New Harmony Tenor Day - string question

[Verne Andru]

So my [immediate] tenor quest was resolved yesterday with the score of a minty Harmony Monterey Leader like this one:

129643

The number stamped inside says 3687H950. The H950 refers to the model number - anyone know what the other numbers mean?

It appears to have pretty close to original strings, so my question has to do with guages. It's a 23", like the Ibanez, so I looked at those specs and it suggests D'Addario J66 Strings Gauges 10-14-22-32. Does this seem about right? Main difference is the Harmony is a carved archtop and the Ibanez is a flattop but that shouldn't make a difference?

Mine is missing the pickguard. It's not really necessary but would bring this back into "collectible" territory if it was complete.

[fox]

You might be interested in this http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?106376-Monterey-Leader-950 this http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?106410-Warped-top-on-Harmony-guitar and this http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?106625-Tenor-jam-on-my-62-Monteray

[Verne Andru]

Wow! What a ton of work. Love the look of it and seems to sound fine in your video.

IMHO an archtop build will always seem a bit 'thinner' than a flattop when played normally, but where they really shine is when you hammer the crap out of them. Gibson come up with this design so acoustic guitars could be heard in an acoustic ensemble. It was the jazz era and those instruments were played hard. That's where they really shine - to my ear the tone doesn't get compressed like it does on a flattop that's hammered really hard.

What did you use for string guages?

Not sure what's on this one but it's happiest tuned GDAE. I'm looking to go CGDA and these strings won't get me there.

While Harmonies are derided in general, this one appears to be a 'good' one that has been pampered. Neck is straight, lots of life in the frets, machines work well, solid neck joint and all the pieces are holding together just fine.

Mine has a bit of 'warping' on the top, but that's not a concern. IMHO you want to keep the section under the bridge as flexible as possible. The way an archtop works is the strings pass the vibration through the bridge to the top and if the top is constricted the sound will get strangled. I would suggest you try removing those splints you have holding the 2 sides of the F-holes together and listen to how it sounds then. Just my 2 cents.

I didn't pay near what it would cost me for a new Ibanez, Kala or Blueridge, so I'm happy. Mine sounds quite good to my ear.

[Verne Andru]

You might be interested in this http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?106376-Monterey-Leader-950 this http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?106410-Warped-top-on-Harmony-guitar and this http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?106625-Tenor-jam-on-my-62-Monteray

And, FWIW, I've found archtops sound best 'to my ear' when they are not strung really tightly. What I mean by that is - my Loar archtop guitar [L5 knockoff] sounds best tuned to E flat - down a semi-tone. Growing up I found this wasn't an uncommon tuning for the Gibson archtops - or even D - and a capo. They get too thin to my ear when strung tight.

[fox]

I did remove the braces but two weeks later it just bent up again & it did not sound noticeably different!
I have been tuned in GDAE for some time now .14p 22w 32w & a massive 50w but I might go back to CGDA.
The best improvement was fitting a pick up!
I love showing the guitar to folk but to be honest compared to a bluridge it plays pretty poorly - I have plans to change over the soundboard one day but the original one looks so cool...

[acousticphd]

I have a similar H950 Tenor, I think ~1970. There should almost always be a visible Harmony date stamp (eg, S-66 or F-70).

These Harmonies can be fun, but at the same time have a lot of limitations. If it has a "straight" neck (which to me means good angle, no more than moderate relief, and no rise/hump at the body), you are doing way better than average. But there is no comparison to a carved, spruce-topped Gibson, and probably even a Loar, as the Harmony has a thin, molded/pressed, and heavily braced solid hardwood top. They certainly look (and sound) overbraced, but I'm not sure the arch on such a thin top could be maintained with the braces removed.

With CGDA tuning, I have used and would recommend heavier bass strings, perhaps .035w/.025w/.014/.010.
For GDAE, maybe something like .048w/.035w/.022w/.013. I converted my archtop tenor to an 8-string OM, which I'm not sure suits it best. To my ear, maybe because of the thin hardwood top, these guitars may be better suited to the higher tuning (CGDA), but of course you have to do some test-driving.

[acousticphd]

Forgot to add:

Harmony archtops, at least the vast majority of them, were not carved, but pressed/molded.
Although a few of their archtop models had spruce tops (eg, the Patrician, Master, and some Montereys), I have never yet seen a version of a Harmony archtop tenor with a spruce top, although perhaps in much earlier years maybe they did make some (?).

