Advice On Reviving 1930s Columbia Banjolin

[Ed Goist]

A friend of mine has taken possession of her recently deceased mother's banjolin. My friend is fairly certain that the banjolin dates to the 1930s, and that her mother was given the banjolin when she was a child in West Virginia.

My friend has asked me to revive the instrument as best I can. She'd also love to hear me play it. I'd like to do my very best for her.

There are a few things I'm hoping I can get some advice on:

* Tightening the banjo style tuners.

These are quite lose, and don't hold very well at all. I assume (hope) that I can tighten these by simply tightening the screw on the tuning post? Once sufficiently tightened, I plan on cleaning these with naphtha and lubing them with a drop of petroleum jelly applied with a tooth pick (I'd successfully done this on vintage guitar tuners).

Any advice regarding bringing the tuners up to speed?

* Setting the scale length.

I assume the scale on this should be 14"? (I set the scale to 14" for the pics, and the instrument seems to look about right to me with the scale there. Thoughts?) Of course, I'll check the scale via the intonation once it's strung, but I'd like to start the stringing process with the scale set to as close to spot-on as possible.

Can the scale length be determined precisely by measuring the distance between frets? Any tips about setting the scale length I should know?

* The banjolin seems to be missing a couple of brackets.

However, the head seems quite secure and tight. I'm hoping this will not be a problem. Comments?

* Strings?

As you can see from the simple but clever tailpiece design, it looks like one can use either loop or ball end strings (has ancient ball-end strings now). My initial thought was to use GHS A240 ultra light (9-32) mandolin strings (using just one string of each course, of course). Would these strings be a good choice?

- Any other advice or comments?

Thanks so much.

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[pops1]

Brackets missing are no problem. If you want it to sound good get banjo strings, a set of tenor will work better than mandolin strings, you don't need heavy strings on a banjo. The tuners are friction and yes tightening the screw will help them not slip, i would not lube them as you need them to stay in place it's only friction that holds them. Scale length can be measured by measuring from the nut to the 12th fret and double it. you will have to move the bridge slightly back from that measurement because of string stretch. you could also use uke strings on this if you want a quieter sound and easier tuning. i usually put cheap guitar tuners on if i want to use steel strings. These are fun, enjoy.

[allenhopkins]

Are you sure this is a banjolin and not a banjo-ukulele? Scale length is about right for either.

[Ed Goist]

Are you sure this is a banjolin and not a banjo-ukulele? Scale length is about right for either.

Hi Allen; I am not at all sure. I assumed it was a banjolin because of the steel strings.
Thanks to Pops1's reminder that scale length = [(bottom of nut ---> front edge of fret 12) X 2], I can report that it has a scale of 13 3/16".
So, which is it, and how should I proceed regarding strings and tuning?
Thanks again.

[allenhopkins]

Well, you know, it could be either, and there's really not an obvious way to tell!

The reason I suggested banjo-ukulele, is that there were probably a gazillion banjo-ukes made for every true four-string banjolin or "melody banjo" (another smaller, four-string hybrid). This Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandolin-banjo) on mandolin-banjos discusses the banjolin and its similarity to the banjo-uke. The banjolin often had a larger head than the banjo-ukulele, but scale lengths were similar; the tunings were completely different, with the banjolin tuned in fifths like a mandolin, and the banjo-uke tuned "fourths-and-a-third," often in "re-entrant" tuning, with the fourth string pitched between the first and third strings -- the ol' "my dog has fleas" tuning.

Banjo-ukuleles generally aren't strung with steel strings, as you point out, but I've seen several that have been, especially the Gibson UB's. Just looking at yours, I'd say it looks like a banjo-uke, but IMHO you could string it either way. The Wikipedia article states that John Farris, who patented a version of the banjolin, tuned it GDAE like a mandolin, presumably with steel strings. Banjo-ukuleles are strung with nylon, usually GCEA, with the G fourth string pitched the same as the second string at the third fret.

You might want to buy a set of light-gauge mandolin strings, and a set of soprano ukulele strings, and try both stringings and tunings, to see which sounds best on the instrument, and which you prefer to play. I tried to set up my little Stewart Collegian banjo-uke with steel strings once, and found the intonation was poor (I had it in ukulele tuning); with nylon strings it intonated pretty well (not perfect, but the bridge's uncompensated).

IMHO you have several possibilities for stringing and tuning it. Probably not possible to say for certain how it was designed to be strung and tuned. The tailpiece would accommodate tied-on ukulele strings, loop-end mandolin strings, or ball-end guitar strings. I've never seen one exactly like it.

In your shoes, I'd just go ahead, experiment and explore. Good luck!

[mandroid]

FWIW I have found friction tuners a PIA to get onpitch with steel strings , But..

With Nylon Strings the elasticity of the string makes it easier to Cope with..

