A Tale of Two Music Stores

[banjoboy]

I feel compelled to write about recent experiences I had with two music store (whose names will not be revealed). My friends and I went into the first store. Great store with lots of great inventory, especially high end mandos. One of my friends plays a Gil and was interested in purchasing another mando. He was especially interested in trying out an Ellis. My friends, who are all accomplished players, began to try out the various mandolins. While this was happening, one of the sales people kept hovering at the door, kind of giving us the feeling like he didn't trust us, or like we were going to steal something. I told him about my friend and how he was interested in possibly buying a new instrument, and that this was a great opportunity to try out not only the Ellis, but several other mandos that are considered to be great instruments as well. The salesperson said that he was concerned that the mandos might get damaged as they were high end instruments. Let me explain that we are not kids, were well dressed, and as I said before, it was obvious that my friends knew their way around an instrument. The salesperson continued to make us feel unwelcome.

Then we visited the second store, Another great store, but not as great an inventory as far as mandos. However, they did pull out a couple really fine mandos, including a Loar era mandola, which they let us play without making us feel like "America's Most Wanted". We hung out in that store for quite some time, trying out guitars, mandos, and banjos. It was a good experience.

I certainly understand wanting to make sure that high end instruments are handled properly and not damaged, but these instruments were out, hanging on the wall. There were no signs, that I could see, asking that permission be given to play them. I just wish our experience at the first store could have been a little better.

[terzinator]

in the first store, was it the manager/owner, or just a sales person? If the latter, I'd maybe have asked to talk to the manager/owner, and see what the official policy is with customers playing instruments. Or maybe after the fact, write them a note. Not to get the salesperson in trouble, but to let them know it certainly was a turn-off, and that it may have killed a potential sale. (If that was the case.)

I do hate it when I go to a shop and all the instruments have grimy strings and shopwear from careless customers, so I get it. The shop wants to keep its inventory as minty fresh as possible. Some shops probably get tired of kids coming in and slashing away on stuff, and then leaving with no intention of buying anything. I always try to buy a pack of strings, at least, for the privilege of testing out instruments.

But I also feel like a good salesperson should be able to discern the credibility or seriousness of its customers, and let them peruse the inventory without them feeling guilty or under constant suspicion.

[Amanda Gregg]

Stores have cultures, it's true. I know I look about five years old, so I try to dress up and have a clear idea of what I'm looking for (esp. budget) when I check out a new place. Anything to look serious. Sometimes there's nothing I can do. Sometimes I don't even have to try. I had a great experience at Mandolin Brothers a few years ago, for example, despite looking like a schlub at the time.

I get that some places have to manage their anxiety about new customers. I think it's a hard calculation, though. How do you know by sight, or even by playing ability, who is a serious buyer? In our age of social media, what if you alienate an influential and wealthy collector?

[F-2 Dave]

It could have been an over cautious sales person. I wouldn't write off store number one just yet. I tend to give brick and mortar stores a lot of leeway in these situations. They're becoming an endangered species.

[Brandon Flynn]

I've had the same experience at a few famous stores that I won't name. I will say I've had fantastic experiences at Fiddler's Green, once they see I know how to play, they leave me alone unless I have questions. And I think it's fairly obvious I'm not there to buy!

[Timbofood]

Could have been a bad day for the first place, cut them a little slack, try them another day. I am pretty lucky, if I get the itch, I can cruise to Elderly and have a fun afternoon, not everyone has that privelige. I have certainly been in the same boat as the first store though.

[SincereCorgi]

I would give the first store a second chance, but, man, I very much sympathize. There are two excellent stringed instrument shops in my area, one of which I never anticipate visiting again due to the repeated condescending attitude from the counter staff.

I do think that most instruments north of $2000 or so should probably be behind glass or a rope with a polite 'please ask permission' sign. Even teensy dings and scratches will make instruments unsellable to certain kinds of collectors.

[Randy Smith]

My friends and I went into the first store. Great store with lots of great inventory, especially high end mandos. One of my friends plays a Gil and was interested in purchasing another mando. . . . My friends, who are all accomplished players, began to try out the various mandolins.

Possibly in the first store the salesperson felt three or more people in one group looked too much like a scene from *The Wild Bunch*. I'm not defending him, just wondering if he'd deal with one person differently. Cleary the second store you visited had no problem.

[Austin Bob]

While this was happening, one of the sales people kept hovering at the door, kind of giving us the feeling like he didn't trust us, or like we were going to steal something.