[Skip23]

On my tenor, which also has a 23inch scale and is tuned GDAE, I've been using John Pearse Tenor strings lately after shifting over from buying individual strings. I think they sound great - the gauges on them are .013, .020w, .030w, .042w and I haven't found the G floppy at all (which is a constant battle on my tenor banjo).

[Verne Andru]

I have a similar H950 Tenor, I think ~1970. There should almost always be a visible Harmony date stamp (eg, S-66 or F-70).

These Harmonies can be fun, but at the same time have a lot of limitations. If it has a "straight" neck (which to me means good angle, no more than moderate relief, and no rise/hump at the body), you are doing way better than average. But there is no comparison to a carved, spruce-topped Gibson, and probably even a Loar, as the Harmony has a thin, molded/pressed, and heavily braced solid hardwood top. They certainly look (and sound) overbraced, but I'm not sure the arch on such a thin top could be maintained with the braces removed.

With CGDA tuning, I have used and would recommend heavier bass strings, perhaps .035w/.025w/.014/.010.
For GDAE, maybe something like .048w/.035w/.022w/.013. I converted my archtop tenor to an 8-string OM, which I'm not sure suits it best. To my ear, maybe because of the thin hardwood top, these guitars may be better suited to the higher tuning (CGDA), but of course you have to do some test-driving.

I guess I got lucky with this one. The neck is straight with a bit of a hump at the 16th to 20th frets but I've been able to level them out leaving just a bit of relief from nut to heel. The angle is good so when the bridge is bottomed out the strings fret-out. I'm reshaping the top of the bridge to get rid of the string channels that have found their way into it over the years.

I don't think this would work very well as an 8 string - just too much metal. I picked up a D'Addario J66 pack and a bunch of various guages in singles and play around until I get CGDA working properly.

My interest in a tenor actually stems from my 5-string mando. I realized the low 4 strings are tenor/mandola tuning while the high 4 strings are mandolin. I've got the mandolin side under control but want a tenor to learn the CGDA tuning in isolation then carry that learning back to the 5-string. Not looking at this as a serious performance piece, but it does have some pretty cool tones in it. As long as I love it for what it is there should be no disappointments.

Best laid plans of men and mice, I know...

[Verne Andru]

Okay, got her cleaned up, setup and strung up. Went with C-32, G-24, D-20 and A-14 and tuned CGDA.

These tuning machines are pretty amazing. Wasn't sure I could get the D and A to pitch without something going POP, but we got there and it's holding tune rock solid.

As noted above, I did a fret level/dress as well as getting the bridge to sit flat on the body and got rid of the deep string channels in the top. Soft-ish wood - could be rosewood but I wouldn't be surprised if it was something else. Action is super low now making it very easy to play all the way up the neck without any buzzing.

How does it sound?

Like an archtop tenor to my ears. Tenor is tuned between guitar and mandolin, so there's no deep bass or high-highs but there are some lovely tones in the middle. True to being an archtop the notes pop out with a bell-like chime then fade with a fast decay. Moving the picking hand between neck and bridge yields a wonderful palette of different tonalities that really sing with open string chords. I find it to be as loud as any of my other acoustic instruments - but quite a bit different in a good way. Would fit right in doing la pompe at a gypsy jazz club.

No date code found yet, but a few anomalies inside. There's dried glue oozing out around the purfling and quite a bit that's run down the neck block from bottom to top, suggesting someone had the back off and flooded the neck joint etc. with glue as a preventative repair. Neck doesn't look like it's ever been off. The nut, which came perfectly cut already, appears to be bone, so that would have been done since factory.

She looks nice, plays and sounds great, didn't cost much and didn't take much to get up and running, so I'm a happy man!

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll try and get some pics organized.

[fox]

That doesent sound quite right with the string gauges, I don't think you can tune a .14 to A or a .20 to a D?
I found a standard .10 difficult enough to get the A - I settled on .36 .24 .14 .09.
On paper a .10 gives a more even spread across the bridge but I find the .09 sounds ok and last longer with my playing style.
However yours has a thick layer of oil based paint covering the soundboard so it is going to be differclt to get the top performing well!
I have lost count of the hours I put into playing with the strings but like I said a basic pick up makes all the difference.

I almost bought another one with a spruce top off EBay but they fetch quite high prices in the Uk, even a very poor ply top one will get $350.

