Info on Gibson F5L

[Mitch Harris]

I'm a newbie to this board and have a question the folks here can most likely answer. I read where the Gibson MM is a recreation of the early 20's Loar. Is the F5L also a recreation of a specific time period Gibson? Are the differences between the MM and F5L basically the use of hide glue and a varnish finish? It's a little confusing because the F5L I have(4/2004) has a sticker inside that says "Master Model" Fern.

Thanks for any feedback in this regard. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[evanreilly]

As the varnish-finished Master Model F-5 is a current recreation of the Lloyd Loar era F-5 mandolin, the current Gibson laquer-finished F-5L/Fern is a recreation of the Post-Loar era mandolins.
That is it in a nutshell.

[kudzugypsy]

[QUOTE]Are the differences between the MM and F5L basically the use of hide glue and a varnish finish?

thats what gibson says....with the VERY important difference IMO of the red spruce top.
i think charlie & big joe have stated on here that they are both based on the same specs.

[GTison]

And I would add that the proper term for your model of mandolin is a "Fern" not an "F5L". to distinguish it from the previous version of Laquer finished, modern glued, sitka spruce topped mandolins. also the pre-Nashville F5L had the Mortise and tennon so called 'bolt-on' neck which many feel was not to Loar specs. The F models currently all are carved to the same specifications. But the "small" differences seem to make a big difference as Kudzugypsy said. I own a 02 Fern.

[Big Joe]

Your 2004 Fern has the same body carvings and tap tuning as the Master Model and is a faithful reproduction of the Lloyd Loar mandolins from the 20's. The difference from your mandolin and the model called "Master Model" is the top on yours is from Sitka spruce rather than Adirondak on the MM. The fingerboard extension support on the MM is Macasar Ebony and used hide glue in the production. The flowerpot is found on most MM's and the color is a tobacco sunburst rather than a redder color on the Fern. Yours is not an F5L, but rather an F5 Fern. The final significant difference is yours has a nitro lacquer finish where the MM has a varnish/french polish finish. The actual build and quality is the same for each. Yours would more closely resemble a 25-28 Fern but with more closely aligned Loar body specs. Hope this helps.

[Markelberry]

I have an 1990 that says on the label Gibson Master Model F5L, would this also have sitka spruce top? And could you explain the difference again in the neck joint of my mandolin compared to the Nashville 5s.

[Big Joe]

Certainly. First, the label is used on all F5 mandolins. It is the same label used since the Loar days. The F5 uses the designation 'Master Model' to designate the shape and raised fingerboard, adjustable bridge, tone bars, etc. It was a radical differentiation from what was available before it. It also used the adjustable Truss Rod which was a Gibson invention and first used in 1921. This does not mean it is the same mandolin referred to currently as the "Master Model", which is a very close reproduction of the Loar mandolin. Your F5L is differen from the curren F5Fern in several ways. The body on the current one is made like the original in shape and tuning. The ones made in Montana were made to appear like the original, but were not that accurate. The finish on the ones in Montana were usually quite a bit thicker and the top graduations were not anywhere near accurate. The necks were put together with a mortise and tenon joint and used two bolts in the neck joint to help hold it together and keep it stable. This has not proved to be a very stable joint and many are having to have the necks reset now that 10-20 years has passed. Currently we use a dovetail joint that is far more secure. It is the kind of joint used in the original Loars and these generally require little or no work over time. Most Loars have never had to have a neck set. This gives a better joint and a tighter joint to help give the best possible tone and playability to the instrument.

I hope these things help explain the difference. The Montana Gibson mandolins were some of the best available at the time, but fortunately corrections have been made to make them a much better mandolin than they were then.

[Markelberry]

Thanks Big Joe that answers alot of things for me. I thought the neck joint was as the current Ferns. The color of the finish on my mandolin is really nice looking. It also sounds really great to my ears. I sure hope the neck joint holds up. Its 15 years old,hope its one of the lucky ones,or maybe its a good time to sell and save for a new fern. Either way it is definately my favorite Ive ever had to play,and nicest looking one too.

[Markelberry]

There is one or two more questions I have about my mandolin. I read that it was around 1976 that they began trying to be more faithful to the original Loar specs. Why is it in 1990 they were not even close on the soundboard graduations and were using a neck joint that was not correct either? And lastly did Mr Carlson oversee what Gibson wanted done in shop,or did he use his own ideas as to what would be good for the instrument.

