no sense. But I'd be awful tempted to sell, buy one of The unsigned Loars, and pocket the rest.

That's a very practical option; however in this scenario, the "sacrifice" to own the piece of "art" is to never be able to sell it.

[DataNick]

...And with eight mandolins, think of all the trading that you could do if one or more of these proved to be a disappointment?

I know which way I'd go. How about you?!

Your logic as usual is well thought out and inviting. However in my scenario, the "condition" for receiving the "gift" of the Loar precludes any ability to sell it. Would you take it knowing you could never turn it into gold (or other mandolins)?

See post #119

[Peter LaMorte]

I'm with you Data, If it is any of us other than this Kid, then maybe. Let me put it this way. Most of us have nice instruments. I have a D-18 73, it's maybe worth $1500, I wouldn't consider selling it for $6,000, I have a Turkey Creek, wouldn't sell that either. I love my instruments, most likely as much as This Kids Grandfather loved his Gibson. That being said unless it went to a named artist that you could continue to enjoy the music made from it, there is no way in hell I'd sell it, but that's just me.

[KEB]

So option 1 is nothing.

Option 2 is an amazing mandolin?

Id definitely choose Option 1.

In the OPs case, I'd probably keep it for a few months playing it very carefully, and then sell it off. I'd take some portion of that cash-- way more than I'd currently pay for a mandolin -- maybe in the $5-10k range and go to Gruhn's, Carter, and Elderly and play every single instrument. I bet you that I could find one that played perfectly (for me!) at that price. I'd end up with a life-time mandolin selected from among the best in the world, the memory (and story) of playing one of the most valuable mandolins in the world, and a paid off house.

[DataNick]

That's me too Peter...Again my philosophical query has no right or wrong...I'm just curious as to what drives our own particular value system. If $$ is removed as an option to owning (reflected in the pre-condition of being unable to sell) would you still elect to own a work of art, here reflected as a Gibson Loar mandolin. Or, does owning a work of art only provide you meaning if you have the option to turn it into the "gold" of your choice someday?

[DataNick]

So option 1 is nothing.

Option 2 is an amazing mandolin?

Id definitely choose Option 1...


Wow, we really are all quite different!

So to understand you, you would rather have nothing than have a Gibson Loar to enjoy for the rest of your life, on the condition that it must stay yours, correct?

No right or wrong, I'm just fascinated that we are all so very "different strokes for different folks"...LOL!

[barry]

If the original poster's grandfather bought a Loar in 1924, he was likely a well off adult by then. Wouldn't that suggest that the he was born at the turn of the century at the latest? My point is, the original poster is not some young kid who just had a windfall. He's likely in his 60's.

[DataNick]

If the original poster's grandfather bought a Loar in 1924, he was likely a well off adult by then. Wouldn't that suggest that the he was born at the turn of the century at the latest? My point is, the original poster is not some young kid who just had a windfall. He's likely in his 60's.

Absolutely agree that this could be the case Barry. I probably should have started a new thread; it's a devil's advocate, kind of Twilight Zone question/scenario anyway...

[DataNick]

Just started a new thread http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?114045-The-Devil-and-The-Gibson-Loar&p=1380135#post1380135

no need to further hijack this one...

[Jordan S.]

Just started a new thread http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?114045-The-Devil-and-The-Gibson-Loar&p=1380135#post1380135

no need to further hijack this one...

Thank you!

[f5loar]

I think if it was a gift it WOULD be taxed as IRS gifts are limitted to $12,00.00/yr without taxation. On the other hand I believe Inheritance taxes , Federal that is, do not begin until the Estate is in excess of $650,000.
You either don't get out much or you are stuck in the 80's. The estate and gift tax exemption for 2015 is at $5,430,000.00. After that the rate is at 40%. The annual gift tax exclusion stays the same at $14,000.00 per donee. There is no way we know this family estate issues past or present or future. I think he's safe on the Federal Estate taxes but his State taxes might be different. However if his grandfather's executor listed the mandolin at a value of say a few hundred and a few years later same mandolin is sold for $200,000 that could open up a can of worms. Ask James Monroe about under-reporting the value of an expensive mandolin.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Then again, having a "family" Loar would be awesome!

[Timbofood]

Yeah, baby! Get the kids into mandolin and they can enjoy something really cool.

[fatt-dad]

can you get a reverse mortgage on a Loar?

f-d

[Cheryl Watson]

I hadn't heard of the "juice harp", and didn't know that it's an old alternative to Jews or Jaw Harp! Here's what wiki has to say:

"There are many theories for the origin of the name Jew's harp. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, this name appears earliest in Walter Raleigh's Discouerie Guiana in 1596, spelled "Iewes Harp." The "jaw" variant is attested at least as early as 1774[6] and 1809,[7] the "juice" variant appeared only in the late 19th and 20th centuries… Theories that the name is a corruption of "jaws" or "jeu" are described by the Oxford English Dictionary as "baseless and inept""

Well, I did not know that. Juice harp is a corruption. They certainly are. LOL!

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

can you get a reverse mortgage on a Loar?

f-d

If everyone on here pitches in... sure! :)

[Willie Poole]

While I am far from an expert I must admit that when I first saw the pictures the G in Gibson looked like it was too close to one tuning post...I have went back and looked at it quite a few rimes and it still looks like that to me but the experts chimed in and said it was a real Loar and that is good to hear....I will follow this thread to hear more after he gets it checked out ....