WHAT he was doing is completely understandable and expected. A store has to protect their inventory or they will go out of business.

HOW he did it seems to be the issue here. Apparently his style and mannerisms made your and your friends uncomfortable and untrustworthy.

But try to understand his position. Sure, maybe one person was in the market for a new mandolin, but it sounds like there were three of four of you at once pulling down instruments from the wall and trying them out. How was he supposed to be able to instantly gauge everyone in your group? A scratch or ding in a high end instrument like an Ellis can easily be worth $500.

Let me put the shoe on the other foot: If you were selling a high end mandolin, how would you be able to instantly judge who should get to play it and who shouldn't?

I think I'm in agreement with Timbofood here. It's unfortunate that it happened and maybe the guy can use some coaching, but it would not keep me from buying there if they had the mando I wanted.

[allenhopkins]

Mandolins displayed at dealers get "shopworn." That's what happens. Really expensive mandolins probably get less shopworn than others, since they're probably not played as much.

On the other hand, while a prospective buyer may not be as compelled to test drive a <$300 Kentucky A-model, darn sure he/she will want to spend some time playing a mandolin with a five-figure price tag.

It's a trade-off from the dealer's perspective. Casual browsers, unfamiliar with mandolins and less protective of their "newness," may not be as annoyed if there's a "Please Request Assistance With This Instrument" tag on a high-end mandolin; they weren't going to buy it anyway. But discouraging a potential Ellis buyer by treating him like a potential thief or vandal, well, that could result in losing a very lucrative sale.

Biggest music store in Rochester is House Of Guitars. (http://www.houseofguitars.com) It covers three floors and an annex building, and sells everything from recordings to tour T-shirts to a wide variety of instruments, amps, drums, PA equipment, supplies, etc. etc. Every instrument of any value in the huge, chaotic store is in a locked case, and you have to get one of their (generally ill-informed, at least about anything but electric guitars) staff to open it up, get it out, and watch you play it. Yet they do a multi-million-dollar business, mostly (it seems) to teenaged "band" members with their fathers' credit cards.

So the "high security" formula works for some, I guess. I go to dealers where I'm pretty well-known, and I get to play anything on the wall, and a few "extras" from the back room that aren't on display. But were I selling high-end mandolins, I wouldn't discourage potential buyers from trying them out; there are few enough customers in that category now.

[Mickey King]

The salesperson may had that sneaking suspicion that you were a banjo player and well, everybody knows you can't trust a banjo player!

[Bren]

Mandolin Brothers (RIP Stan) welcomed me and my wife and I'd hardly got my foot through the door when they announced I could take down any instrument and try it without asking.

Seeing my wife wasn't that interested, they gave her a seat and a cup of tea and chatted away to her while I browsed.

[Amanda Gregg]

+1 on good memories of Mandolin Brothers. I made the long drive from CT one afternoon, and they treated me with such hospitality, even though I looked like a schlub.

[Astro]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with them hanging out watching and you really cant take that personally. Its only when they start talking, opinionating, politicizing, or trying a pressurized sales job that I get annoyed. I'd just state up front, "I just wanted to come in and play a few nice instruments in quiet and solitude so I can better evaluate my options". If they still bother you after that, then I'd leave.

[bigskygirl]

I think you should not be so offended, you'd better not go to a jewelry store if you don't like being watched while high dollar items are involved.

I've been in stores that made me put on an apron and had me sit down before they handed me the instrument to ones that I probably could have walked out with the instrument and they wouldn't have noticed I was gone.

It's their business and if the items involved are high end the behavior was understandable....me, if the salesperson wants to stand there while I pick thru a poor version of Red Haired Boy then that's his problem but it's not going to have an effect on whether I buy something or if I go back. If I like it or want it I'll get it.

[Timbofood]

I just don't like being watched like a hawk, which is why I simply leave those stores. I said it earlier, Elderly has an inventory as broad as any other big gun store, and a fabulous attitude about leaving folks to "find" what they want then, helping. You can start at one end of the rack and work all the way through.
Then again there are stores which may only have a few "Good" instruments and feel very protective of the inventory, I see both sides of the argument. Very happy to not feel like I need to run out and play things I can't afford! I can visit some friends and play some pretty amazing mandolins! Kind of fun to know collectors!

