do mando players need to play more precisely than others?

[chuck3]

Stuck at LAX waiting for the redeye back to NY, and using the opportunity to listen to all the mp3s here on Mandolin Cafe. What strikes me is how all the mando players on the mp3s (admittedly all very good ones) play with such rhythmic and tonal precision. As a bass player including upright, I'd be the first to say I sometimes slide into notes or play ahead of or behind the beat, hopefully with musical intent but perhaps with sloppiness sometimes. And forget guitar players, especially in rock, they are sliding in and out all over the place. I think you know what I'm talking about.

So I guess my question is whether other musicians expect more from mando players in terms of the precision of their playing? Given that we play this small high-pitched instrument are we expected to stick every landing, so to speak?

[David Lewis]

You tend to notice mando mistakes more. Having said that Monroe got less precise as he got older.

[Petrus]

Well look how small that fretboard is. :cool: Also, with very little sustain, there's not a lot of options for sliding, although it can be done.

[StuartE]

Higher range makes it possible--and necessary--to play more precisely than a bass.

[Chris W.]

The distance between frets demands precision. Think about capoing your guitar at the 10th or 12th fret and trying to pick a fast melody. You have a lot less room for error.

[journeybear]

It depends on the kind of music you're playing. Bluegrass players emphasize clean picking; blues and rock players, somewhat less so. My band's nature and repertoire provide me with a lot of different genres to work with during the course of a gig, and I adjust my playing accordingly.

My mood affects my feelings toward precision too. Friday night I was seriously PO'd, as my van got towed, with all the gear inside, just an hour before showtime. A hundred bucks poorer and a half hour late, I let loose some of that steam in my playing. Not all songs are appropriate for this sort of attack, of course, and on the softer ones, much of the swing, and the few bluegrass and Irish ones we do, I stuck to the script, trying to pick as precisely as possible.

But on the wilder numbers, especially the gypsy jazz, rock, blues, and even some swing ones, I gave myself free reign, throwing in all kinds of slides, slurs, and smears. It felt good to let it all hang out, at least as far as I was willing to go - don't want to be grandstanding. But there were a few songs where it was like surfing, when you catch a good wave and just ride it as far as it will take you. You have to have a solid base in technique before you go into this area, and believe in your ability to carry it through - not for the faint of heart - but it sure can be fun. And it sure was. :mandosmiley:

[roysboy]

What everyone has said above ....
After a few years picking mandolin ( and about 50 more playing guitar ) I found it very difficult to play clean/precise on the mandolin ...but it IS improving . If you listen to guys like Will Patton , Thile , of course , Mike Marshall ....countless others, at least you understand that it's possible to get that smooth execution down . Good luck ....hang in .

[Ivan Kelsall]

I love 'slides' !. Slides can be used for effect, or to get you from a 'wrong note' to the 'right note' while you're playing. Done neatly,it looks as though you did it for the ''effect''.
To the OP's question - personally,because of the small fret distances,i think that mandolin players have to be very precise compared to guitar or banjo players,& i don't mean that guitar or banjo players are 'sloppy',just that they have a little more room to play with (literally). When i watch Adam Steffey play,his fingering is so precise,you'd need a micrometer to measure it,& it's something i try to emulate in my own playing,
Ivan;)

http://youtu.be/VMTViTXejow

[John Kelly]

And then, of course, you move to the fiddle and all thoughts of how precise you were on the mando or other fretted instrument go out the window! :mandosmiley:

[Mandoplumb]

I think the key phrase is "musical intent". If a bass, a guitar,a banjo, or yes even a mandolin uses timing variety or noting slides or bending strings intentionally then that is musical expression. Quite different than " just don't care" In my opinion with out these"embellishments" music is boring or too precise. If I was marooned on a dessert island and could only hear one mandolin player for the duration, I would rather hear Ron Thomas than Chris Thile.

[journeybear]

Right. There's "precise," then there's "fussy." ;) The music has to breathe. You still don't want to be sloppy - unless you mean to be - but you don't want to undermine your own efforts. In either direction.

[JeffD]

I think the key phrase is "musical intent"..

That's it. Yes you have to be able to nail it. You have to be able to play clearly, cleanly and precisely, and fast. Not because its a mandolin, but because you are a musician.