Willie

[f5loar]

Gibson luthiers in the 20's were really good but they were not always anal perfect when it came to certain details. You will find variations on position of the logo and the flowerpot. I this case you have to think the inlay went on before the holes were drilled. It was however good enough to the get final stamp of approval and signature and date of Lloyd Loar.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I hope the OP would come back at some point and give us an update. Or better yet, the expert he entrusts this to will. I for one would love to hear more about the Grandpa who bought the mandolin in the first place. Was he a player? In a mando orchestra? Or better yet, a photo or two?

[danmills]

You either don't get out much or you are stuck in the 80's. The estate and gift tax exemption for 2015 is at $5,430,000.00. After that the rate is at 40%. The annual gift tax exclusion stays the same at $14,000.00 per donee. ....

All good points. Even the annual $14k gift tax exclusion does not trigger an immediate tax when exceeded. It just requires that it be reported, and the givers estate tax exclusion is reduced by the actual gift amount. The recipient of a "gift" is never directly taxed, but the estate can be, which of course is effectively taxing the heir(s), and sometimes the heir and the gift recipient are the same person. (I'm talking about the Feds. States have various different laws.)

And now, back to your regularly scheduled [mandolin] programming...

[Timbofood]

I would love to hear more about the family history with regard to how grand father decided that was the mandolin for him.

[Darryl Wolfe]

If the original poster's grandfather bought a Loar in 1924, he was likely a well off adult by then. Wouldn't that suggest that the he was born at the turn of the century at the latest? My point is, the original poster is not some young kid who just had a windfall. He's likely in his 60's.

+1 This is the genealogical trend attached to most Loar finds recently. Somebody getting it from their Dad and it belonged to his Dad

[Darryl Wolfe]

While I am far from an expert I must admit that when I first saw the pictures the G in Gibson looked like it was too close to one tuning post...I have went back and looked at it quite a few rimes and it still looks like that to me but the experts chimed in and said it was a real Loar and that is good to hear....I will follow this thread to hear more after he gets it checked out ....

Willie

Actually Willie, I noticed that after my original post on it's authenticity. That combination of inlay and binding has not been seen on a February 18, 1924 mandolin. 75812 is the first appearance of that and is signed March 31. That overlay also appears regularly on the December 24 mandolins.

These overlays appear to be from early Loars (1922 and early 1923) when the tuners were different and the inlay was placed much lower (but it does have the binding that first appeared in the Feb 24 batch)



Of course that does not mean it is not signed February...it's just a tad unusual

[Ken Waltham]

That statement is just SO RIGHT. Thanks Darryl for that. Maybe not a Feb, but a March 1924. Hopefully we can get this serial number business figured out.

[KEB]

So to understand you, you would rather have nothing than have a Gibson Loar to enjoy for the rest of your life, on the condition that it must stay yours, correct?

D'oh-- I made up the options, and then i mixed em up? Wow-- that's what I get for dashing off a response before heading off to hear Thile play his loar with the punch brothers... yeah, I want the loar.

[Glassweb]

That statement is just SO RIGHT. Thanks Darryl for that. Maybe not a Feb, but a March 1924. Hopefully we can get this serial number business figured out.

Gibson...Business As Unusual

[Jeff Mando]

Once again, the value of the item corrupts the discussion of how great it would be to inherit a signed Loar (and just play it). Granted, for most of us 200K is life changing money, but selling to buy a new refrigerator or paying off old student loans doesn't seem to be on par with having a Loar. (maybe curing cancer or feeding the homeless?....not sure). OTOH, a lot of women have their mother's or grandmother's wedding ring in their jewelery box, for sentimental reasons and no intention of selling--while most are not worth Loar money, many are worth five figures....just sayin'......"Honey, of course, you can keep your mother's ring--I'll just keep this ol' dusty little guitar that grandpaw left me....."

[f5joe]

Once again, the value of the item corrupts the discussion of how great it would be to inherit a signed Loar (and just play it).

I get your point ...... but the OP said .. "I live in Southern California and wanted to
know if someone honest I could take it to to have is evaluated and appraised."

It would be great to inherit a signed Loar.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I get your point ...... but the OP said .. "I live in Southern California and wanted to
know if someone honest I could take it to to have is evaluated and appraised."

It would be great to inherit a signed Loar.

Probably happens now and then.


..actually this OP could have it appraised right here. Gut check says he's gone now

[jjj]

My take - no need to apologize for suspecting GG's original post. We know what the online world is like. Or about the 'show the photos'. I think the group was excited, and moved a lot faster than GG did, in replying. It's a great story, and a grand mystery, with the numbers.
And I understand the desire that he keep it, and play it. But does he have any skill or desire? He likely doesn't need a Stradivarius to noodle with. He might like the money. (ooo-ooh - I recently saw a video where Chris Thile won a $500k MacArthur grant...).

