View Full Version : Mandolin on sound quality merits only
Fishsticks
Feb-04-2015, 12:24pm
I'm a novice player looking to step up from a Harmony Marquis to a better sounding mandolin. I know there are lots of cost drivers including the craftsmanship of the scroll, collector value and so on, but if you were to factor out all of the non-sound quality factors, and just wanted to look for rich crisp tone quality, in your experience, what are some makes that wowed you for the sound alone. My current aspirations are to play for younger kids (who don't care how bad I am) at home and church. As I improve, I would like to join the music team at church to add some depth and a little country flair to a traditional worship team and perhaps get involved with some of the local bluegrass, square dance groups. My current budget would be around $500, but if the consensus said there was something really worth stretching for in the $1000+ plus range, I'd be willing to save for a while longer. I know you really have to play the individual instrument, but I was hoping your advice could narrow my search. I expect my criteria will steer toward an A model, still not sure on oval vs. f-hole. Thank you all.
lflngpicker
Feb-04-2015, 12:29pm
Check out Kyle Dune at the Mando Shop's J Bovier A5 Special -- radiused fretboard for playability and tone for days. I love mine. Out the door with hardshell case for mid- $700's.
Marvino
Feb-04-2015, 12:36pm
Check out Kentucky 505.
Several years ago had around $1200 to spend on a mandolin. Went to Harry & Jeanie West music store, which had a huge selection. Played about 10 + mandolins, walked out the door with the Kentucky, spending about $500.
Folkmusician.com
Feb-04-2015, 1:31pm
My picks for the best sounding mandolin/best values:
Kentucky KM-150 - yep, it sounds good despite the price
Kentucky KM-505
Eastman MD305
The Loar LM-400
Going up toward $1000, you won't get much better than these until you hit the KM-900.
Really though, you would do just fine with a KM-150. :)
sgrexa
Feb-04-2015, 1:40pm
I hesitate to recommend any mandolins in this price range, but if you get into that 1K range, every used or new Gibson A9 I ever played has been exceptional. Amazing consistency in the 9 series, both A and F styles.
Good luck!
Sean
sunburst
Feb-04-2015, 1:41pm
Quality of sound may well be the first consideration when selecting a mandolin of best value, but don't overlook playability. If the neck, frets, and set up are not up to par, you may not be able to hear the sound because the mandolin is too difficult to play.
For the best value, look for sound and playability.
It is often said that any mandolin can be made to play well with a proper set up, and that is almost true, but there are these things known as MSO (mandolin shaped objects) manufactured cheaply and sold to the unsuspecting, that cannot be made playable without major work. They are to be avoided.
I don't think things are as separable as that. I agree the scroll has no impact, but overall craftsmanship usually goes with sound quality. Great fit and finish, while perhaps predominantly aesthetic issues, usually correspond with great sound.
I also think as a general statement, yes, increasing your budget like that will put some great sounds within reach.
I think you also need to consider, what is your preference as to sound. Great sound with an oval hole is different than great sound with ff holes. Great sound with an arch top is different than great sound with a flat top. What sound do you want?
I am not trying to be obtuse. I am just trying to be of use. I am trying to help you know better what you are looking for, rather than just another thread listing everyone's individual can't miss recommendations.
fscotte
Feb-04-2015, 1:53pm
I'm a novice player looking to step up from a Harmony Marquis to a better sounding mandolin. I know there are lots of cost drivers including the craftsmanship of the scroll, collector value and so on, but if you were to factor out all of the non-sound quality factors, and just wanted to look for rich crisp tone quality, in your experience, what are some makes that wowed you for the sound alone. My current aspirations are to play for younger kids (who don't care how bad I am) at home and church. As I improve, I would like to join the music team at church to add some depth and a little country flair to a traditional worship team and perhaps get involved with some of the local bluegrass, square dance groups. My current budget would be around $500, but if the consensus said there was something really worth stretching for in the $1000+ plus range, I'd be willing to save for a while longer. I know you really have to play the individual instrument, but I was hoping your advice could narrow my search. I expect my criteria will steer toward an A model, still not sure on oval vs. f-hole. Thank you all.
Hmmm. I guess I could recommend someone.... Now I wonder who that would be...
jclover
Feb-04-2015, 2:22pm
Don't know what kind of sound you like best, but I can give you my own opinions. For $1K or less my best sounding mandolin is the Poe Scout - though I did buy it used at that price. My "favorite" changes from day to day, but it may be my best sounding mandolin regardless of price. It has a character that speaks to me, but may not have the same effect on others. Doesn't hurt that it is also one of the easiest playing and best looking mandos that I own. You get an awful lot for your money with a flattop, though if you are heavy into bluegrass, it is not the weapon of choice.
onassis
Feb-04-2015, 2:23pm
Check out Kyle Dune at the Mando Shop's J Bovier A5 Special -- radiused fretboard for playability and tone for days. I love mine. Out the door with hardshell case for mid- $700's.