What ever loosey goosey elements you put into a given tune have to be deliberate and intended. The audience has to know you could do it "right" but in this case you intend to do something "different".

Sounding "sloppy", imprecise, and "dirty" as a deliberate effect for an intended purpose is a good thing. Sounding sloppy because its the best you can do, not so good.


That said, few of us are perfect musicians. I know where my limits are (and in some cases how they got there). I just refuse to pretend "I meant that".

[William Smith]

You can play how ever you want to play! Don't let know one tell you different! "Bill monroe plays it this way" Steffy plays it this way" etc....

[journeybear]

"do mando players need to play more precisely than others?"

No, but they may want to. ;)

What I really want to do is play what I imagine in my mind, without constantly watching my fingers on the fretboard. I'm sure playing with my head bowed down in order to do that looks boring to an audience, and may well create a distance between me and them, but it's more important that I play right than look right. The audio portion of the show is more important than the visual portion. AFAIC. ;) But I'd like to be more familiar with the fretboard, enough so that I can play without looking, and provide a more presentable image for others. Without making any flubs, naturally. :)

[JeffD]

I think we are more forgiving of imprecise playing in certain genres.

And yes you can play too precisely - the best example I can think of is this album (http://www.allmusic.com/album/different-kind-of-blues-mw0002428188), which I thought I would like but actually didn't.


I guess the thing is that you need to be able to play more precisely than you may choose to play. Because otherwise, its not a choice.

[foldedpath]

And then, of course, you move to the fiddle and all thoughts of how precise you were on the mando or other fretted instrument go out the window! :mandosmiley:

Yeah, no kidding.

I think it's fair to say that mandolin requires (or at least encourages) more precision than guitar, due to the shorter scale and high pitch where mistakes are clearly heard. Since so many of us come to mandolin with prior experience on guitar, it's a noticeable difference.

But if we're comparing it to the wider world of non-fretted instruments, then it sits lower on the "accuracy required" continuum than some others. Fiddle, certainly, and probably flute if we're talking about intonation, which requires embouchure support as well as fingering. We have it easy; we can get a 12TET note just by pushing a finger down on the fretboard anywhere between two frets.

[JSanta]

Having been a guitarist for most of my life and also just receiving my first mandolin this past week, it is without a doubt in my mind (and fingers!) that more precision is required. I think simply on the technical aspects of picking and fretting, the instrument is far more unforgiving than a guitar. I would simply guess then that the instrument requires the musician to be more technically proficient, and that comes across when listening to good players.

[jim simpson]

A friend and fellow picker asked me how to play clean and fast. I suggested learning to play a piece slow then increase speed as ability allows.

[rubydubyr]

I think we are more forgiving of imprecise playing in certain genres.

And yes you can play too precisely - the best example I can think of is this album (http://www.allmusic.com/album/different-kind-of-blues-mw0002428188), which I thought I would like but actually didn't.

Perlman and Previn are classical musicians, so of course anything they play is going to be played very precise. Hard to let go (no pun intended) of a lifetime of training.

[rubydubyr]

A friend and fellow picker asked me how to play clean and fast. I suggested learning to play a piece slow then increase speed as ability allows.

That is what I did on piano, and what I am now doing on mandolin.

[mandroid]

Depends on the Crowd you hang out with , some Peer Groups are more Casual Than Others..


Since OP was listening to Well Produced MP3's ,
Realize they do not do those recording sessions on the first run thru.

Just winging it with their bandmates :whistling:

[Astro]

In general I've found mandolins can handle up to two beer precision.

Whereas guitars can get away with up to 3 or 4 beer precision.

So group your mandolin songs in the first set, and switch to guitar in the second.

All bets off in the third set. May as well break out the banjo cause it can't get any worse.

[Manfred Hacker]

"do mando players need to play more precisely than others? "

No! They should just not try to play faster than they are able to. Because that makes them mute notes. And I have heard many muted notes, both from professional players and amateurs, even on recordings. Or is that just the 'musical intent' mentioned above?

[rubydubyr]

This entire discussion reminds me of a water color class I took years ago. There I was very cafefully and painstakingly painting in each rock in the landscape with a "dry" brush technique while the instructor kept looking over my shoulder "yelling", "let go, just LET GO!" Of course, I couldn't...... I was a classically trained pianist....... :))

[mbruno]

It's the difference between the way Hemmingway and Douglas Adams write. One is more about describing every detail so you see the full picture, the other is more about surprising you with twists you didn't expect than with clarity. Douglas Adam's style is sloppy in comparison to Hemmingway, but it's perfect for what he's trying to accomplish / convey to the reader.