I have a $20k fiddle, and rarely play it. Or any of the other instruments. It's the most valuable thing I own, outside the house. I've had it for 45 years, and paid $200 for it. Wish I had bought 10! I like owning it, and don't 'need' to sell it. That may change, some day. But this LL is a very valuable instrument. It should be in the hands of an expert who would appreciate it. GG is one lucky guy! (I am, too, that my fiddle has never been stolen! I was an old-time musician, and we used to have some big house parties when I lived in Pittsburgh. Thankful for an honest crowd)

And I hope GG sticks with the site, and keeps us informed on what the appraisal was, and if he keeps it or not.
(and really - how much better is this LL than any other quality mandolin? I may sound like a heathen, but I've played a Strad. It didn't sound that much better. The expert who had it on loan surely appreciated it, but I think NPR did a blind test with a few Strad's, and other instruments. They didn't always come out ahead, or by that much. Yet people pay vast sums to own one, and beg to be able to get one on loan. Maybe I have heathen ears and fingers? I also have a 66 Gibson SG. Plug it in, play with the effects - does it sound any better than a new Gibson?
And what are my mandos? In 82, I bought two Harmony's, from the Sears catalog. They were closing them out for $25 a piece. Perfect for the band van and the beach! I also have a Stuart-McDonald kit, that I never got very far on. Someday??? I'll remember to sign it, before it gets glued together. haha It's spelled LOAR, right?

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Perfectly legit...unquestionable.

I'll go in a different direction on the serial number. If I were to look at the pictures, and guess a date and serial, I would put this at the tail end of the February 18, 1924 batch. I would say the serial falls in the 75708-75710 range.

I see absolutely nothing to support the later serial number. There are no later parts, no later nothing here (including a green case, usually found only on instrument leaving before 1925)

Darryl, I might be mistaken, but don't those string post bushings look somewhat larger than the typical Loar period bushings?

[f5loar]

From his original statement "I have had my Grandfathers mandolin in its case for many years and until
a few days ago never actually looked at it closely." is a pretty good indicator he does not play nor know anything about mandolins. If you played the mandolin you would not set aside a Loar for many years and then think about looking at it closely. It's pretty obvious from the stuff left in that case that this Loar has not seen the light of day in decades. And he mentions the one loose string. If he did play he would have replaced the one string and tuned it up to see what it sounds like. Will he learn now that he owns the most sought after mandolin in the world? NOT! Will he sit on it to watch it appreciate in value? NOT! Has he already left to get it looked at and appraised. My money is with Darryl. He got off work or called in sick and he's on his way and likely already back. From what some have said here it's possible he will not ever come on here again so don't hold your breath for that update.

[barry]

According to the original posters profile page, he logged on here at 11:27am today. I doubt he has to call in sick on his way to work. If his grandfather was in his mid twenties in 1924, the man is likely retirement age now. Even if he doesn't play it, it could still just be a valuable, family heirloom to him.

How valuable?

If he realized the label said, "Lloyd Lear (sic) acoustic engineer", and he could find the Mandolin Cafe Forum by searching the internet, he likely suspected what he had prior to posting.

[lenf12]

....and he may just wait until April 1st to let us in on the joke.....:))

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I agree with Tom and jjj. Of course us mando fanatics would jump at the chance of owning a Loar and probably hang on to it for as long as we can. However, I doubt I'd feel the same if I had never bitten the mando bug. I imagine what I'd do if I inherited a Stradivarius. Not being a fiddle or violin player, I probably would get that thing as fast as I can to an auction house, and then buy myself a Loar. Maybe the OP will do the same, and get the '59 Les Paul that he always wanted.

And I have a feeling we haven't heard the last of this new Loar if it turns out to be the real deal.

[Jeff Mando]

You might even be able to get a TV spot on the this new "Strange Inheritance" show on FOX Business channel. At the end of the show they ask you to contact them if you got a strange inheritance. This story would qualify.

Great show, I saw an episode where a grandfather left his adult grandson some comic books from the 40's--turns out they were worth $300K. The guy used the money to rebuild his business after Hurricane Sandy.

[Ivan Kelsall]

It would be nice (& polite) if the OP came back to up-date us on what's happening with his mandolin,but as F5 says,don't hold your breath !.It's an unfortunate fact that lots of folk post on here asking for advice & when it's given,they're gone. It makes one wonder if the best advice would be - '' go find out for yourself '',although most of us on here wouldn't stoop so low as to say that. This thread seems to have built up to an awful anti-climax right now,:(
Ivan:confused:

[Ray(T)]

It might be even better if some members showed a little patience! I know we're all itching to know what the outcome is but it's only four days since his original post. If he is indeed watching peoples comments, it's possible that he might be frightened off. Why should he rely on the advice of a bunch of people he's only just met on line? He's no idea of anybody's credentials.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I live in Southern California and wanted to
know if someone honest I could take it to to have is evaluated and appraised.
Thanks in advance for any info. you can give me.

Grateful Grandson


Why should he rely on the advice of a bunch of people he's only just met on line? He's no idea of anybody's credentials.

Well...there is the fact that he came here to ask for advice.

[Bernie Daniel]

It would be nice (& polite) if the OP came back to up-date us on what's happening with his mandolin,but as F5 says,don't hold your breath !.It's an unfortunate fact that lots of folk post on here asking for advice & when it's given,they're gone. It makes one wonder if the best advice would be - '' go find out for yourself '',although most of us on here wouldn't stoop so low as to say that. This thread seems to have built up to an awful anti-climax right now,:(
Ivan:confused:

I agree Ivan if grateful grandson is also grateful for the advice and time expended on his behalf, perhaps a little follow-up would be polite.

Polite and grateful would be a good combination.

The request for a pic of the label with that out sequence serial number and signature has been made several times but so far nothing?