[Willie Poole]

I`ll change this a bit....I went into one music store and was asking the price of Flatiron f model mandolin and the salesperson said they had it on consignment then about a week later I took a mandolin in to sell on consignment and was told they don`t do business that way....The price of the Flatiron was more than I thought it should have been and that's why I believe they said it was on consignment, now me being an out spoken fellow I told them what they could do with all of their mandolins...Some time later I did visit them again and all they had for sale were low Asian budget instruments, serves them right, their repairman has changed locations and the place has gone to the dogs.....

Now back to the OP`s question... I usually ask if it is OK to play an instrument or maybe ask if their is someone working there that can play it so I can hear what it sounds like, after that they usually let me play a tune or two on it....At Baltimore Bluegrass they had 7 mandolins hanging on display and told me to play all I wanted to, yep, I bought one that night too...Even got a 40% discount if I paid cash, they are now out of business....

Willie

[Rob Zamites]

I'll echo Timbofood's narrative about Elderly - I look like a schlub, but they don't even blink when I take the $3000 Coombe mandola and have a sit and play on it, or the $3500 Nyberg 'zouk. I'm blessed to live 8 miles from there - it's the best music store I've set foot in.

[jaycat]

I'll echo Timbofood's narrative about Elderly - I look like a schlub, but they don't even blink when I take the $3000 Coombe mandola and have a sit and play on it, or the $3500 Nyberg 'zouk. I'm blessed to live 8 miles from there - it's the best music store I've set foot in.

Same deal at the Music Emporium in Lexington, Mass. No one even notices whether you are trying out a 5-figure Gibson or an el cheapo import.

I think it is a matter of trust, and trust works both ways.

Unfortunately I cannot say the same for the now-departed (and lamented, by some) small shop which shall go unnamed on Mass. Ave. in Cambridge, which was in full swing during the big Folk Scare of the 50s-60s and made damn sure you knew that 'giants of folk music' often crossed their threshold and jammed for hours there. And made sure that you felt about as small as an ant for daring to darken their doors . . .

[Steve Ostrander]

+1 for Elderly. Anything hanging on the wall is available to play. You don't even have to ask. They don't hover. Really high end instruments are available to play by appointment. I've spent many a happy hour there playing instruments I can't afford. Of course, I've bought a few over the years....

[Al Trujillo]

Well, I hate car salesmen who hover over me...but then I get angry when I can't find one to ask a question. Lots of give-and-take when dealing with those who deal with customers...and I'd hate to be in their shoes if something happens to a high priced instrument under their watch.

[zedmando]

I've been in stores where if you even look at something the wrong way, they jump all over you.
But most around here aren't like that.

I've been in stores where salesmen hand me very expensive guitars to try out--sorry, I'm not buying them, but they still try.
I've played some very expensive guitars & other instruments--sometimes badly.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I think that all music stores are caught in the middle or wanting to sell to folk who 'need' to play the instruments,& also ensuring that those instruments aren't damaged in any way that might put a buyer off buying.The stores do need to use a degree of comon sense when making any judgement re.allowing a prospective customer to play any instrument.A look at a customer's outer clothing for instance - are there any buttons,buckles or other metal objects that might harm the instrument ?. If so,either remove the offending garment or cover the metal 'whatever' up. I've used a handkerchief (''clean'' i might add !),to cover up my belt buckle. Maybe if all prospective customers wishing to play any instrument,wore suitable 'soft' clothing such as a sweater,the store owners wouldn't get so fidgety about the instruments getting marked.
I had a less than pleasing encounter shortly after i bought my Weber. A guy at a UK Bluegrass festival asked to play it.Maybe if i'd spotted the huge, fancy Western belt buckle he was sporting,i'd have asked him to cover it up. As it was,after 10 minutes or so,i got my Weber returned with a nice pattern of scratches on the back. Fortunately they were only superficial & i managed to polish them out completely,but it might have been worse,
Ivan

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Even got a 40% discount if I paid cash, they are now out of business....

I would imagine these two facts are logically related.

[bribhoy]

I live in the UK and often feel envious of the vast array of mandolin retailers that exist in the US when disucssed on this forum. However, I live not all that far from Brighton and, consequently, not all that far from an array of some of the world's finest mandos. Trevor at TAMCo is familiar to everyone on these boards and, despite my obvious shortcomings in playing ability, I have been permitted to play some wondeful instruments there. In Brighton, however, we also now have a Hobgoblin which features a nice ranfe of lower to mid-range mandolin family instruments, and they are just as welcoming. I recently found out also that GAK - Brighton's premier supplier of instruments to up and coming rock bands - have added some nice Gibsons to their acoustic room and, again, I was welcome to play the F5 they have in there.