[Big Joe]

In 1976 Gibson was making an attempt...no matter how feeble. At least they looked a little more like a real mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif but still was not in the ball park. When Gibson bought Flatiron in 87 Steve Carlson stayed on to oversee the operation for Gibson. He continued to do his thing largely because the entire set up was already there and he was builidng a good product. We are not ashamed of the instrument produced then. We are just happy that we were able to improve on what we did then and restore the mandolin to what it was in its heyday. This should not take anything away from the product built in Montana. They did a great job of helping restore the mandolin to its prominence in modern American music. They were dedicated to building a good product and did what they knew to make the best they could. I am only thankful we are able to take that heritage and move forward (or backwards as the case may be http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ). In the right time in history the right people were together to bring the instrument from where it was in its Montana days to where it is now. We build the finest mandolins we have ever built and it is partially because of the fine effort of the great people in Bozeman who set a wonderful standard of excellence. We were able to take that basis and restore the mandolin to what it was intended in 1923. I hope this helps explain somewhat.

[kudzugypsy]

boy, this question comes up SO MUCH. i'm wondering in 100 years if this doesnt become another 'this violin is a Stradivarious, see, it says so on the label" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Steven Stone]

[boy, this question comes up SO MUCH. i'm wondering in 100 years if this doesnt become another 'this violin is a Stradivarious, see, it says so on the label"]

If mandolin experts in a 100 years know as much as violin experts do, this question will laughed off. I think Big Joe has done an excellent job of explaining the differences between Montana and Nashville mandolins.

Perhaps Gibson should incorporate his explanation into a FAQ on their website. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Markelberry]

Thank you so much it answers all my questions, Im very happy with my Montana Gibson.

[Osamu Hayakawa]

I've read some article that F5L has started on 1978 at Kalamazoo. I think Gibson making F5 until 1980. What are the differences between those Kalamazoo F5 and F5L. Peg head inlay and Neck joint seems like different. Anybody know the differences?

By the way, I have a 1980 F5L and 1999 F5L. Both are different in sound and scroll shape. 1980 top looks much thinner than 1999 and scroll looks very much handmade.

[kudzugypsy]

welcome Osamu,
even after the re-designed F5 came out in 1978, the kalamazoo mandolins still could not match what else was on the market at the time, so they bought out the competition, Flatiron, in the mid 1980's, and moved production to their factory in montana. these mandolins were a great improvement IMO.

[Big Joe]

Actually, in 1978 there was little competition and not much call for mandolins period. The Kalamazoo era mandolins were fine instruments for the time, but not really compared to the instruments made today. By the time Gibson bought Flatiron the entire operation had moved to Nashville and there was little room or enough bodies to build mandolins. Mandolins were becoming a desireable product again and there was not capability to build them in Nashville without sacrificing other operations. Flatiron was available and made a great option for Gibson. The mandolin production was then in Montana for a decade before it was moved back to Nashville. Many of the mandolins from the Kalamazoo era in the 70's and 80's are pretty good and a bit of work and great set up can make them realize their potential. The neck joints from that era were a combination of efforts to hold the neck in. Some were pretty fair, others not so good. One advantage in buying Flatiron was a ready workforce with tooling in place and the capability to produce a reasonable mandolin with the Gibson name on it in a relatively short time. The mandolins made in Montana were a fine product for the time, and while we may prefer some of the better building techniques used today, they were...for the time...a great product. Many owners of the Montana era Gibson and Flatiron continue to be very pleased with their instrument and they represent a very good value in the market place. The same with the Kalamazoo made mandolins from the 70's and 80's. They are still a good value for the money and can be made much better with some effort.

Remember, there are several different phases of Gibson mandolins that are represented. They are from different eras and each has its good side and some have a bit of a dark side. Still, and in spite of this, the mandolins from all eras still are highly sought after and are loved by the owners of those mandolins. I remember well how many years I would have loved to have ANY Gibson mandolin but could not find or afford one. Not much has changed in certain areas of the world. For those looking for a good value priced mandolin with Gibson on the headstock the 70's models can be bought pretty cheap and are a good looking instrument. Are they very Loarish? Of course not, but that does not mean they are not good. I hope this information helps a bit.

[Osamu Hayakawa]

Thank you for the detailed background of the Gibson mandolin history.