Clarity is important when it is. "Sloppy playing" is important when it is as well. Personally, I often like having a very clear / clean melody and a more blurry / sloppy solo that puts more urgency in.

[foldedpath]

"do mando players need to play more precisely than others? "

No! They should just not try to play faster than they are able to. Because that makes them mute notes. And I have heard many muted notes, both from professional players and amateurs, even on recordings. Or is that just the 'musical intent' mentioned above?

It might be intentional, at least in some cases. Partial muting can allow the individual notes to be heard clearly in a fast run, instead of blending together. Al DiMeola did a lot of that on his acoustic guitar recordings.

Of course the trick is to know when it's intentional and not just sloppy technique. :)

Usually the context is a clue, where the player will shift into a muted run and than back out to more sustained notes. If the whole thing sounds muddy then it's just bad technique. Or possibly a bad recording or bad PA system.

[Jackgaryk]

"Friday night I was seriously PO'd, as my van got towed, with all the gear inside, just an hour before showtime. A hundred bucks poorer and a half hour late, I let loose some of that steam in my playing."


Hey Journeybear...sounds like a great idea for a song. I won't ask why you got towed.

[chuck3]

Thanks for all your thoughts on this. I think I'm trying to do too much on mando, and should narrow down to trying to do fewer things with greater precision. Although I am sometimes asked to solo freestyle (for want of a better term). But even with that ... practice, practice, practice .... stick those landings.

Anyway, your responses (which I was reading on my blackberry as I was able) got me through the overnight flight from LA back to Brooklyn, so all appreciated.

[JeffD]

Perlman and Previn are classical musicians, so of course anything they play is going to be played very precise. Hard to let go (no pun intended) of a lifetime of training.

Exactly. And a life time of classical expectations.

[journeybear]

"Friday night I was seriously PO'd, as my van got towed, with all the gear inside, just an hour before showtime. A hundred bucks poorer and a half hour late, I let loose some of that steam in my playing."


Hey Journeybear...sounds like a great idea for a song. I won't ask why you got towed.

I don't mind saying, if people don't mind a bit of a sidetrack. It might actually make a good song. A talking blues of satirical nature, I expect.

Pete Frazier, a longtime member of our musical community -drummer, guitarist, and singer - died a couple of weeks ago. I had known him for more than twenty years - he joined my old band from 1988 after I left, and I used to come down here over Christmas vacations when I could, and sat in with them some times. He was quite obese, so it's not surprising he died sooner than he should have, but still ... But it gets worse. He had gone to San Francisco to explore some opportunities there, and that's where he died. He had no money to speak of and no insurance, and his body was kept in a hospital morgue waiting for someone to deal with it. I heard about this when someone posted a fundraiser online to pay for cremation and shipping. It took over a week, but enough was raised this way to make this happen.

Friday afternoon I got a facebook notice that his duo partner, Bo Fodor, was turning his gig that evening into a fundraiser. I offered to pitch in, though it would have to be early on - his gig started at 6, my gig started at 8:30, so I had to be there at 7:30. I put new strings on my electric, tweaked my amp to get the settings right for both the electric and the acoustic, so I could plug in and play with a minimum of bother. I picked out a few songs I thought would work, and practiced them a few times. I loaded up my van with the gear for the gig, and off I went.

Parking in downtown Key West is difficult, if not nearly impossible, and awful expensive. The club I had to go to was right on the main drag, with only four free parking spaces nearby - already taken, of course. I parked in the Old City Hall parking lot, a block and a half away, close enough to walk with my instruments, gear, and amp. I figured it would be OK, as I have seen cars parked there plenty, after business hours. (It is customary here to park in spaces thus no longer needed by businesses.) Yes, there were signs posted about towing 24/7, but I figured I would be all right for the short time I would be there. And I was doing a good deed, right?

I played a couple songs with Bo and his new duo partner. Then, per my request, I did an original song I felt was appropriate, preceded by three ceremonial blast on my conch shell. I did a few more sings with the guys, then it was time for the next performer. I packed up, hung around for a bit talking with other musicians and friends there, and left.