I have a rebuilt Banjo-uke I use the lower 3 from CF Martin's Baritone Uke set
for the G,D,A..
and the thin ones ( outside top & Bottom in the sets) From a soprano Uke set for the E.
get 2, E is the first 1 to break, pitched that High.

or F C G D a little less tension.. :whistling:


BTW that screw on the back of the Knob increases the friction to hold the pitch - tension.

[Ed Goist]

Thanks for all the advice and assistance!

I did end-up setting it up as a banjolin with GHS ultra-lights. Here are some "after" pics:

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and below is a short, impromptu video I recorded to provide some idea of how this cool, old instrument sounds (it's recorded on the stinky stock cam/mic of a Dell webcam). If you're interested, I summarized the work I did on the instrument in the video's description.

Thanks again. Oh, and Mandroid is right, the old friction tuners are laughably inadequate for staying on pitch with metal strings! :confused:

_YTS8U-T8-c

[mandroid]

yea, try restringing it in Nylon . Martin's Bari Uke set is an A from a classical set(could use the Low E ),
and the 3rd is Aluminum wound

The friction screw from the back has to be tighter on the high E..

You can either use the Posts on the 'noKnot tail piece' & use a Knot anyhow,
or tie a knot around a Guitar string ball end and trap the ball in the 4 spaces beween the 5 pins

[pops1]

I usually put a cheap set of guitar or uke tuners with gears for steel strings.

[Ed Goist]

It's more of a family heirloom piece (I think it will be displayed and not played by the owner), and I thought the PB strings would look cool.

If I were keeping it to play it, I'd either go with nylon strings or better tuners. Also, these tuners not only slip like crazy, they must also have a ratio of like 1:1! One can go from a half step flat to a half step sharp with the slightest turn of the knob!

[Petrus]

These are apparently the best non-geared tuners available. They have some sort of locking spring mechanism to avoid slippage.

http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Tuning_Machines/Ukulele/Waverly_Ukulele_Friction_Pegs.html

[pops1]

It's more of a family heirloom piece (I think it will be displayed and not played by the owner), and I thought the PB strings would look cool.

If I were keeping it to play it, I'd either go with nylon strings or better tuners. Also, these tuners not only slip like crazy, they must also have a ratio of like 1:1! One can go from a half step flat to a half step sharp with the slightest turn of the knob!

The tuners are 1:1 and usually when old will slip. The screw can be tightened, but usually i take the tuner apart and lightly sand on a flat surface to get some friction back. If it has a leather washer i will roughen that up also. Should be able to get it to at least hold a string for display, but very hard to tune steel strings especially if they are a heavier gauge.

[mandroid]

These are a step up https://www.grotro.com/Grover/UKULELE/Champion-Pegs-Set-of-4
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Tuning_Machines/Ukulele/Grover_Champion_Dulcimer_Uke_Friction_Pegs_Nickel_ set_of_4.html
over the basic friction peg .. I use them on my rebuilt banjo-uke with a mandolin fingerboard
& with a spruce Head . [nicknamed 'Kawlija']

Gotoh has a 4:1 planetary geared tuners for Ukes .. http://www.g-gotoh.com/international/?btp_product=uptuptl
2 models for 2 peg head thicknesses..

the ones Pertrus touts need the peg head holes Chamfered on both sides like for a Flat head screw.
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Tuning_Machines/Ukulele/Waverly_Ukulele_Friction_Pegs.html
that would increase the surface area for Friction.

[morgan]

Not sure if any of this matters if the fate is to be wallhanger and not a player, but here's my two cents based on my limited experience restoring some old banjos. It looks to me like it was born as a banjo uke, but that's no reason not to string it in fifths now. I have a banjo mandolin with a bad neck angle that I have so far not resolved so I strung it with Aqulia nylgut manolin strings (the stretchier strings make the angle problem more or less go away) and it sounds good - gentle but still with a good banjo twang. From your tag, its sounds like you're probably familiar with the Garcia line on one of the Garcia Grisman albums where Grisman plays a steel-string mando banjo and Garcia says something like "that thing sounds X#$&ing obnoxious;" the nylon strings take a lot of that edge off. Aqulia doesn't sell the mandolin set anymore but does sell a uke set tuned in fifths and those would probably work fine for your 4-stringer, although I have not tried them.

If you insist on sticking with steel strings, the old friction tuners are almost guaranteed to drive you crazy. You can replace with planetaries, which I think have a 4:1 ratio and will still be a challenge on a short-scale instrument, to maintain the look, or you can put some geared tuners on for substantially less money - you get "ears" on your peghead but a the ratio will be more like 12:1 or so, I think, so the tuning will be easier

[mandroid]

I suspect it was Soprano Banjo Uke in the first place..

[allenhopkins]

I suspect it was Soprano Banjo Uke in the first place..

Agree; short scale for a banjolin, though not unheard-of.

[mandroid]

Seems The 'Melody Banjo' which was sold and made as a steel 4 string
That I have seen, had the fingerboard extending Over the Head, like 8 string Mandolin Banjos .