[Verne Andru]

As I said, I got it tuned to CGDA with those guages, although I did thing something was going to break considering the tension put on by the D and A strings. I just checked the tuning and after it sitting for the night it's only lost a couple cents across the strings, so it's holding fine.

I played the tenor plus my 000, Loar archtop and mandolin one after another for my son after I got it all strung up. His comment was that, lack of bass aside, it was pretty much as loud [bit quieter] than the others.

Based on what you and others are saying it seems I got a 'good' one and the evidence is that it's had some love and work over the years, so I consider myself lucky.

[fox]

Well you have managed to do something many of us can't do with a .10 let alone a .14! However your .20 & .14 are around double the tension of the .32 & the .24
On a 23" scale a .14 tuned to A will be around 45 lbs of tension but the .32 will only be around 22 lb!
If that works for you then that is great but perhaps you could try a more even tension across the bridge to see how that sounds.
I can check the exact tension when I get home but I think I am right?

[Verne Andru]

Well you have managed to do something many of us can't do with a .10 let alone a .14! However your .20 & .14 are around double the tension of the .32 & the .24
On a 23" scale a .14 tuned to A will be around 45 lbs of tension but the .32 will only be around 22 lb!
If that works for you then that is great but perhaps you could try a more even tension across the bridge to see how that sounds.
I can check the exact tension when I get home but I think I am right?

As I noted, I will probably move to different guages for the D and A, but at the moment the .14 and .20 tuned to pitch and play fine. There's no doubt there's a ton of tension from those 2 strings, but they're working and the instrument is holding up very well.

But, any further input you care to offer is graciously accepted.

[acousticphd]

As I said, I got it tuned to CGDA with those guages, although I did thing something was going to break considering the tension put on by the D and A strings. I just checked the tuning and after it sitting for the night it's only lost a couple cents across the strings, so it's holding fine.

I played the tenor plus my 000, Loar archtop and mandolin one after another for my son after I got it all strung up. His comment was that, lack of bass aside, it was pretty much as loud [bit quieter] than the others.

Based on what you and others are saying it seems I got a 'good' one and the evidence is that it's had some love and work over the years, so I consider myself lucky.


I think the input some of us others ARE offering is that using such heavy strings for the D and A is maybe not advisable. No need to introduce unnecessary relief into a neck that is fortunately straight. At the same time, you could go heavier on the C/G courses and amp up your bass a bit.

[Verne Andru]

I think the input some of us others ARE offering is that using such heavy strings for the D and A is maybe not advisable. No need to introduce unnecessary relief into a neck that is fortunately straight. At the same time, you could go heavier on the C/G courses and amp up your bass a bit.

Yes, thank you. I do get the advice offered and will move in that direction as the project progresses.

All I am saying is that after buying a bunch of string guages, this was the first combo I tried and it tunes to CGDA, plays and sounds nice.

[fox]

Here is a recommended heavy string set for a 23" scale tenor guitar tuned CGDA....
A .10 p = 23.75lb
D .15 p = 23.78lb
G .22 w = 25.92lb
C .34 w = 22.26lb

your present set.....

A .14 p = 45.65lb
D .20 p = 42.79lb
G .24 w = 27.08lb
C .32 w = 19.38lb.

[Verne Andru]

Some pics...

12972912973012973112973212973312973412973512973612 9737129738

In the 7th pic there is a blotch in the middle of the neck. I couldn't figure out what could have caused it at first. The guy who sold me the guitar gave me "it's" stand - the one it's lived on for the last umpty-dump years and a real hippie-ish denim carry case. When I put the guitar in the stand I realized the rubber from the stand that held the neck had interacted chemically with whatever finish the factory put on. So the good news is the damage is only to the finish. Anybody have any suggestions on the best way to smooth this out?

[Verne Andru]

Here is a recommended heavy string set for a 23" scale tenor guitar tuned CGDA....
A .10 p = 23.75lb
D .15 p = 23.78lb
G .22 w = 25.92lb
C .34 w = 22.26lb

your present set.....

A .14 p = 45.65lb
D .20 p = 42.79lb
G .24 w = 27.08lb
C .32 w = 19.38lb.

Perfect. Thanks so much!

[Verne Andru]

Here is a recommended heavy string set for a 23" scale tenor guitar tuned CGDA....
A .10 p = 23.75lb
D .15 p = 23.78lb
G .22 w = 25.92lb
C .34 w = 22.26lb

your present set.....