Or, instead of the A5 Special, the A5 Tradition, out the door w/ gig bag for $500. Same instrument, less binding.
jaycat
Feb-04-2015, 2:31pm
. . . I am not trying to be obtuse. I am just trying to be of use. . . ..
Great couplet. Does that come from somewhere? (or can I steal it for lyrics?)
Mandosurf
Feb-04-2015, 2:50pm
Sub $500, J. Bovier A5 tradition from the Mando Shop! Every time. My bovier A5 sounded deeper and louder than my friends kentucky km950.. Seriously. Had to sell it to fund my new Gibson F9, and I already miss that lil A5.. I bought the A5 tradition after comparing it with an eastman 805v that Kyle had.. Much deeper, fuller tone, to my ears anyway. Good luck and enjoy the hunt!
I know you really have to play the individual instrument, but I was hoping your advice could narrow my search.
You really do. Or at least hear a lot of instruments. Go to festivals concerts and jams and of course music stores. Listen to a lot of videos on line. Get a feeling for what you like and why.
I expect my criteria will steer toward an A model, still not sure on oval vs. f-hole. Thank you all.
The ff hole is prized by the bluegrassers. With good reason. Its a more percussive, focused, punchy sound. The oval hole is more "legato" to my ear, and more blendy.
The difference is perceptible, but not overwhelming. An oval will work in bluegrass just fine, but perhaps not quite as well as the ff holes, and the ff holes sound great in all kinds of music, but sometimes an oval hole is just better at "playing well with others".
So it depends. Listen to and play both and see what you like.
Randi Gormley
Feb-04-2015, 4:51pm
I'll toss in a suggestion for a strad-o-lin, a lot of sound for a reasonable price. unless you want to buy new. they sound much better than you'd expect.
CelticDude
Feb-04-2015, 5:00pm
A bit out of your budget, unless you get lucky with a used instrument, but you should at least play a Collings mandolin. I knew when I first played an MT that this was the mandolin sound that I wanted. Took me almost 2 years to save up for it, but it was worth it. Only now, 6 years later, is MAS rearing its head. And I don't see myself getting rid of the MT. I do see myself getting another Collings.
The Gibson A9 was mentioned. A friend of mine has one, and it also sounded quite nice. I might have gone for that had I played one before a Collings.
Markus
Feb-04-2015, 5:03pm
There is no good way to solve the ff vs. oval hole issue without putting a couple in your hands and having someone else play those very same instruments with you as listener. If I didn't play a lot of bluegrass and farmer's markets, I would likely have gone with an oval.
If I were you, I would try to save for the closer to $1k mark as there get to be a lot of options in that range, it becomes much more a buyer's market.
I found I was less impressed by what I could get locally of the `flavor of the day' what I read online and when I got mine and chose something no one mentioned as the whole soundbox vibrated like one of the higher end mandolins on the wall and the playability matched them as well. No, it didn't have the perfect tone of the high end mandolins but it played soft, loud, and everything very nicely.
As the luthiers on the thread pointed out, setup is a huge factor in all this. Whatever you get, get it from a place that really takes their time doing setup as the playability difference is clear.
I think it's pretty hard to go wrong with a used Collings MT or Gibson A, though even used both go for slightly more than you're looking at. That said, both would be lovely lifetime instruments that take quite a lot of work to outgrow.
The first thing that popped into my head was a Kentucky KM 900. Those run about $1k new, you can probably find one used for less if you are patient. To me, there isn't a lot of value to be found in "mid range mandolins." Until you get to the KM 900, I really don't think there is much of an upgrade in the mid range Kentucky or Eastman lines. To put it another way, a KM 150 sounds as good as any of the other, higher priced Kentucky's, until you get to the KM 900, which is, IMO a very solid step up from the KM 150. By the same token, I am not sure there is much upside to mid range Eastman mandolins. I have played 305s that sound as good as their upper level instruments.
If you don't have to have F holes, there is a lot of value in used Mid Missouri/Big Muddy mandolins. I saw a used Mid Missouri go for under $300 on Ebay last week. That is a lot of mandolin for the money.
