Beginner Mandolinist... Nut problems...

[I_N_J]

First post here. I've got a problem. Last August I decided to broaden my horizons. After years of guitar, I realized that almost everyone plays guitar, but I haven't met anyone my age who plays mandolin, and very few who even know what a mandolin is... So I decided to start playing mando, and got my first one. A Washburn M1S (http://www.washburn.com/products/bluegrass/mandolin/M1S.html). It's not great, I know, but for a beginner, it works.

The problem I'm having is with the action. When I first got it, I just messed around with my guitar stuff, so I really didn't notice it, but lately I realized that when it's played correctly, bluegrass sounds amazing. I started messing around with some bluegrass stuff, and I found that the action on my mandolin is terrible. I just keep getting fret buzz. I raised the action so that it was around 5mm at the twelfth fret, and still got terrible fret buzz. Now, I'm not sure how reasonable 5mm at the twelfth fret is for mando action, but I'm taking a guess in saying that that's probably too high, being that my 40 year old acoustic guitar has half that.

So, overall I came to the conclusion that the nut is giving me issues. I came up with two options. First, I was thinking about adding in a cut piece of large paper clip as a sort of zero fret. Any thoughts on that?

Secondly, I thought, this is obviously a relatively cheap mandolin. If the nut's giving me issues, why not put a better one on?

So with that being said, I'm looking for suggestions. First off, is 5mm unreasonable at the twelfth fret? I thought that was quite a bit too high, but I just come from a background of guitar. I don't know much about mandolins.

If it is unreasonable, what do you guys think? Would a better nut improve the sound of my mando? If not, I'll just mess around with a paper clip or other piece of metal to get this working right.

And assuming I do get a new nut... What should I look at for a beginner's mandolin? I know there are tons of different nuts out there.

So with all that being said, sorry for the wall of text, and thanks in advance.

Oh, and if I put this in the wrong section, would a moderator be so kind as to move it for me?

[jim simpson]

If there is buzz after raising the action, I would want to make sure the nut is or isn't the problem. If you happen to own a capo, clamp it before the 1st fret and see if it still buzzes. If it still is buzzing, you probably need to level and re-crown the frets. This should only be done after checking the straightness of the neck. These steps may be more than you're comfortable with and will requires some tools specific to the tasks.
Hope this helps.

[bennyb]

Well, you're in the right forum for starters. I have to doublecheck here: are you measuring between the top of the twelfth fret and the bottom of the string? 'Cause if you are, you're in oxygen deprivation altitude. .1 inch or about half of 5 mm would be the high end of 'normal' for most of us. Chasing down a buzz can be ...difficult. Check out the BuzzDiagnosis (http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/BuzzDiagnosis/startbuzz.html) page at Frets.com., while you're waiting for the real luthiers to comment. Jim's advice on the capo is a good start.

benny

[Bill Snyder]

If you add a "zero fret" your open strings will all be sharp.

[Pete Jenner]

If that's a new mandolin, take it back to whence thou bought it and get it set up properly or get thee to a luthier for a quote.

[pianoman89]

You can figure out real quick if you have a fretboard issue by taking a straight edge and setting it down between strings so it rests only on the frets. You should not be able to rock the strait edge at all. If you can, you have issues with your fingerboard that should be addressed by a professional. If it does not rock, the strings may be pinched in their slots on either nut or bridge. But if its buzzing on all strings, its most likely your fretboard. I had to pull the frets on a brand new mandolin an dress the fretboard before.

[8ch(pl)]

The side of a metal ruler is OK to check if the tops of the fret are straight.

[bart mcneil]

All of the info you need is on Frets.com. There is likely nothing wrong with your instrument but instruments do change, often with changes in the weather.
Frets.com will have all the set up information. It is likely that all it needs is for the nut to be raised perhaps the thickness of a piece of paper. It will tell you how to check for other problems as well.