Now if I found a Loar I probably wouldn't tell you the serial because I might find out something that I did not want to know! LOL!

In this case, the serial has been revealed to the forum so no reason not to show a pic pf the label? I reserve right to entertain the possibility that someone will recognize those photos? As Len suggested maybe April first came early this year and it hooked the whole forum? :))

[Jeff Mando]

Maybe he had to meet with his financial planner.....

[FLATROCK HILL]

I reserve right to entertain the possibility that someone will recognize those photos? As Len suggested maybe April first came early this year and it hooked the whole forum? :))

And I thought I was the only one here who has been scouring the 'F5 Journal' and the 'Loar Picture of the Day' threads looking for the smoking gun. :whistling:

[Bernie Daniel]

And I thought I was the only one here who has been scouring the 'F5 Journal' and the 'Loar Picture of the Day' threads looking for the smoking gun. :whistling:

Did you happen to notice all the scratchs on the treble side under the pick guard? Why you'd almost think some bluegrasser took the pick guard off because, obviously, it killed the sound when he chopped away on it. The strings don't look so old either do they? Just wondering.....

[Bernie Daniel]

Maybe he had to meet with his financial planner.....

Or maybe he still can't stop laughing when he tries to type.........LOL!

[Jordan S.]

Maybe he had to meet with his financial planner.....

I'm with you, Jeff. Perhaps - just maybe - after suddenly discovering a quarter-of-a-million dollar surprise in his closet, the very first thing on his checklist was not: "Log back in to forum and update thread". Lots of cynics here, and you're all possibly correct. Maybe he is lying or joking or a meanie for not updating the thread, but it's also possible that his top priority isn't making sure you feel fulfilled in knowing what's going on with his mandolin, or that he simply doesn't have the information yet and doesn't want to log it to say, "I have nothing to say yet".

Personally, I hope to hear, but I'll give the guy a break instead of defaulting to "glass half empty".

[Darryl Wolfe]

131426
Darryl, I might be mistaken, but don't those string post bushings look somewhat larger than the typical Loar period bushings?

Henry..I see the subtlety you are seeing. Maybe. But I can't convince myself positively. It could be light shining inside the bushing

[Bernie Daniel]

...Personally, I hope to hear, but I'll give the guy a break instead of defaulting to "glass half empty".

Ha ha well time will tell --but it has been my life's observation that a glass half full and a glass half empty have the same amount of beer.............

[Jeff Mando]

131426

Henry..I see the subtlety you are seeing. Maybe. But I can't convince myself positively. It could be light shining inside the bushing

OR, sometime in the last 90 years, the bushings were changed. No high crime. Maybe he lost one and replaced them all with matching ones?

[BradKlein]

I do sense a lack of perspective in this thread. Remember, this is a non-musician who is not part of the culture of the Cafe. A stranger who just 'dropped in'. I like all things Loar much more than the next guy (unless the next guy is Darryl Wolfe) but think that keeping the tone down to earth and inviting to the OP is worthwhile.

Also, this is just one of hundreds of similar mandolins, and one of many thousands of similarly valuable musical instruments, most of which are in regular use by amateurs and pros around the world. If you've ever been to the symphony, you've likely seen millions of dollars in musical instruments on stage, and their owners get in their cars or on the subway and go home like everyone else. It's not the Hope Diamond.

[Tobin]

Well...there is the fact that he came here to ask for advice.

It could very well come down to the fact that now he knows what it is and what its potential value is, he feels it prudent to stop talking about it on the worldwide web. There's a lot of risk involved in broadcasting to all the criminals in the world that you just discovered a valuable item. He has been careful so far not to release any personal information other than his general location, but that doesn't mean much in this day and age of cyber-crimes and the technological abilities of criminals who can find anybody via their net presence. We mandolin enthusiasts tend to be passe about discussing our valuable instruments, but to someone who is not accustomed to it, it can be intimidating discussing these things to a bunch of strangers. Especially if he's had people messaging him on the side offering to buy it or meet with him.

The prudent thing to do is probably to shut up and trust no one, as much as I hate to say it...

[Bernie Daniel]

I do sense a lack of perspective in this thread. Remember, this is a non-musician who is not part of the culture of the Cafe. A stranger who just 'dropped in'. I like all things Loar much more than the next guy (unless the next guy is Darryl Wolfe) but think that keeping the tone down to earth and inviting to the OP is worthwhile.

Also, this is just one of hundreds of similar mandolins, and one of many thousands of similarly valuable musical instruments, most of which are in regular use by amateurs and pros around the world. If you've ever been to the symphony, you've likely seen millions of dollars in musical instruments on stage, and their owners get in their cars or on the subway and go home like everyone else. It's not the Hope Diamond.

I hear what you are saying --but on other hand if you wanted to pull off a big prank you would not sign in as Mike Marshall or Darryl Wolfe for example. :)

I admit it could be 100% legit -- or maybe not too?

[Jeff Mando]

Especially if he's had people messaging him on the side offering to buy it or meet with him.

The prudent thing to do is probably to shut up and trust no one, as much as I hate to say it...

While we at the forum are a polite bunch, I know several vintage guitar dealers who bring new meaning to the word aggressive when in pursuit of a valuable instrument. It can be scary to witness in person....

[FLATROCK HILL]

Did you happen to notice all the scratchs on the treble side under the pick guard? Why you'd almost think some bluegrasser took the pick guard off because, obviously, it killed the sound when he chopped away on it......