So in the sub $500 market I would target either a new KM 150 or an Eastman 305 (to my ears there is less variation in Kentucky's, so it is somewhat of a safer choice) purchased from a reputable mandolin dealer or a used Mid Mo/BM.
If you hold out and raise your budget to $1k, a lot of doors open up:
New Kentucky KM 900 (Again bought from a real mandolin dealer, not a box)
New Big Muddy (The prices on these seem to have risen recently; I don't see them as the values they once were.)
Used Breedloves (I don't know much about Breedloves; their model designations are confusing to me.)
Used Gibson A9 (Tremendous mandolins, but they don't come up often. If you see one in your budget, pull the trigger.)
Vintage Gibson As (These have the potential to be incredible mandolins, but there are things you need to look out for.)
Used Weber Hyalite (My mandolin teacher had one of these; they are nice "no frills" mandolins.)
Many others I am just getting you started.
Great couplet. Does that come from somewhere? (or can I steal it for lyrics?)
No I just stumbled into it. As I wrote it I thought, "oh that's cute".
Steal it, use it, someday I'll hear it in a song and know....
onassis
Feb-04-2015, 6:51pm
The second someone says they have a a $500 budget, the suggestions for instruments costing 1-2K start pouring in. Never ceases to amaze.:)
People sure do love that ham sandwich.
jclover
Feb-04-2015, 6:58pm
The second someone says they have a a $500 budget, the suggestions for instruments costing 1-2K start pouring in. Never ceases to amaze.:)
People sure do love that ham sandwich.
Now, he did say he could save for a $1K+ mandolin. Not saying I don't suggest the occasional ham sandwhich, it is hard to resist! In this case however, most suggestions have been pretty reasonable, IMO.
onassis
Feb-04-2015, 7:03pm
Not critiquing, so much as observing. Just amazing that it never, ever, EVER fails.
Not critiquing, so much as observing. Just amazing that it never, ever, EVER fails.
I am a member of several music-related forums. There is this tendency with all musical instruments (guitars, basses, cellos) but more-so with regard to mandolins because most beginners don't really know how much a good mandolin costs. There are plenty of sub $300 guitars that I can recommend, but until the Kentucky KM 150 received a serious quality upgrade a couple of years ago, there was no mandolin in the sub $300 range I could feel good about recommending. With mandolins there is also a very serious jump in quality at around $1k. You ought to look a cello forums. You ask for a sub $2k cello and people start recommending $4k+ instruments because there is a huge jump in the quality of cellos between sub $2k "student grade" cellos and higher quality instruments that start around $2500-$3000.
I know your dilemma. I compared everything under $1000 at my local dealer - Loar, Kentucky, Eastman and used models. I ended up with an Eastman oval hole because I liked the sound best. I play primarily at home and my interest is old time and Celtic tunes. You could just as easily go with an Eastman f-hole if you are into Bluegrass. Everyone has different perceptions of what sounds best. For me the Eastman's, no matter the model, sounded best among the choices. All were set up equally well, which is critical where mandolins are concerned. What really helped in my choice was to have someone else play the instrument while I listened so I could hear what others would hear.
Good luck with your choice.
Don
I think one of the issues, in general, is that we don't know where the OP is coming from.
My budget is XXXX could mean, I have no more money than that to spend, it could mean I have studied the situation and that is how much I am willing to spend, it could mean I have an idea what quality of instrument I want and that budget covers it, it might mean I have no idea how much money buys how much mandolin and so I am starting here, it could mean I saw something I liked for that much so I picked that much.
I think it is helpful to share what an incremental dollar above the stated budget will buy. Its always good to know not only what you can get, but what perhaps you can't get. If nothing else to feel good about your decision.
I know I always ask, when buying something - "tell me why I don't want to spend this extra and get the super thingy". I mean a buck is a buck, but especially when my budget is kind of arbitrary, I like to know what I am missing.
mandobassman
Feb-04-2015, 10:42pm
The Kentucky KM900 is a fine mandolin indeed, but don't overlook just how good the J Bovier A5 Special and A5 Tradition mandolins are. In my opinion, they're every bit as good as the KM 900 for a few hundred dollars less. I have played many fine mandolin over the years but I really love my JB A5 Special.
Petrus
Feb-05-2015, 4:04am
I often wonder if anyone has tried a blind test. Go into a reputable mando shop and have someone there play a selection of 4-5 properly set up instruments, of comparable range, while your back is turned, but not tell you in advance which one is being played at which time. Find out if your ears are good enough to tell which one is being played, or what type (f hole vs. round hole.) Has anyone tried this?