[I_N_J]

You can figure out real quick if you have a fretboard issue by taking a straight edge and setting it down between strings so it rests only on the frets. You should not be able to rock the strait edge at all. If you can, you have issues with your fingerboard that should be addressed by a professional. If it does not rock, the strings may be pinched in their slots on either nut or bridge. But if its buzzing on all strings, its most likely your fretboard. I had to pull the frets on a brand new mandolin an dress the fretboard before.

Alright, tried this. No rocking at all. It's fine.


If there is buzz after raising the action, I would want to make sure the nut is or isn't the problem. If you happen to own a capo, clamp it before the 1st fret and see if it still buzzes. If it still is buzzing, you probably need to level and re-crown the frets. This should only be done after checking the straightness of the neck. These steps may be more than you're comfortable with and will requires some tools specific to the tasks.
Hope this helps.

Well... I just checked. If I play normally with the capo down, no problem. If I strike hard, I do get a little bit of buzz.

I'm fine doing it, I'll just need to get the tools.


All of the info you need is on Frets.com. There is likely nothing wrong with your instrument but instruments do change, often with changes in the weather.
Frets.com will have all the set up information. It is likely that all it needs is for the nut to be raised perhaps the thickness of a piece of paper. It will tell you how to check for other problems as well.

So I can raise the nut? I was under the assumption that I'd need a new one if this one were bad.

[multidon]

You need to determine if the nut is the problem first. As stated above, go to Frets.com and analyze the problem on the Buzz Diagnosis page. If the entire nut needs to be raised you can shim it from the bottom. Ideally, a piece of hardwood veneer cut to size but a piece of a business card can be a quick fix. Of course you have to be able to knock out the old nut in one piece without causing further damage. Depending on what type of glue was used or how much this can be tricky. If it is only certain slots that are too low then the slots can be filled with baking soda, a drop of super glue is allowed to soak in ( mask around it so the glue stays where it's supposed to) then re cut the slot. This assumes one has access to the proper gauges of nut slotting files.

These are supposed to be temporary fixes one does to get them through until a trip to a luthier. The best cure is a new nut fitted by someone who knows how to do it. Inexpensive mandolins often have sloppy nuts. But the above temporary fixes work well enough that some consider them permanent.

[I_N_J]

Alright, I need some help with determining the problem then.

I tried the capo test that was posted earlier. The results are as follows:

Capo at 1st fret: Still get buzz. Not as much, but still there.
Capo at 2nd fret: I get a little bit of buzz ONLY on the G string, everything else is fine
Capo at 3rd fret: No buzz.

I also took a couple more measurements.

Right at the nut, the G string is sitting at about 2mm or close to 1/16".

The string sits about 1mm over the first fret when open.

It's at 5mm overall at the 12th fret, 3mm above the physical fret.

With that being said, I'm not entirely sure as to what the problem is. I was told that if I got buzz with the capo, I'd need to level and recrown the frets, but being that it's only on the first two frets...

I really don't know. If someone could take a look at those measurements and help me out, it'd be much appreciated.

[Dale Ludewig]

The only place the nut will cause any problem is on an open string. If a nut slot is too deep, the string will buzz on the first fret. Once you fret a string, the nut is out the equation on that string. Period.

The distance of the string above the fretboard itself doesn't matter. The distance of the string above the actual fret is what matters. Your string isn't going to buzz against the wooden fingerboard, only against the frets. It actually sounds like your action is too low. I would try raising it, at least on the bass side.

[Pete Jenner]

I beg to differ there Mr L. If the string is 1 mm above the first fret, his action is too high. A folded sheet of printer paper should just slide under the G string at the first fret. 3 mm at the 12th sounds a little high too.

[Dale Ludewig]

Sorry Pete. To clarify, I meant the action at the bridge end may be too low. I was trying to rule out the nut action as being too low. That will cause buzzing on an open string but not on a fretted one. And yes, it sounds like the action at the nut is too high but that won't cause buzzing on a fretted (or capoed) string.

[I_N_J]

So I take it the nut is not the problem?

Might I need to adjust the truss rod?

Or should I look into recrowning and leveling the frets?