Yes, it does look like Grammpa (someone?) played it pretty aggressively without the pickguard on it.
All that really proves on a strictly factual level is that it was fully awake before it went down for its long nap.;)

[Bernie Daniel]

While we at the forum are a polite bunch, I know several vintage guitar dealers who bring new meaning to the word aggressive when in pursuit of a valuable instrument. It can be scary to witness in person....

Sounds like makings of a good story --the names could be changed to protect the culprits! :))

[mefoolonhill]

Here's what you get when doing a Google image search for Lloyd Loar. Lots of entertaining photos. BTW, I have a great big old library edition dictionary that is about 10 inches thick and weighs 20 pounds. Guess who is listed in the credits as consulting acoustic engineer-- Lloyd hisself...!

https://www.google.com/search?q=lloyd+loar&safe=off&biw=1140&bih=684&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=e-35VM6bKJCYyASRi4LACQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&dpr=2

[Jeff Mando]

Sounds like makings of a good story --the names could be changed to protect the culprits! :))

Let's say you have a waiting list of Loar buyer's at $225K, one comes up for sale through an individual, you get on a plane with a briefcase full of cash--your goal is to offer as little as it takes to get it--$100K would get most people's attention and you get to make $125K for your day's work. Let's say they play "hardball" and you have to pay $150K--you still make $75K. I've seen some of these "negotiations", they can be brutal. Picture a rude version of Donald Trump.....

I should add, there is nothing illegal with being a "good" negotiator. It just takes a certain personality.

[George R. Lane]

I just sent him a PM and asked for an update. We will what happens next.

[Paul Kotapish]

Thank you so much for your help. ... I guess I have a trip to take now> I will update here when i get a chance to have them check it out.


Thank you sir for your time and interest.

Sheesh. Folks sure get cranky around here in a big hurry.

The OP's initial post on Monday was met with a large dose of skepticism and near accusations of fraud. When he seemed to have the goods to back up his tale, suddenly everyone wants him to provide minute-by-minute news coverage.

A few days go by and folks are complaining that he hasn't checked back in and provided that complete revelation on his little mystery.

It's just an old mandolin, folks. An important instrument to us, perhaps, but not necessarily grounds for dropping out of work and focusing exclusively on what had been a dust collector as recently as last weekend.

The OP thanked the forum and its members in several posts and said he would check back in after he had a chance to take the instrument to Gryphon or one of the other recommended shops for an evaluation. For someone in southern California, a trip to Gryphon in Palo Alto is about a five or six hour drive. I don't know about you, but just making the necessary phone calls and planning for that kind of jaunt is something that might take me a week or two to manage--regardless of what great conundrum was burning a whole in my imagination.

[terzinator]

It's possible, too, that if it turned out to be authentic, GG sought legal advice on his way back from the appraisal. (Or it was offered there, or whatever.)

That advice might have included the notion of not immediately declaring on the internet that you own a mandolin that you now know is worth six figures. (Or to wait a bit until the insurance is up to date, or to wait until a more secure location is found for the instrument, or something.)

Granted, it's an anonymous forum, but still.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

Honestly, if I happened upon a Loar, I'd stay mum for awhile after I found out the value (in the event I wasn't aware of what they were). Even if I found one now, knowing what they are, I'd still stay mum for awhile. I'd talk to a very few experts privately, and have it looked at by their recommended local techs etc. It would be a long stressful process deciding what to do with it, and until I did decide, having the opinion of dozens of online commentators wouldn't lower my anxiety level.

[Eric C.]

I wouldn't think twice about selling it. That's life-changing money for me.

[fatt-dad]

yeah, if I found a Loar at a garage sale for $150 bucks I wouldn't tell this forum!

I am also surprised that the early part of the thread claimed him a troll and when the goods were verified folks are not considering the OP inconsiderate.

Wow! Tough audience.

I just think this a cool story! I got my grandpa's ring though and that makes me happy!

f-d

[terzinator]

I got my grandpa's ring though and that makes me happy!
I got my grandpa's bad knees. If they were worth five bucks I'd sell them.

[Mark Wilson]

TBH, up until he posted pictures I thought he had set the reel drag light with line to spare.

Posting here without a spec of research is hard to fathom but I guess it happens.

Seriously cool story if legit!

[Glassweb]

If I may be so bold to say it... way back towards the beginning of this post I gave a good deal of pertinent info to the OP... including the first acknowledgement that he had a genuine Lloyd Loar F5 mandolin. As someone who's owned 8 Loars over the years and played close to 75 I felt qualified in doing so. The OP DID, in fact, thank me for my advice and was very gracious in doing so. You can see his post following mine... I believe on page 2 of this thread. So my feeling is he doesn't owe us a thing. Frankly, with all the doubting, accusatory, crazy, off-track posts (yeah, don't worry... I'm guilty of plenty of those over the years!) that have been put on here since the get-go I imagine he's had quite enough of us. Sorry folks, don't hold your breath for a follow up.