I certainly don't look like a high roller (in my own opinioon) so I'm grateful to the music shop proprietors of Brighton for letting me lust over their stock.

[Timbofood]

Bribhoy, the vast number really isn't any greater than the resources you have, they are spread over a huge amount of square miles. I had a friend from Birmingham who, when I told him it was a fourteen hour drive to visit my parents was astounded that one could drive that long and still be in the same country! He was joking really of course but, you get the idea. There are indeed great resources in the US but, it takes time to get to them. I have never been to Gruhns, fiddlers green, or many great shops, in all honesty I consider myself lucky to be within reasonable driving distance of Elderly. I suppose the next closest would be in Chicago. So, I guess I'm just saying you have as many good places per square mile than anyone else, maybe.

[Randi Gormley]

When I read the OP's description of the hovering clerk, I was wondering how old they were and how long they'd worked there. A new person, or one who was left in charge for the first time, might not have developed the skill to gauge potential customers or not have completely absorbed what the store considers customer service. Or they may have been too lenient with their own buddies or contemporaries and gotten raked over the coals for it. So much of it is situational.

I think if it were me, I'd try Store No. 1 another time, just in case the attitude was a fluke. If it happens more than once, though, I'd take my business elsewhere.

In my business, occasionally, I'll run up against someone who is more strict and less forgiving than the person in charge, taking on their own shoulders what they see as a more controlled atmosphere -- whether they're asked to do so or not. It's a power thing and often a personality thing. I've seen it go against the express wishes of the person who makes the rules. It might not be a bad idea to try to talk with Store No. 1's owner or manager to double check the store's policies. At least then you know where you stand.

[JEStanek]

The closest to a mando tasting in a store I ever did was down in Philly at Fred Oster's Shop Vintage Instruments (http://www.vintage-instruments.com/). It was clear I wasn't going to be buying that day but, they sent a guy to the mandolin store (separate building) opened it, gave me a tuner and a pick and then left me alone for like 45 minutes to have at it on a wall of vintage Gibson oval holes along with some Webers and plenty of vintage Martins. No looking over my shoulder.

Jamie

[Capt. E]

I did have a sales person show concern about my trying out an Ellis F5 once. He was concerned that the back might get scratched by the buttons on my shirt, so I tucked a cloth into my shirt front. The finish on high end mandos can be somewhat fragile.

[EdHanrahan]

This thread seems like the right place to give a big +1 to Harry Tuft and his staff at the Denver Folklore Center (NFI), where I stopped in last March while passing by my mom's childhood home.

Initially, Harry was in his office on the phone, but his staff couldn't have been nicer:
"Yeah, I'd sure like to try out the ($4K) XYZ mando that's in the back of the cabinet."
"Sure, have at it."
"Uhmm, maybe unlock the cabinet?"
"Cabinet's open; just grab it."
"Uhmm... So you'll let ME move the $7K mandolin just to get at the $4K one?"
Big smile and a shrug!

Maybe it helped that I started off by commenting that I was just passing thru town and had heard of the place (extensively, here on the Café). And that, "Nah, you really don't need to get the Loar ($175K) out of the vault just for me."

I could go on WAY more about the hour that I spent there, with Harry eventually making me feel like an old buddy, but I think you get the jist!

[FLATROCK HILL]

I did have a sales person show concern about my trying out an Ellis F5 once. He was concerned that the back might get scratched by the buttons on my shirt, so I tucked a cloth into my shirt front. The finish on high end mandos can be somewhat fragile.

My Favorite Guitars in Naples Fla sells more new Martin guitars than anyone else in the country IIRC. The people are nice, they welcome and encourage customers to sit down and pick on any Martin or Gibson or other high end guitar they have.
If they think you're wearing anything that might scratch the instruments, they'll ask you to put on one of their protective bibs.

That's a reasonable solution and I don't mind it at all. The bib does cramp the style of some of the 'Slash' wannabees though.

[Dave Greenspoon]

My one stop at Mando brothers had Stan eventually take me to "the room with the good stuff" and I finally test-drove a Monteleone. It was nicer than the Loar Stan had pulled out for me.

When traveling through Teaneck, Buzzy (and crew) at Lark Street don't think twice when I meander into the room of mandos, or pull a Collings MF-5V down and pick around a bit.

Steve at Acoustic Music Works in Pgh similarly has a welcoming atmosphere, and will often pull out a "special instrument" not on display.

