Reverse Tuners

[Hal Loflin]

OK....The dumb question of the week...i just gotta know. i recently purchased a new Eastman 615 and was suprised to find that the D and G string tuners are the opposite to my Weber (Clockwise to tune up instead of Counter Clockwise). Why are some tuners this way and most others counter clockwise for the D and G strings? No big deal and no problem tuning but I JUST GOTTA KNOW...

[mandroid]

St. LLoyd said let it be so...? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif rightie tightie leftie loosie was always the normal way to my mind. saved on stripped bolts often.

[uncle ken]

If the worm is on top, you want reverse thread to tune the standard way, the worm pushes the top of the spur as you turn clockwise. If the worm is on the bottom you want a forward thread.

[mandroid]

Old A4 and newer F5 worm below on both, one goes CC the other CW,
what I want and how it is , are 2 different things, specially now.

[Sheryl McDonald]

If the worm is on top, you want reverse thread to tune the standard way, the worm pushes the top of the spur as you turn clockwise. If the worm is on the bottom you want a forward thread.
What's a worm? Inquiring minds want to KNOW!

[uncle ken]

The worm is the screw thread that is at the end of your tuning key shaft, the spur is the gear attached to the bottom of the string post.

[James P]

My 615 came set up so that a clockwise turn sharpens the note. Just the opposite of the way I've always seen guitars and mandos strung. Maybe there's somebody at the setup shop who thinks it oughta be done that way, but I'm gonna change it when I change strings.

[Hal Loflin]

James P....How do you change them?

[acousticphd]

But I've never heard tell of tuner gearings on the left and right plates that worked oppositely on the same mandolin - meaning from the point of view of the left/tuning adjusting hand. Is this what you have, smyrnagc ?? That sounds like a mistake.

[James P]

I wrap the string around opposite side of the tuner post. Or is this a trick question? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[mpeknox]

My 615 came set up so that a clockwise turn sharpens the note. #Just the opposite of the way I've always seen guitars and mandos strung. #Maybe there's somebody at the setup shop who thinks it oughta be done that way, but I'm gonna change it when I change strings.
Uhh, I don't think that's something you can change unless you put a different set of tuners on. If you wrap the string the other way it's gonna rub on the post below it.

[Hal Loflin]

No trick questions....Every mandolin that I have had, and I have bought and sold a dozen, had the D and G tuners that when you turned them to the left(counter clockwise) the pitch increased/sharpened. My new 615 is the opposite...must be turned clockwise to raise the tone. I thought maybe it was a mistake but had never heard of this before.

[James P]

My "doh." I had to get it out to see what you were talking about...
Please forgive my mando-noobishness.
Is there a cure for this condition? (the tuner orientation not the noobitude!)

[Paul Hostetter]

Get gears that were engineered properly. Sell the old ones on eBay to some hapless, unsuspecting soul.

[Hal Loflin]

So Paul....Does your response mean that what i have is incorrect from the factory?

[Hal Loflin]

Probably should have mentioned that these are Schaller tuners...

[Darryl Wolfe]

If the worm is on top, you want reverse thread to tune the standard way
This above statement is incorrect or misleading. #If the worm is on top and the knobs turn in the proper direction to tune the instrument, this is referred to as Modern Tuners.

On early Gibsons (pre-1927~, the worm is on the bottom and is cut "reverse" to turn/tune in the correct manner.

I will admit that it's hard to call the old style "reverse" when they came first, but this is the accepted terminology. #If the tuners in question by the originator of this thread have the worm on top and they turn the wrong way, then the tuners are reverse cut machines engineered for the worm to be on the botton in the old style. #If the worm is on the bottom, and they turn in the wrong direction, then they are non-reverse, Modern tuners installed upside down. #Tuners are now available for either application. #All you have to do is choose them correctly

[Hal Loflin]

f5journal: the "worm) gears are on the bottom on all of the tuners. The E & A tuners tune up clockwise as do the D & G...All 8 turn the same direction. If this is standard, or customary from Eastman I am ok with it. It is no problem I am just wondering if I have a mandolin that was completed improperly at the factory

[uncle ken]

Schaller will let you specify forward or reverse threads when you order and I believe they are referring to the direction of the thread itself, as if you were ordering machine screws. I was able to get a set of reverse thread ones so that my F5 with worm on top would work properly.

[Paul Hostetter]

I'm surprised they are Schaller gears. If your D and G string tuners turn the opposite to the usual, IOW, clockwise to tune up instead of counterclockwise, something is wrong. Whether the button shaft and worm are above or below the cog, new or old style, the button should turn counterclockwise to raise the pitch of the D and G strings. Your instincts are correct, and the gears I think are wrong.

[Flowerpot]

I tried an Eastman 615 recently at a local store, and that was the first thing I noticed when I started tuning it up. "These gears are reversed," I thought to myself, and said aloud to nobody in particular. Maybe they are all that way.

[Paul Hostetter]

The Eastman guitars I have played (still haven't laid hands on a mandolin) had gears that looked like Klusons but were distinctly Chinese knockoffs. I suspect something like that with the gears on the mandolin.

[mpeknox]

My Eastman 605 has "reverse" Schaller tuners.