[sgarrity]

The OP got what he wanted, verification of what he had and who to take it to in CA. I imagine this will be sold through those contacts or maybe the Loar owner/collector network. I'm sure there's been plenty of activity going on behind the scenes too. It will be interesting to see if and when it resurfaces.
Best wishes to him and his newfound pocket change! :mandosmiley:

[Timbofood]

I agree Shaun, he's entitled to keep his privacy or tell folks here as he sees fit. I think he's probably pretty sure we are about as interested as can be and would all love to hear but, it's up to him.
I hope he enjoys whatever he does with either it or it's proceeds.
With over 31,000 views, he knows a LOT of folks are watching too!

[OldGus]

Some things don't change...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bw9RE_ruMk.

[Jeff Mando]

yeah, if I found a Loar at a garage sale for $150 bucks I wouldn't tell this forum!

I am also surprised that the early part of the thread claimed him a troll and when the goods were verified folks are not considering the OP inconsiderate.

Wow! Tough audience.

I just think this a cool story! I got my grandpa's ring though and that makes me happy!

f-d

I agree, great thread! Certainly has that, "What would you do if you won the lottery or found a genie in a bottle" quality about it. Who knows, he might have found it at a garage sale and made up the Grandfather story to add credibility....hard to say. Might be stolen, also....I don't know if I would be giving out serial numbers over the internet, if it were me....(I know he is asking for assistance, so...) Like f-d says, tough audience!

[Hendrik Ahrend]

OR, sometime in the last 90 years, the bushings were changed. No high crime. Maybe he lost one and replaced them all with matching ones?

Certainly possible, and of course there might have been variations at Gibson anyway. Though typically, the Loars (and other F5s) sold in the later '20s have different hardware.
Loar F5 #75945131436
Post Loar F5 #82369131437

BTW same flower pot/script pattern as on the new find.

[re simmers]

Maybe George Gruhn is the gracious grandson. He got himself this mandolin and thought he would drum up some interest. I don't know Mr. Gruhn at all.....does he have a dry, practical joker sense of humor?

Bob

[Willie Poole]

Anyone on here know those two appraisers in Cal. well enough that they could supply some info after (if it in fact gets to them) as to what it really is? I know Roger Siminoff posts on here from time to time so maybe we will hear some more about it in time...

Willie

[Gary Leonard]

Maybe [NAME] is the gracious grandson. He got himself this mandolin and thought he would drum up some interest. I don't know Mr. [NAME] at all.....does he have a dry, practical joker sense of humor?

Bob

Not at all implying that anyone named above is doing this. But an equally plausible reason could be someone with an agenda to distract attention from another mandolin perhaps?


Anyone on here know those two appraisers in Cal. well enough that they could supply some info after (if it in fact gets to them) as to what it really is? I know Roger Siminoff posts on here from time to time so maybe we will hear some more about it in time...

Willie

I would doubt that anyone involved in any such appraisal would release such information, unless specifically directed by the owner. This thread has lots of good reasons why the "owner" would not want to release such information. I would love to see a response by the OP though, rooting for him, and hope it is a real find. Without a doubt, the pictures of presented are of a lovely instrument.

I was wondering, is it possible to do a little bit of forensic work on what was posted here? I took a look at the saved pictures and didn't see any extra EXIF data, which would probably be the case when the forum software uploads/processes them. Would any of the original information in the picture remain upon upload, like when the pictures were taken, and by what type of camera/phone?

[Timbofood]

Willie, I would be surprised to find that kind of information disclosed by Roger or, any appraiser for that matter, that kind of information is generally considered confidential until the owner releases it. It isn't in the appraisers interest to spill the beans. That all falls by the ways once the owner let it out.
I could be wrong but, I would be pretty mad if someone did that about something of mine, wouldn't you?

[lenf12]

Willie, I would be surprised to find that kind of information disclosed by Roger or, any appraiser for that matter

Yeah Willie, the appraiser has most likely something in the contract binding his/her confidentiality kept in force until long after the final "disposal" of this mandolin. I certainly would....

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Ivan Kelsall]

I don't think that we're all being too impatient,we're simply wanting to know what's going on. A simple message to up-date us, such as - '' I've made contact with (whoever) for a valuation........' is all we'd need. It's not an everyday occurence that a Loar turns up in somebody's home,so it's little wonder that we're all wanting to know the latest news,
Ivan

[Timbofood]

One thing that is sometimes forgotten around here is, that most of "us" sometimes forget, that there are people out there in the "real" world who are not as mandolin driven as we are. I know, sad but, true. And GG may have other things going on in his work week which have not allowed him to drop everything and go instantly running off to get an appraisal. After all it has not been a week since this came to light. I think his thanks for giving him a little direction on Monday is sufficient until he has a little time to find out the whole scoop. While it's very exciting to us mandolin nuts, he has to deal with family, a job, and who knows what else in his normal week.
We need to be patient, like Ron in Thailand, his newfound mandolin is going to need time to be put right so, he must be patient. GG will inform us as to his findings when he is ready. I know, it would be pretty hard for me to not drop everything and go dashing off to see Stan Werbin at Elderly of this fell in my lap but, I am not encumbered by a job right now. It will all come to light soon enough.

[Michael Bridges]

Bottom line is, GG came here for advice on his heirloom find. He got that, along with a fair amount of skepticism, and some derision, because he didn't go about it in a way that satisfied some folks here. As interested as we all are in this thread, he is in no way obligated to divulge anything more. Really it's now a personal family matter as to what he finds, and what he decides to do. I wish him the best in whichever way it goes for him

[Dale Ludewig]

I agree with that. Everything posted on this site is voluntary. One posts something perhaps with hope that an answer to a question will be given, that a questioner will be given help, or experience shared about some topic. There is no obligation on anyone to do anything other than to be hopefully civil and helpful and, on occasion, humorous. I doubt that anyone reading this thread would like to be the subject of so much public speculation as has been present here. Speculation about the instrument is great and interesting. Speculation about the person is another thing. MHO.