You know the rest of the story - or at any rate, you can fill in the rest, there was nothing unusual about it. Except the woman at the tow company (who I wish wouldn't have called me "honey," "sweetie," and "baby") told me one of the city commissioners had called it in, and even gave me his name. He may be getting a visit from me in the morning. One other weird thing - there was no ticket. I thought a cop had to write a ticket for illegal parking before you could be towed. Guess not. On the one hand, it was less expensive this way. On the other hand, I just want to contest this, somehow. Well, no good deed goes unpunished.

PS: It sure would have been nice if the guys in the band would have taken $100 off the top of the tips to pay for the tow. Lord knows I've been hauling around the gear, which is mostly mine, in my van, which is all mine, for most of the last two years, and no one ever kicks in for gas. You know? Help a brother out!

[RichardF]

This is an interesting topic. If your role in a band is to provide fills and occasional leads, then you may well be playing at a volume which allows you to be heard over the backing, especially in an amplified band. In that case any sloppy playing will stand out a mile and will irritate the band and the audience. I always feel that I owe I to them to be as correct as possible, plus it's personal pride. Another question I'd add though is, should the mandolin player play mandolin all night or does the audience need a rest from the frequency? I tend to play electric 10 string mandocello for maybe two thirds of an evening, playing a blending guitarist type role with some leads, and only break out the mandolin for certain songs.

[Ivan Kelsall]

A very good point John regarding the Violin,or,in fact any of the orchestral stringed instruments. It's totally amazing at how precise these musicians are,even when playing the most outrageously difficult pieces. Here's Julia Fischer,one of my favourite Violinists - you want precision - you got it !!,:disbelief:
Ivan

http://youtu.be/LL-uyKDhDUM

[rubydubyr]

Parking in downtown Key West is difficult, if not nearly impossible, and awful expensive. The club I had to go to was right on the main drag, with only four free parking spaces nearby - already taken, of course. I parked in the Old City Hall parking lot, a block and a half away, close enough to walk with my instruments, gear, and amp. I figured it would be OK, as I have seen cars parked there plenty, after business hours. (It is customary here to park in spaces thus no longer needed by businesses.) Yes, there were signs posted about towing 24/7, but I figured I would be all right for the short time I would be there. And I was doing a good deed, right?


That's very strange, JB, most cities allow free parking in city lots and in parking metered spots after 5pm, and on weekends, in order to draw people into the city during those times. I guess the conch republic figures they don't need to do that, that their location in the keys is "draw" enough.....

[rubydubyr]

A very good point John regarding the Violin,or,in fact any of the orchestral stringed instruments. It's totally amazing at how precise these musicians are,even when playing the most outrageously difficult pieces. Here's Julia Fischer,one of my favourite Violinists - you want precision - you got it !!,:disbelief:
Ivan

They probably practice 6-8 hours a day. It is their job after all. Not to mention, that although we might only see them play the music once or twice in our lifetime, it is most certainly a piece of their repertoire which they use for performance after performance. And most have been playing since they were very small children. Most of the really good ones are started when they are 4-5 years old. My brother's violin teacher would put a special made tiny violin in her children's hands when they were 2 or 3 years old and although they couldn't really play a song at that time, they were learning how to hold it and how to bow it and getting comfortable with it.

[journeybear]

I figure there is some sort of cahoots going on here. Tow companies and exorbitant parking lots need to make their money, too. The tow truck drivers probably spend their time going around town looking at the lots for which their company has contracts. I should mention there were two other vehicles parked in the lot when I got back to see mine gone - one even in the handicapped space. I guess it's just my luck. :crying:

[stevedenver]

just like that violin example
mando's register is easy to hear

precision is necessary, imho, simply to get nice clarity and tone,
and as mentioned, whatever feel, through intentional technique, not mere chance

more than other instruments? no
more difficult to achieve than some, I think so.

I think precision is exactly what I hear in Thile, Steffy, Hull, Grisman, Statman, Reischman, Sammy The B, and my other heros
clarity, dynamics, and .....speed

there are certain pieces that demand it a lot more so than others.....

[Gelsenbury]

I don't play guitar. But what I will say is that I was able to show techniques such as slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs to a friend's daughter on her guitar - and thought that they were all MUCH easier than on mandolin.