Petrus
Feb-05-2015, 6:50am
Until you get to the KM 900, I really don't think there is much of an upgrade in the mid range Kentucky or Eastman lines. To put it another way, a KM 150 sounds as good as any of the other, higher priced Kentucky's, until you get to the KM 900, which is, IMO a very solid step up from the KM 150.
There are design differences in addition to sound differences though. The KM-150's fretboard ends rather abruptly on the square. The KM-380, for instance, has an extension and a nicer join at the neck heel, more like a high-end instrument. I can't speak for the others, but the higher-end models tend to be better constructed. Though all from China, they're not all built in the same factory by the same people, afaik.
Fishsticks
Feb-05-2015, 8:43am
Great response from all of you and plenty of homework for me to go on. Thank you.
I often wonder if anyone has tried a blind test. Go into a reputable mando shop and have someone there play a selection of 4-5 properly set up instruments, of comparable range, while your back is turned, but not tell you in advance which one is being played at which time. Find out if your ears are good enough to tell which one is being played, or what type (f hole vs. round hole.) Has anyone tried this?
I have done what amounts to that, with several mandolin friends at a party, both oval holes and ff holes represented, and we did blind hearings. And I could tell. Pretty much. But I wouldn't call it scientific, with the amount of adult beverages we might as well have been testing beer with music in the background.
I can really tell when playing. Especially the focus. You can aim an ff hole mandolin.
The one time I was fooled was in Picker's Supply in Fredericksburg Virginia. I walked in and heard what sounded like the most beautiful oval hole, and it turned out someone was playing a Collings MT. I was very surprised.
mandroid
Feb-05-2015, 4:22pm
FWIW even lookalikes can each sound a little different Because it Wood.
like a litter of puppies, each has a Personality .. one will have you bringing it Home.
darrylicshon
Feb-05-2015, 4:58pm
When play my loar600 first, i am happy with the sound, but when i put it down and grab my J Bovier i hear a big difference, most of the time i don't go back to the loar.
Petrus
Feb-05-2015, 8:30pm
Oval vs. f hole might be pretty easy to discern, but I'm wondering if someone could tell the difference between, say, a Kentucky or an Eastman of the same type.
The important part, as far as I am concerned, is the playing. Determining the perfect mandolin, getting it at the perfect price, wondering afterwards if you got a good deal, wondering if it will keep its value - all of that is secondary. In my opinion get something you like at the time and play the potatoes out of it until you get something else.
We spend so much mental effort and so much time, fixin' to make music that we almost discount making the actual music.
Perfect is the enemy of good. Get something good enough at a price you can afford and don't look back. Get on to the important part. Its not going to be your last mandolin anyway.
Bob Clark
Feb-05-2015, 9:59pm
If you are giving some thought to a flat top, I'd also check out Terry Majewski's Crystal Forest mandolins (NFI). He builds ff and oval holes and is great to deal with. His prices are reasonable and his mandolins are gorgeous. Mine has become my most-played mandolin. I love the feel, sound, the whole package. Here's his URL http://crystalforestmandolins.com/index.html
To those who have asked about blind taste tests, I have conducted a couple of experiments where I ask my wife to subjectively grade various instruments without looking at them. She preferred my varnished Gibson F5 to a Kentucky KM 1500, but she said it was closer than the price indicates. The Gibson was richer, fuller, louder and less piercing. However, she doesn't always pick the most expensive instrument. She actually preferred the tone of a Martin OM-15M (about a $1200 guitar) to the tone of my Goodall TrRD (Herringbone dread with an adi top with braz RW back and sides, about a $6k guitar). Most everyone else who played or heard the Goodall said it was the best guitar they ever played/heard, so take that for what it is worth.
jaycat
Feb-06-2015, 12:04pm
No I just stumbled into it. As I wrote it I thought, "oh that's cute".
Steal it, use it, someday I'll hear it in a song and know....
Many thanks! Just let me know where to send the royalty checks . . .
JeffD
Feb-06-2015, 12:09pm
If you are giving some thought to a flat top, I'd also check out Terry Majewski's Crystal Forest mandolins (NFI). He builds ff and oval holes and is great to deal with. His prices are reasonable and his mandolins are gorgeous. Mine has become my most-played mandolin. I love the feel, sound, the whole package. Here's his URL http://crystalforestmandolins.com/index.html
They are beautiful. I have not ever played one.
JeffD
Feb-06-2015, 12:11pm
Many thanks! Just let me know where to send the royalty checks . . .
I know people that come up with that kind of stuff all the time. To me it just looks like they stumble into it. I can see not technique for couplets or rhymes or rhythmic phrases, they just do it. It just comes out of them.