[DataNick]

I was one of the initial "responders" to GG's inquiry and after he posted pictures was "shocked" happily by what I saw. It will all come out in the wash on Roadshow Antiques or a new Loar posting at Carter's or Gruhn's etc. or maybe not as it might get maneuvered through the Loar owner back channels. I think the exciting result of the whole episode is that there are still more undocumented mandolins out there. We'll find out eventually what happened with this one, so no need to sweat it!

Good on GG and his life fortunes taking an apparent upward turn!

[mandolino maximus]

A video of it being played would be super generous and greatly appreciated. No expectation and not deserved. Just a great way to share with those who can appreciate the find. Take your time. We can wait.

[barney 59]

Most of the dealers I know have the internet up all day scanning ebay craigslist and other sites. News of something like this travels fast in those circles and I wouldn't be a bit surprised that there have been PM's from some dealers or collectors who are helping him verify what he has and maybe even making offers as we speak! If you have something that good you wouldn't need to pack up and travel to some distant dealer, they'll come to you! I'd bet if you polled the dealers and high profile collectors a large percentage have already heard about this mandolin! If the OP, who now knows what it is that he has, made a few calls there is a good chance that the person he called hopped the next flight! Assuming that this is all legit this mandolin will resurface pretty soon and we'll all know the story whether or not we ever hear from the originator of this thread!

[Jeff Mando]

Most of the dealers I know have the internet up all day scanning ebay craigslist and other sites. News of something like this travels fast in those circles and I wouldn't be a bit surprised that there have been PM's from some dealers or collectors who are helping him verify what he has and maybe even making offers as we speak! If you have something that good you wouldn't need to pack up and travel to some distant dealer, they'll come to you! I'd bet if you polled the dealers and high profile collectors a large percentage have already heard about this mandolin! If the OP, who now knows what it is that he has, made a few calls there is a good chance that the person he called hopped the next flight! Assuming that this is all legit this mandolin will resurface pretty soon and we'll all know the story whether or not we ever hear from the originator of this thread!

Good point. If you are just interested in selling, you don't need a written appraisal, if the person interested in buying already knows what it is.

I do it all the time (on a much smaller scale), "hey, would you take $100 for that?"

[barney 59]

It was a smart or lucky move on the OP's part coming here. What he got was "Whoa Pal,you have a really valuable thing there!"
I never have had someone walk up and set a pot of gold in front of me and ask me what I thought it was worth. I do wonder what I would do if it happened though---you know, honesty and integrity vs a life changing potential profit. I know someone that did have that happen. A man walked into his shop with a Martin 1930 OM that has since been referred to as the "best one ever". The shop owner recognized it for what it was and and knew it was out of his league. He arranged for the owner of the instrument and a dealer in fine instruments to connect. That guitar is now kicking around in the plus $200,000 guitar circles. The guy said to me that there was no doubt that he could have gotten that guitar for around $10k and the seller would have been happy as a clam! Like I said..I wonder how I would do in that situation?

[Bernie Daniel]

I agree with that. Everything posted on this site is voluntary. One posts something perhaps with hope that an answer to a question will be given, that a questioner will be given help, or experience shared about some topic. There is no obligation on anyone to do anything other than to be hopefully civil and helpful and, on occasion, humorous. I doubt that anyone reading this thread would like to be the subject of so much public speculation as has been present here. Speculation about the instrument is great and interesting. Speculation about the person is another thing. MHO.


Sure and definitely it is the OP's call on what he wants to reveal, and to whom, and on his time table. Of course.

He came to the Mandolin Cafe for advice/help and he got it. He thanked the community and that is good too.

But everyone here has their right to opinions too. As well as the right to be as skeptical about the photos or the story and to express their wish for more information.

This is an internet forum.................

[Jeff Mando]

It was a smart or lucky move on the OP's part coming here. What he got was "Whoa Pal,you have a really valuable thing there!"
I never have had someone walk up and set a pot of gold in front of me and ask me what I thought it was worth. I do wonder what I would do if it happened though---you know, honesty and integrity vs a life changing potential profit. I know someone that did have that happen. A man walked into his shop with a Martin 1930 OM that has since been referred to as the "best one ever". The shop owner recognized it for what it was and and knew it was out of his league. He arranged for the owner of the instrument and a dealer in fine instruments to connect. That guitar is now kicking around in the plus $200,000 guitar circles. The guy said to me that there was no doubt that he could have gotten that guitar for around $10k and the seller would have been happy as a clam! Like I said..I wonder how I would do in that situation?

Most of us don't have to deal with that dilemma very often. People who deal in big league instruments usually have their reputation to protect, which might be important to future business. On the other hand, when an offer is made, the seller has the right to say "no" and do further research, which is pretty easy these days, thanks to internet, MC, etc.

However, sometimes getting top money isn't all that quick of a process. A few years ago 60 minutes or one of those type shows, had a piece about a retired guy who bought a painting at a yard sale for $60, turns out it was by one of the old masters and he was able to consign it with one of the large auction houses and it sold for $2 million dollars. The process took over two years and the auction house took a huge percentage, so you don't get paid right away--UNLESS--you take a lower cash offer. Kind of like JG Wentworth.....