[Tom Haywood]

5 mm at the 12th fret is a little high, but not unreasonable. Some bluegrassers like it that high. 1mm at the first fret is high. Measurements only get you so far, because the setup is a balance of several factors. The mandolin is a different animal from the guitar, so thinking "guitar" will only get you so far. If your capo is put on well at the first fret and the only buzz is on the G string, then you may have a fret that needs to be seated better on that side. Play each fret up the G string until the buzz stops. That's your fret. Tap it down with a hammer. I tape a piece of thin cork on the hammer head. Sounds like this mandolin needs a proper setup, which is a process more than a status. If that is something you want to do yourself, I suggests taking it to a mandolin setup pro the first time and get them to talk about what they are looking at and doing to it. Each step needs to be done in the correct order to achieve the right balance.

[pops1]

Look very closely and see if you have fret 1 & 2 lifting or not seated against the fingerboard. You can use a feeler gauge if you have one and see if it slides under the sides of the fret. If a fret is not seated it will cause a buzz when you use that fret.

You could still have problems in your nut that the string is not seating on the very front edge of the nut, but in slightly.

You can use your strings and fret at the 1st and 12th frets and look to see neck relief somewhere in the middle you should have a few thousands or nearly flat. If it is too much it can cause problems tho usually in the center of the neck.

If you fret your mandolin on the first fret and it is properly set up the distance above the 2ond fret should be about what you want to see with the open string above the first fret or slightly less.

Hope all of this makes sense.

[I_N_J]

5 mm at the 12th fret is a little high, but not unreasonable. Some bluegrassers like it that high. 1mm at the first fret is high. Measurements only get you so far, because the setup is a balance of several factors. The mandolin is a different animal from the guitar, so thinking "guitar" will only get you so far. If your capo is put on well at the first fret and the only buzz is on the G string, then you may have a fret that needs to be seated better on that side. Play each fret up the G string until the buzz stops. That's your fret. Tap it down with a hammer. I tape a piece of thin cork on the hammer head. Sounds like this mandolin needs a proper setup, which is a process more than a status. If that is something you want to do yourself, I suggests taking it to a mandolin setup pro the first time and get them to talk about what they are looking at and doing to it. Each step needs to be done in the correct order to achieve the right balance.


Alright, I'm really having trouble understanding here. If 1mm is too high off the fret, where is my buzzing coming from?


Look very closely and see if you have fret 1 & 2 lifting or not seated against the fingerboard. You can use a feeler gauge if you have one and see if it slides under the sides of the fret. If a fret is not seated it will cause a buzz when you use that fret.

You could still have problems in your nut that the string is not seating on the very front edge of the nut, but in slightly.

You can use your strings and fret at the 1st and 12th frets and look to see neck relief somewhere in the middle you should have a few thousands or nearly flat. If it is too much it can cause problems tho usually in the center of the neck.

If you fret your mandolin on the first fret and it is properly set up the distance above the 2ond fret should be about what you want to see with the open string above the first fret or slightly less.

Hope all of this makes sense.
The frets look fine to my untrained eyes. I'll measure them later when I have access to the tools again.

Relief appears to be fine.

There is definitely significantly less distance between the string and fret of the second fret if I put my finger down at the first.

[Pete Jenner]

Sorry Pete. To clarify, I meant the action at the bridge end may be too low. I was trying to rule out the nut action as being too low. That will cause buzzing on an open string but not on a fretted one. And yes, it sounds like the action at the nut is too high but that won't cause buzzing on a fretted (or capoed) string.

Oh I see. Thanks for the clarification Dale. I thought you were drunk for a minute. :grin:
Agree about the buzzing. We need pictures ...and some of the mandolin.

[I_N_J]

I just left home for the day. When I get home I'll see if I can get a video.

[Bill Snyder]

FWIW to anyone that replies - the 5mm measurement he gave at the 12th fret is above the board. He has since noted that the difference between the 12th fret and the string is 3mm which is .118 inches (not quite an 1/8")

[Pete Jenner]

That was covered in post #13. ;)

[Rob Zamites]

Also, just adding my two pence (yes, I'm American, and we don't use pence, but I like how it sounds):

Rob Meldrum's Set Up PDF (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?98399-Mandolin-Set-up-E-Book-by-Rob-Meldrum)
Free for Cafe members, details in that thread.