A .14 p = 45.65lb
D .20 p = 42.79lb
G .24 w = 27.08lb
C .32 w = 19.38lb.

Could you do this for GDAE tuning please?

[Verne Andru]

Here's an unprocessed MP3 recorded into my Zoom H4. I don't know tenor yet, so I'm just tossing out some chords.

129742

[fox]

That is a lovely example, very good condition indeed!

Normal set in GDAE

E .13p = 21.63lb
A .19p = 21.93lb
D .30w = 21.49lb
G .45w = 22.16lb

Heavy set

E .14p = 25.63lb
A .20w = 25.21lb
D .32w = 24.46lb
G .48w = 24.42lb

[Verne Andru]

That is a lovely example, very good condition indeed!

Normal set in GDAE

E .13p = 21.63lb
A .19p = 21.93lb
D .30w = 21.49lb
G .45w = 22.16lb

Heavy set

E .14p = 25.63lb
A .20w = 25.21lb
D .32w = 24.46lb
G .48w = 24.42lb

Thanks so much. Is this effectively "octave mandolin" tuning - so it's lower than CGDA?

[Verne Andru]

Fox: A thought on yours that may or not be crazy.

Working with archtops I've found the closer the bridge is to sitting in the middle of the lower bout of the soundboard, the louder and fuller the tone. One of the benefits of a 12-fret-to-the-body design is that, in most cases, the bridge lands right where it should for optimum sound performance. On some builds this can become boomy or boxy, so part of what a 14-fret-to-the-body does is it moves the frequencies up the spectrum and usually loose body in the process.

These Harmony's are 14-fret-to-the-body and are basically a tenor neck on a guitar body - so I'm not sure much optimization was put into their design. As a consequence they tend more toward the mid-range frequencies [great in an ensemble setting] but do lose some fullness and body as a consequence.

That was all a round-about way of suggesting you could try moving the bridge toward the tailpiece so it's in the center of the lower bout and see what that does to the tone. If it helps you could always refret it to be a 12-fret-to-the-body which would change the scale to somewhere around 25".

I poked my finger inside the f-holes on the Harmony and the Loar and - without the benefit of measuring or in-depth analysis - it appears the bracings are not that different in style and girth from each other.

[fox]

I listened to your sound check, you obviously have talent but my best advice would be to keep an eye out for a Blueridge BR40 as that will blow you away compared to the harmony :)

[fox]

I tend to stick to CGDA on my shorter scale tenors (20" & 21") & use GDAE on my bigger body tenors like the blueridge & the harmony, I even have a huge 6 string Dreadnought body with a 23" scale tenor neck fitted.
I find the bigger body volume makes better use of the G string but to be honest the harmony is a show piece for me.
I am not sure how a 25" scale would work with GDAE certainly would not work with CGDA as there are no commercial string to get the A.
The great John Lawlor uses a standard 6 sting guitar with a cut down neck but he uses different tuning in F I think?
Here he is .... http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?90215-John-Lawlor-how-a-tenor-guitar-can-and-should-be-played

[Verne Andru]

I listened to your sound check, you obviously have talent but my best advice would be to keep an eye out for a Blueridge BR40 as that will blow you away compared to the harmony :)

Thanks and I will. Problem I have is there are virtually no tenors of any type here! The fact this one showed up and I was able to snag it is very rare. I ordered an Ibanez last year and finally cancelled after a 9 month backorder. And that was through Music123. I'm interested in the Kala - shorter scale appeals to me - but just heard from our version of Guitar Center [country's largest chain] that they don't stock the Kala so it needs to be special ordered, then it's a 5 week plus delivery time. The Harmony will do for now.

This is the one I'd really like to get my hands on

129751

http://elderly.com/new_instruments/items/018TE40.htm

[Chip Stewart]

Thanks and I will. Problem I have is there are virtually no tenors of any type here! The fact this one showed up and I was able to snag it is very rare. I ordered an Ibanez last year and finally cancelled after a 9 month backorder. And that was through Music123. I'm interested in the Kala - shorter scale appeals to me - but just heard from our version of Guitar Center [country's largest chain] that they don't stock the Kala so it needs to be special ordered, then it's a 5 week plus delivery time. The Harmony will do for now.

This is the one I'd really like to get my hands on

129751

http://elderly.com/new_instruments/items/018TE40.htm

A Martin O-18T is my holy grail of tenor guitars. Unfortunately, a used Martin O-18T in good condition will sell for $3000. That's way out of my price range. The Blueridge tenor guitars are affordable Martin O-18T clones. I love my Blueridge BR-60T, but if I ever win the lottery I'm buying a Martin O-18T.