[f5loar]

Was the Antiques Roadshow 1924 Fern the last one to come out of a "closet" ? Has anyone heard of how that one turned out? Did the family end up selling? Or did they run and hide? Was there not talk that it was a stolen one with that serial no? Bushings could be newer as it does appears this one got a lot of play time before being retired. I've seen those little bushing fall out when changing strings. Not everyone does them one at a time. Just another mystery about this one.

[G. Fisher]

It's been a month since anything has been posted about this mandolin.

So, has anyone in California heard anything about a Loar being brought into any of the shops mentioned?

[Jeff Mando]

probably sold it and living in a tropical paradise..........................

[terzinator]

probably sold it and living in a tropical paradise..........................

Can't be. I'm sure there would have been a "New Mandolin Day!" thread from someone.

[DataNick]

Can't be. I'm sure there would have been a "New Mandolin Day!" thread from someone.

+1...$170-$200K gets you a fixer-upper around these parts...barely a drop in the bucket, much less a tropical paradise!

[Jeff Mando]

I guess I've been in Mississippi too long! Around here if you make 50K a year, you're a one percenter......

[sgarrity]

In LA $500,000 gets you a fixer-upper! Nothing is cheap in California except for the wine, which explains why I'm still here.....LOL

[BradKlein]

♪♫♪ I'm praying, for rain in California… ♫♪

[Capt. E]

In LA $500,000 gets you a fixer-upper! Nothing is cheap in California except for the wine, which explains why I'm still here.....LOL

500K buys a REALLY NICE house in a GREAT neighborhood here in Austin. That's one reason why all these companies are moving from Calif. go from a tiny two bedroom one bath bungalow to a 3500 sq/ft 5 br 4 bath 21st century modern.

[Willie Poole]

Sell that $300,000 home and move to Florida and buy a manufactured home in a gated development and have enough left to last you for the rest of your life...You just have to put up with all of the traffic around Disney parks....

[Jeff Mando]

I was thinking of the Vietnam vets and hippies who moved to Puerto Rico or Mexico and lived in a hut on the beach for about $100 a month..........drinking rum and surfing all day long.....don't know if it is still possible, but in the 70's & 80's, it was.....

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

I was thinking of the Vietnam vets and hippies who moved to Puerto Rico or Mexico and lived in a hut on the beach for about $100 a month..........drinking rum and surfing all day long.....don't know if it is still possible, but in the 70's & 80's, it was.....

That's what I was thinking too.. Sure 200K won't buy you much in Southern CA but it may just last a really, really long time in some remote island in the Pacific somewhere...

[multidon]

I think at this point, it is fair to say this thread has taken a major detour.

More than a major detour. More like crashed through the guardrail and took a dive over the bridge.

[Perry Babasin]

I think we're all hoping for Grateful Grandson to come back and talk to us, or show up on Pawn Stars, American Pickers or Antiques Roadshow!!

[Bill Bradshaw]

I think at this point, it is fair to say this thread has taken a major detour.

More than a major detour. More like crashed through the guardrail and took a dive over the bridge.

Hah hah, ya think?! Just to stay on track though. 500k won't buy ya nothin around here, no jobs, hardly any people, and the winters are cold. Lots of way better places to spend the proceeds from a Loar.

Cheers,

Bill

[Ken Waltham]

Well, I would loved to have had that F5!
Just saying'.....

[lenf12]

Well, I would loved to have had that F5!
Just saying'.....

But how long would it have lasted in your collection Ken?? I think you have already found your holy grail.....:whistling: Just sayin'

Len B.

[Ken Waltham]

But how long would it have lasted in your collection Ken?? I think you have already found your holy grail.....:whistling: Just sayin'

Len B.
Hhhmm.. well, I have to be clear on one thing. I don't collect. If I am not playing them, I sell them. I just can't quite get used to just having "stuff". I was never raised that way, and it makes me feel a bit guilty.

[lenf12]

Hhhmm.. well, I have to be clear on one thing. I don't collect. If I am not playing them, I sell them. I just can't quite get used to just having "stuff". I was never raised that way, and it makes me feel a bit guilty.

I can help you assuage any guilty feelings you may have Ken. The mandolins you've sold over the years have been truly drool worthy and would be the "star" of anybody's collection. A certain 20's F-4 and a Flatiron F-5 come to mind iirc.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[TEvans]

Well, I checked back to see if the OP ever came back and told us what he found out.

Turns out I just found a discussion on real estate and property values. hahah!

[Jeff Mando]

We can always discuss the merits of Blue Chip picks, while we are waiting for the OP to return.....

[Canoedad]

Now we're just trolling ourselves

[Timbofood]

Fish on!

[Jeff Mando]

Sounds like a long shot, but EVERYTIME I walk into a pawn shop or even a yard sale, there is a brief moment of excitement thinking "this might be the day" when I find that Loar, D-45, Les Paul, Resonator, etc. And this is after 45+ years of hunting. I know the odds of winning the lottery are probably better, but I still get that little tingle, which quickly goes away when I realize I'm looking at used DVD's and baby clothes....

[Timbofood]

Jeff, I think we have shared the same cup! I always think I will"find the grail" then I have my hands in the dishwater!:))