Bob Clark
Feb-06-2015, 5:01pm
They are beautiful. I have not ever played one.
Hi Jeff,
South Jersey is sort-of between Upstate NY and DC (if you stay to the east, anyway). Let me know if you're ever in the area and you can give mine a try. I'm 15 minutes from the Delaware Memorial Bridge.
Bob
Bob byk
Feb-06-2015, 6:30pm
My opinion - I was looking at the Kentucky (150?) vs Eastman 305. I wanted the Kentucky, it was less expensive. Both were great instruments. I never played an instrument. I only strummed them. The Eastman "spoke" to me. It came alive. To my dismay I had to spend the extra cash.
fatt-dad
Feb-06-2015, 7:22pm
The first thing that came to my mind was an army-navy type mandolin. A Big Muddy (or predecessor, Mid Missouri) or used Flatiron. These mandolins (especially the discontinued Flatiron) are made for light-gauge strings and are nice for folky, strum-along, church stuff.
Arch-top mandolins cost more to build, being (typically) Asian the are often less than these flat-top mandolins. With a good setup though, why not? I think the 15-fret, f-hole, a-model mandolins are very versatile and cost effective. I like solid wood and, "hand-carved," especially for the top.
No idea about Kentucky, J.Bovier, The Loar or Eastman brands though. They may all be nice, but you don't really need to pay for extra binding, or gold hardware, or peghead inlays, etc. That is unless you like that look. . .
f-d
Mandobart
Feb-07-2015, 12:30am
My friend Sonny Morris builds mandolins for tone and playability, not bling. However, they have a simple elegance and are beautifully made. The craftsmanship is great, hand built here in the US. No fancy inlay or binding, but you can't go wrong with his mandolins. There are a couple in the classifieds right now. NFI.
roysboy
Feb-07-2015, 3:50am
My picks for the best sounding mandolin/best values:
Kentucky KM-150 - yep, it sounds good despite the price
Kentucky KM-505
Eastman MD305
The Loar LM-400
Going up toward $1000, you won't get much better than these until you hit the KM-900.
Really though, you would do just fine with a KM-150. :)
I gotta go with Robert on this . I have a new version Kentucky KM-150 that still amazes me after nearly 2 years and less than 300.00 invested. Terrific fit and finish ..excellent set-up , n'ary a buzz or dead note to be found on it. Records beautifully too . I bought it a nice rectangular hard-shell case for Xmas . In my humble opinion , once you've played one of these new KM-150's you'll have a good point of reference for any other modestly priced brands or models . Hard to beat for the price . Good luck .
Fishsticks
Mar-03-2015, 1:01pm
Thanks for all of the tips. As I look around at these recommendations on the auction/classified sites, I see a number of names in the vintage market that look interesting in my <$500 target, Martin, Walthari, American made Harmony's, various European makes, etc. I know there are a million pitfalls in buying old instruments, but any good advice on quality vintage brands and models to look at in general assuming they are in unbroken, straight, complete condition and get a profesdional setup?
roysboy
Mar-03-2015, 1:29pm
Thanks for all of the tips. As I look around at these recommendations on the auction/classified sites, I see a number of names in the vintage market that look interesting in my <$500 target, Martin, Walthari, American made Harmony's, various European makes, etc. I know there are a million pitfalls in buying old instruments, but any good advice on quality vintage brands and models to look at in general assuming they are in unbroken, straight, complete condition and get a profesdional setup?
Unless you are looking for something "collectible" or as some sort of investment , I think you'd be wise to just " jump in the fire " with something affordable and playable ( set up well ) . You'll be better equipped to know what you want exactly once you determine what you like or don't like about that first inexpensive purchase . Again , I'd highly recommend the incredibly reasonable Kentucky Km-150 ( 300.00 or less used ) as a starter or even intermediate instrument with terrific sound
Hi Jeff,
South Jersey is sort-of between Upstate NY and DC (if you stay to the east, anyway). Let me know if you're ever in the area and you can give mine a try. I'm 15 minutes from the Delaware Memorial Bridge.
Bob
I may take you up on that. I cross that bridge from time to time to visit family in Jersey.
These mandolins (especially the discontinued Flatiron) are made for light-gauge strings and are nice for folky, strum-along, church stuff.
Let me respectfully disagree. Those pancake flatirons don't need baby-ing. I have played quite a few, strung with the strings that came with, and strung with J74s, and the GHS close equivalent, and they can be cannons. And they do melody really well. Not bluegrassy sounding, not high lonesome, but authoritative and able to get their own job done well.