[Bill Snyder]

That was covered in post #13. ;)

Yes, yes it was, but someone was still referencing the 5mm measurement. :mandosmiley:

[Tom Haywood]

Thanks. I missed it. Never hurts to raise the action at the bridge to see if that stops the buzzing. Simple solution, if it feels comfortable to play. Might raise the bass side 1 or 2 32nds or more (measured at the 12th fret) and see if the buzz stops. That would be within "normal" range across the strings.

[multidon]

I_N_J, it is very difficult for any of us to analyze the problem without having the instrument in hand. You are doing a good job of describing the symptoms, but there is no substitute for first hand observations. To me it sounds like a fret, either the first or second, has loosened at the edge and the end has risen a bit. That would show up as a perfectly level fret when you press down on it with the straight edge. It would pop back up when you let go. Sometimes it isn't even obvious to the naked eye. It doesn't take much. A couple thousandths of a inch could do it. But I am just saying that is a problem that fits your description of the symptoms. That does not mean it's the definitive answer.

You seem to want someone here to give you the answer, tell you to do A B and C, and problem solved. I'm telling you, it just isn't that easy. I'm sorry. I would tell you that way if I could. All of us here really do want to help beginners.

You should check out the Stewart MacDonald web site. There is a treasure trove of free information in the Trade Secrets newsletter archive. Somewhere in there is an article that tells you, step by step, what to do about a loose fret end, if that's what it is.

The model of mandolin you chose is commonly sold through mass marketing outlets, such as Amazon, Musician's Friend, Guitar Center, etc. if you obtained it from one of those or a similar outlet, I assure you it has not received a professional set up. It would not be cost effective for them to do so. You most likely received it in a box that hasn't been opened since it was put on the boat. The factory set up is minimal or non existent. A trip to a luthier and an extra 50 to 60 dollars for a proper set up would probably solve the problem. I always try to steer beginners to a shop where they actually open the box and do a professional set up and include it in the purchase price. It is so worth it. But that is too late for you. Do you want to spend a bunch of time trying to fix it, or do you want to play it? A trip to a luthier would save you much aggravation I think. If you would be willing to tell us where you are located, we could probably recommend somebody near you.

[I_N_J]

I_N_J, it is very difficult for any of us to analyze the problem without having the instrument in hand. You are doing a good job of describing the symptoms, but there is no substitute for first hand observations. To me it sounds like a fret, either the first or second, has loosened at the edge and the end has risen a bit. That would show up as a perfectly level fret when you press down on it with the straight edge. It would pop back up when you let go. Sometimes it isn't even obvious to the naked eye. It doesn't take much. A couple thousandths of a inch could do it. But I am just saying that is a problem that fits your description of the symptoms. That does not mean it's the definitive answer.

You seem to want someone here to give you the answer, tell you to do A B and C, and problem solved. I'm telling you, it just isn't that easy. I'm sorry. I would tell you that way if I could. All of us here really do want to help beginners.

You should check out the Stewart MacDonald web site. There is a treasure trove of free information in the Trade Secrets newsletter archive. Somewhere in there is an article that tells you, step by step, what to do about a loose fret end, if that's what it is.

The model of mandolin you chose is commonly sold through mass marketing outlets, such as Amazon, Musician's Friend, Guitar Center, etc. if you obtained it from one of those or a similar outlet, I assure you it has not received a professional set up. It would not be cost effective for them to do so. You most likely received it in a box that hasn't been opened since it was put on the boat. The factory set up is minimal or non existent. A trip to a luthier and an extra 50 to 60 dollars for a proper set up would probably solve the problem. I always try to steer beginners to a shop where they actually open the box and do a professional set up and include it in the purchase price. It is so worth it. But that is too late for you. Do you want to spend a bunch of time trying to fix it, or do you want to play it? A trip to a luthier would save you much aggravation I think. If you would be willing to tell us where you are located, we could probably recommend somebody near you.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

I bought it through a local music store. We adjusted the bridge for intonation and put some decent strings on, but that's about it.