Three very different shops regarding their content, but a common thread to them all: they make folks feel welcome, even if its just to kick a few tires. They are also shops that are competitive in a niche market designed to appeal to real players.

IMO, it's that willingness to be welcoming that will attract folks back when it is time to spend real money...in any industry or business. Had it been me in the OP's situation, I'd likely have offered some feedback to the boss about ambiance. If I were the owner or manager, I'd want to know that a staff person failed to make a potential customer feel great about their visit...even if was only a tire-kicking expedition. Small shop, brick-and-mortar stores have a hard enough time being successful in the big box, net-driven marketplace. They certainly don't need to be hastening their own demise.

[peter.coombe]

Difficult situation. As players we all want to go into the store, pick up the mandolin of our dreams and play it. Fine, so long as you don't damage it! It is up to you to respect the instrument, to take care of it and don't damage it, so you have a responsibility. The expensive mandolins are likely to be much more susceptible to damage because they have a softer varnish finish. As a maker who has put mandolins into music shops I can attest that instruments do get damaged, so nervousness of the sales staff when you pick up an expensive mandolin is very understandable. Some players can be very rough with the pick so pick damage is a common problem, especially with guitars. Sometimes the damage can be serious like when some idiot dropped one of my mandolins on the endpin onto to a concrete floor. What happens after something like that happens can be unpleasant for everyone. In this case I just had to wear it and repair the mandolin, but I was not happy. The best approach is to try and reassure the sales staff that you are going to be careful, and make sure you remove any belt buckles or metal buttons! If they see you remove your belt and/or use a cloth to protect the instrument then they will realise you understand the problem and are much more likely to relax. If a bib "cramps your style" then you shouldn't be in the store. I agree that a friendly approach from the store is more likely to get a sale, but customers do have a responsibility to be friendly to the instruments.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Peter above,beat me to it. These are not our instruments,they are the property of the store owners & as such we should respect that point. The other point is that if we accidentally damage an instrument somehow,then maybe the store would have to put the damage right prior to putting it back on sale,something i feel they'd have a right to charge the person who damaged it for.
Being realistic,no musician worthy of the name would purposely damage an instrument,we usually do have respect for them & their makers,but accidents can & do happen,& it's up to us to prevent that. I do know that in most UK stores where expensive crockery is sold,there's always a sign saying that ''any damaged or broken items must be paid for''. Maybe a similar sign regarding damage to instruments would warn off customers who might not have quite as much respect as they should have,
Ivan;)

[Darren Bailey]

There is a guitar shop in Newtown, wales where the welcome is amazing. Not only do they actively encourage you to try out inistruments intheir practice room, they offer free coffee while you do so. I have been happy to always make sure i go there first when staisfying my son's lust for another guitar. They don't have many mandolins to try out but what they have are there to be tried out. They even have an open-mic session on Saturday mornings.
I understand retailers protecting valuable stock, but a friendly environment gets my money whenever possible.
By the way, I have no family, financial or personal connection with the place other than being a happy customer.

[Bertram Henze]

This reminds me of a much older thread discussing if you would let somebody else try your instrument in a session or jam. The balance between being nice to people and being nice to instruments is about the same, and it depends on your ability to gauge somebody else's attitude quickly - it took me a long time to learn that, time that inexperienced staff in a shop probably never had.

[EdHanrahan]

... I do know that in most UK stores where expensive crockery is sold, there's always a sign saying that ''any damaged or broken items must be paid for''.

Yep, they're all over the U.S. as well.

The problem is that (as I only learned after paying my $80 or $90 about 30 years ago), technically, the loss of such crockery is, in pure legal & accounting terms, a loss of inventory, which should be written off as a regular business expense, and not the loss of a sale. Their sign implies the intent of recovering both their cost and their not-yet-earned profit on the damaged goods from a prospective customer.

All businesses accept, even anticipate, that inventory may be damaged, lost, or expire before it is sold for a profit - it's just a part of "doing business". (I won't get into the detailed legalities or "generally accepted accounting principals", but... yeah). So legally, they have no actual right to demand payment for such broken object. Morally, it would be reasonable, if not legally required, for the breaker (me, in this case) to compensate the seller for their loss of inventory, but not for their loss of profit.

(Of course, when the shopkeeper calls in his brother the police chief to settle the issue, he might not be so accounting-minded!)

Such logic should apply to instruments, as well. And in practice, as we're discussing here, it does.