[Verne Andru]

A Martin O-18T is my holy grail of tenor guitars. Unfortunately, a used Martin O-18T in good condition will sell for $3000.

That's cheap. That Martin was selling for around $4000 when I looked a week or so ago. Must have just sold since.

This Collings is super sweet as well:

129778
http://www.collingsguitars.com/Instruments/?ID=90

After those 2, everything is a Harmony!

[Verne Andru]

Restrung her to:

C - .36
G - .24
D - .15
A - .10

She's much happier and balanced this way - thanks a ton for the input, folks!

I did a bit of nut work and, yes, it is a bone nut. I doubt Harmony would have used bone on department store guitars so I'm leaning toward a pro working on her in the past. Solid, resonant voice that just sings!

When I was in my guitar store getting the strings the manager came over - he was the one who told me about not being able to get the Kala yesterday - with a small-ish guitar case saying he wanted to show me something. Inside was this sweet little Martin tenor! Sounded great. Felt like a much smaller scale than the Harmony - maybe 19"? It was one of the small, mahogany ones. I am tempted [I think that was the point] but it is quite "used" and doesn't come cheap.

I did notice a distinct difference in tone between the Martin and the Harmony. The Martin sounds like a very sweet flat-top with a round sound-hole and the Harmony sounds like a very sweet archtop with f-holes. I think some people expect an archtop to sound like a flattop, but they are very different. Their build's are completely different and the mechanism for activating the sound board is very different. All things considered, the Harmony sounds as I expected a tenor archtop to sound.

But I do thing I got very lucky and stumbled into a really nice one in great repair and condition.

[fox]

I think the Martin T15 & T17 are the all solid mahogany models made from the 1930s until the 60s, some have a short 21" scale.
However I have read that the mahogany models can be quite subtle and quiet players.
I have also read, that none of the vintage Martins should be bought for their sound alone as most modern tenors are equally as good if not quite a lot better sounding!

I have been after a Vintage Martin for the last year, especially the T17, as I like the mellow hardwood sound & I have plenty of loud tenors anyway.
They don't come up very often where I live and are crazy prices when they do!

[bruce.b]

For me, if I was interested in a flat top tenor, I'd get the new Collings over a vintage Martin. IMO it's much nicer than an O-18T. Higher quality build, better neck playability and sounds better. If I ever did this I'd see if I could get them to build me one with a shorter scale, 21 to 22 inches.

I'm more interested in archtop tenors and am perfectly content with my Herb Taylor. So much so that when I get another tenor it will be a custom one from Herb. Probably this spring sometime?

[Verne Andru]

I thought he said the Martin was a T10, but I wasn't paying very close attention to anything other than the guitar.

I do like the shorter scale as some mandolin fingering is a real stretch on a 23" neck. The new Kala is 21" and I'd like to give it a go.

When we start talking about the kind of money Collings want's we're into the realm of custom builders. Shelly Parks is in my city and if I could get a 21" Selmer-style from her for the same money, I'd probably go that way.

Unless I could find one of these...

130092

I found some old Harmony catalogs and this is what Harmony had to say:

Famous Harmony Monterey Leader & Monterey Tenor Guitar

Slim-Thin Uniform Feel Steel Reinforced Necks

Know everywhere for it's dependability, attractive color, finish and value. Has given satisfaction and pleasure to thousands of players. Auditorium size 15 3/4 x 40 in., made of carefully selected hardwoods [birch]. Arched top and back. Edges are celluloid bound. Ovalled ebonized fingerboard has bone nut and position markers. Adjustable ebonized bridge permits variation of string height. Celluloid pickguard. Nickel plated tailpiece. Black polished finish with contrasting grained reddish highlights. 4 string model similar in quality and beauty to No 950. Same dependable construction and finish. Plays easily, has pleasing tone.

Favorites for use in jazz groups and recommended by guitar teachers for students, these Auditorium size models are built with the traditional curved contour tops and backs, and violin-type f-holes, or sound holes.

Features of all models are the Sim-Thin neck reinforced with a rigid steel bar, ovalled hard maple fingerboard, white bone nut, adjustable bridge, bracket-mounted pickguard.

Over the years the prices were listed as $47.50, $54.50 & $69.50.