[Dan Adams]

My Fisch has reverse tuners. Thought it was a Czech thing. Took awhile to get used to since my other mandos have 'modern' tuners. Even my old Gibsons.

Now I just tune in a mirror! Dan

[JeffS]

Don't early model Gibson's have reverse geared tuners?

[James P]

I think this is a case of reverse engineering gone horribly right. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

Most early model anything had reversed tuners. Around 1925 or so (I forget the exact year) manufacturers came to their senses about how gears worked how much better they worked with the worm above the cog. There was a sort of industry-wide pact: the manufacturers of guitars and so on asked for the reconfigured gears, the manufacturers of the gears acceded to the request, and gears went the other way ever after - except F-type mandolins, which had that splayed headstock.

You can find F gears laid out both ways (the cheaper Gotohs and some others come both ways). No one makes guitar or A-type mandolin gears any other way the rightside-up now. It's possible to lay out the headstock so the gears look right either way, but you know that headstocks that were laid out the old way look odd with replaced modern rightside-up gears sticking out higher up the headstock.

[mandroid]

Now Im confused too..
old 22 A/A4 CC gear combo gibson original stuff.
01 schaller equipped F5 CW gear.
A &E seem backwards #backwards because thryre on the other #side of the headstock.
When the stud that holds the exhaust manifold on [V8 motor analogy] points down; the way the Nut has to turn to remove it remains the same, it only seems backwards.
Same applys to spoke nuts/nipples on #building and truing bicycle wheels , all depends on your perspective.

either one works just fine,so I just cope, somehow.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[mpeknox]

sheesh...now I'm all confused. #I normally turn the key in whichever direction gives me the desired result. #If the note gets sharper when I turn it and I would rather it was getting flatter, I immediately change the direction of rotation. #If that doesn't work, I just quit trying and post stuff on the Cafe.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Let's start over. #As the original poster said the D and G string seem to turn backwards. #Clockwise instead of counter-clockwise. #He is correct this is backwards. #He later replied that the worms were on the bottom. #This means that he has a non-reverse set of modern tuners that have been assembled in the reverse fashion (worm on bottom when looking at the longest shafted knob handle). #This is exactly what Gibson did on the original F5L. #Reverse tuners were not available, so they custom assembled tuners for the Loar style look. The pegheads were drilled in the Loars style reverse position (like this Eastman).

Why Eastman did this when tuners are available, ??. #But if the poster wants it to turn in the normal way, it just needs a new set of Schaller or Grover tuners that are "reverse cut". There really is no other solution.

[Hal Loflin]

Thanks Daryl...I was just curious to see if Eastman had installed them incorrectly form the factory and now I see that Eastman is doing this on all of their 615's. I have no problem with this and will not change them just to change the direction that they tune. I have had aat least 10 mandolins in the past and this is the first time that I have run into this. This is what I love about Mandolin Cafe....One can learn anything you want to know from knowledgable musicians/luthiers just by asking. THis has been a learning experience for me and I appreciate all of the postings.

[Sheryl McDonald]

I tried an Eastman 615 recently at a local store, and that was the first thing I noticed when I started tuning it up. "These gears are reversed," I thought to myself, and said aloud to nobody in particular. Maybe they are all that way.
I tried one too.... having the tuners like that really seemed backwards, but since then, I purchased a 1920's American Conservatory, and darned if they aren't the same way.

My mando playing friend was convinced the two tuner units were swapped and put on upside down.

I guess I can learn!

[newt51]

I recently purchased an Eastman 605 A style from Gianna Violins and the first thing I noticed when I took it out of the box was the "reverse" action on the G and D tuners. They are quality Schaller tuners and they work well, but it is the first time I've encountered this, invariably I will loosen the G or D string when I first start tuning. I too also have a Weber which has the "standard" turning tuners. I love both my mandos, but it is puzzling why the Eastman's tuners are different. Maybe Steve (I've seen him on other boards here) from Gianna Violins can answer this question since he seems to be the biggest dealer of Eastman mandos.

[Steve Stahl]

I purchased Schaller tuners from Stew-Mac for my first mandolin. As stated in their catalog, the shafts are positioned below the string posts in the original style, but the gears are reverse cut so that the knobs turn in the familiar modern manner. I bought my next batch of Schaller tuners from Euphonon, and these work "backwards." Evidently both types are available from Schaller and the tuners on your Eastman have the "non-reverse" gears. Are they only backwards on the D and G strings, or the A and E as well? I think mine work "backwards" on all of the strings.

[Jim Hilburn]

If anything is backwards, everything is backwards.

[Jim Hilburn]

Unless you make one with one of each. That would mess with someone's mind.

[Billiam]

My Fisch has reverse tuners. #Thought it was a Czech thing. #Took awhile to get used to since my other mandos have 'modern' tuners. #Even my old Gibsons.

Now I just tune in a mirror! #Dan
Thus the answer to the age old question, just how do you tuna Fisch?

I feel much better having gotten that out of my system. I'll go sit quietly in the back row now...

[uncle ken]

What makes this even more confusing is the fact that what they are refering to as "reverse cut" is actually a right hand pitch on the gears which is what most would consider a forward thread (bores inward as you turn it clockwise).