I'm in southeast Michigan. Northern Macomb county. I know there's a good luthier around here... I have his information written down somewhere. Probably time to contact him.

Thanks a lot guys for the help.

[multidon]

You are probably not too far from one of the best shops in the country, Elderly Instruments in Lansing. Heartily recommend them. Don't know how much they charge for a set up but they have a reputation of being pricey.

Your local music store probably should have done more for you set up wise but the situation as you describe it is not that unusual. Local music stores are usually run by guitar guys, and setting up a mandolin is quite different. It is lucky for you that your local store even bothers to carry mandolins. Most don't bother. At least you'll have a source for strings.

Good luck to you on your mandolin journey. Once you get it playing right you won't be able to put it down!

[Rob Zamites]

A second vote for Elderly. Their guys are top notch and while they're a bit pricey, they do absolutely fantastic work. Highly recommend them (and as a bonus, you can wander about and play *anything* in the store).

[pianoman89]

I also suggest taking it to a shop. If its buzzing on the open string, I dont see how it can possibly be your frets. I really think you need to inspect the bridge end of things. I would be willing to bet the grove in your bridge was cut at ever so slightly a downward angle. As you capo up the fretboard, your string is changing angle and seating correctly in your bridge, eliminating the buzz.

[I_N_J]

Elderly is a little far for me at around two hours away. :(

Anyone here heard of Larry Stevens? I know he's a good guitar luthier, and I think I may have read somewhere that he can do mandolin work.

I know he's really close to me, as I've seen him at an open mic night that takes place right in my town. I just need to find a way to contact him...

Also, anyone interested in seeing that video? It's pretty much resolved being that I'm going to get this set up, but couldn't hurt, could it?

[Tom Haywood]

I was in Detroit not long ago, and was impressed with the guys at Southland Music on Eureka Rd. in Taylor. They don't sell any expensive mandolins, but what they had played very nice. You might call and see who they recommend up your way. Or click on the "Builders" link on the MC home page, search Michigan, call somebody near you and ask who they recommend. Someone is listed in Madison Heights.

[bart mcneil]

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[I_N_J]

Well... A plot twist...

I couldn't find that luthier, and figured I'd try setting up the mandolin myself. I'm good with tools and cheap, so the perfect combo for someone who wants to set up a mandolin. :p

Anyways. I decided to locate my buzzing. I took off the strings, bridge, and tailpiece. And now when I tap on the fretboard, I can hear the buzzing. Something's vibrating in there. I haven't done anything yet, as I'd like suggestions before I start messing around with the truss rod. Ruined one guitar messing with one... don't need to ruin my mando.

So what do you guys think? The buzzing isn't being caused by the strings, bridge, or taipiece, and I can hear the same sound if I tap on the fretboard with everything off. Any ideas?

[Bill Snyder]

Check the truss rod nut. If it is loose that could cause the buzzing. Tighten it up just enough that it is not loose.

[I_N_J]

Yes! That did it! Time to put it all back together and hope this fixes it. If it does, I'll save setting up for a weekend project. I really should be focusing on my mid terms this week...

[bart mcneil]

The lesson is that it is often something very simple which most folks assume will not be the problem. In this case shoddy manufacturers and ignorant sellers

[I_N_J]

Eh. It's a mass produced Chinese instrument. My fault not to suspect that.

But it's fixed now. Sounds a lot better.

Problem though... I have the bridge all the way down and no buzzing... I believe that means I'm going to have to take stuff off the saddle and/or bridge.

I'm guessing I'm going to have to do a bit of work setting it up. Hopefully I have the time this weekend. I can't wait to get this thing playing as good as it can.

Another question that I've been wondering for a while though... The bridge. Is it supposed to have contact all the way along the body? Or is it only supposed to contact on the two "feet"? I have a very slight gap between the bridge and body in the center, and I don't know if I'm supposed to sand that out or not.

[pops1]

Bridges use both techniques full and two feet, since yours has the two feet leave it that way, it will be easier to fit.