My 1980 F5L tone bar has saved down to about 1/4" height. This made incredible tone and volume difference. She sounds mellow but crisp and dry like pre-war F5s, I really love it. (Is this the "some effort"?) Only thing I do not like is the scroll finish. This 1980 F5L is stamped "SECOND" on back of the peg head.

My 1999 F5L is very solid mandolin. It's very loud and produces crisp tone but somewhat the chop is not my taste. (My personal preference is “woody barking” chop like my 1980 F5L.)

[Brian Ray]

Joe,

One thing confuses me... when did the F5L become the "Fern"? Differences? Year?

[Big Joe]

In a way. In 2003 the designation of F5L was discontinued to keep the current Fern from being confused with it. Since the instrument had changed radically, we did not want them to be considered the same. The Ferns are far more reminiscent of the late 20's Ferns Gibson produced post loar. Even the reddish hue in the color is different from the F5L. The body graduations and the little details are far more correct to the era and uses the same neck joint. While the F5L was a great mandolin, and is pretty much the same instrument as the Fern, the Fern is the progression from where the F5 mandolin had strayed to where it had come back to its roots. This may seem like semantics, but it designates a return to making them the 'right' way again. The tone of the new Fern will be a bit different from the F5L and more like the old Fern...without the age http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . Hope this helps some.

[G.Run]

:grin: It certainly sounds like my Gibson F5L is one of a kind. It was made in 1980 in Kalamazoo. I acquired it from Paul Buskirk who had acquired it from Gibson on some special deal because he used it to record with Willie Nelson on his Over The Rainbow album. He is pictured with Willie and he is holding the mandolin on the vinyl cover sheet inside the album. I have had several pickers tell me it is one of the best mandolins they have played. As I said in an earlier post, I have a 1980 Monteleone that was custom made by John for me. I prefer to play the F5L. If Big John or anyone else knows anything about this particular F5L I would like to hear it.

[G.Run]

Excuse me for calling you big John, big Joe. Must have been because of the song!

[Bernie Daniel]

...Perhaps Gibson should incorporate his explanation into a FAQ on their website. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Yes, GREAT idea! Then again Gibson could not even keep track of their serial numbers over the years....:))

[jimmy powells]

What can anyone tell me about a 1980 Gibson F5 with fern. Is is an F5L or an F5 and what type of neck joint would this have ?

Made January 1980

Many thanks to any replies

Jimmy Powells
UK

[f5loar]

It would have to be an F5L. Not sure on the neck joint but likely regular dove tail. By then they were no longer offering the regular F5.

[jimmy powells]

It would have to be an F5L. Not sure on the neck joint but likely regular dove tail. By then they were no longer offering the regular F5.

Many thanks indeed.

Jimmy

[earthspan]

It would have to be an F5L. Not sure on the neck joint but likely regular dove tail. By then they were no longer offering the regular F5.

Interesting! I have a 1980 F5. Nominally, at least, it is a Master Model signed by Marv Lamb. The serial number suggests January but the other label states April. Sounds like it might be one of the last F5s out of Kalamazoo? It has flowerpot inlay, exquisite flamed maple back and fancy fretboard markers. It is very loud. Possibly red spruce, but I am not expert enough to tell just from looking. I will attempt to attach some photos.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I see the label, but that F5 (to me) seems to have all the markings of an early/mid '70s F5, the flower pot, the script, the large sound holes, the missing "neck buttons" at the 15th fret in connection with the pointed neck heel, the worm-over-gear tuners and the fb-inlay (which was actually a very early original Gibson design AFAIK, but was used by Ibanez, Aria and Washburn in the '70s). That F5 doesn't look like the '78 F5Ls I have seen. You seem to have something special here, congrats - especially when it sounds good.

[DataNick]

That one is confusing as Henry points out; however I'm betting it's a holdover F5 produced at the same time that the F5Ls were dominating mandolin production. They still produced an F5 here or there, but hardly any. The name on the signature label, and the identification as "President" along with the fingerboard inlay scheme suggests early, mid 70s as Henry notes. However the date is off.

Roger Siminoff could verify this for ya, I would PM Roger with the photos. As far as the tonewood , they weren't using red spruce then, only sitka AFAIK...

[Timbofood]

Well, Marv Lamb is one of the owners of "Heritage" guitars at 225 Parsons street here in Kalamazoo and an extremely kind fellow, send home some pictures and I would bet he can fill in a few blanks for you. Just a suggestion.
Pretty back!