Overpriced mandolins ...

[Teak]

Christmas holiday and I made a trip to visit my brother in the Big City.

Brother took me down to a shop that specializes in guitars with a small selection of mandolins. There were several low priced Breedloves that reminded me of the $60 mandolin that I started playing mandolin with in 1976. Brother thought I should check out the two mandolins made by a local, famous luthier. One was priced at $8,000 and the other at $22,000.

I was reluctant at first, since I don't believe in getting MAS for something I cannot justify buying. But brother was persistent so I gave in and tried both.

Verdict? Totally UNDERwhelmed. Neither mandolin (both F shaped) projected as well as the 1979 Givens A that I bought in 1979 and have used ever since. In fact, the Givens would smack down both of those Fs in a bluegrass stomp.

I moved over and tried the only Collings in the shop, a MF that was listed for around $2,800. The Collings was definitely better than either of the overpriced Fs, but was still inferior to my Givens. I liked the radiused fretboard, but that was the only advantage the Collings would have over the Givens. In every other aspect (tone, projection, beauty, etc.), the Givens wins hands down.

What I have come to appreciate is that my 1979 mandolin is probably worth more than what I had assumed, although the irrational love that people have for those Butt Ugly Protuberances (F scrolls) would mean fewer buyers in the market for it. Never mind, it will never leave my hands.

The bigger question is: What gives with the overpricing of mandolins that are inferior in sound, but loaded with bling?

[Steve Ostrander]

I declare you cured of MAS! You are a lucky man.

[SincereCorgi]

To be fair, some of those Givens mandolins are absolutely badass so you may have a skewed outlook.

[Teak]

To be fair, some of those Givens mandolins are absolutely badass so you may have a skewed outlook.

So if the Givens' sound is >>> $22k overpriced mandolin's sound, does that mean the value of the Givens >>> $22k? I don't think so. I think some luthiers have an unrealistic idea of the prices that the market can bear. Or else they believe in The Greater Fool theory, which states there will be at least one person out there who is foolish enough to overpay for a mediocre-sounding (but blinged up) instrument.

Incidentally, my brother talked with the owner of the guitar shop, who is quite well known and a long time in the business, and he said that many of the 60-year-olds to whom he has been selling guitars over the years are starting to unload their guitar portfolios. Thus, you can expect prices to either stagnate, or start to come down.

[jclover]

Not sure what your Givens is worth, but the Parlor in Knoxville wants $4K for a 1979 Givens A with lots of play wear. No, that is not $22K, not even $8K, but not exactly cheap either. You do pay more for bling, inflation sucks, and some folks appreciate different tones...I don't find that particularly surprising though. Bet your Givens is awesome, so it sounds to me like all is good!

[Kowboy]

I hear ya Teak and I also have a grasp on economics and how it applies to supply and demand. Many fine luthiers today are not even taking new orders as they are backed up. They also tend to use the best woods and components and usually build completely by hand. I kind of see what they turn out as art. I respect your opinion as well as others who will disagree with you.

[MikeEdgerton]

On the other side of the coin I've played a half dozen Givens in my life and wouldn't have purchased any of them. Setup and personal preference is a real big part of any instrument.

[Jim Garber]

This has been discussed multiple times in multiple threads. The same discussion is extended to "overpriced" picks as well as other accessories.And it always comes down to the same thing: some folks are willing to pay the high price for some luthiers work and some are not. I have played some excellent $22,000 instruments that I loved and others that I do not -- and some were even made by the same person or shop.

I am sure that your Givens is a wonderful instrument and there are many of us who would be jealous of your good fortune in finding it so many years ago. I certainly am not one who is drawn only to scrolled mandolins -- I generally am attracted by tone and playability. But I can see the attraction for the higher quality models. I also would not say that there is only one person "who is foolish enough to overpay for a mediocre-sounding (but blinged up) instrument" but that there are many who are willing to do so. And I would also wager that it is not only the bling that attracts them but the tone and workmanship. To each his or her own.

[Stephen Perry]

In the violin world, there are many players who really like instruments with a beautiful and consistent tone, good and easy playability, and excellent projection. They'll pay a good deal for those. Then there are players who chose touchy, demanding, fickle instruments that are intense and very very expensive. There's a reason that good old Cremonese instruments demand more cash. There's also a reason that eventually top players tend to choose the del Gesu instruments over the Stradivari instruments.

Now take a nice good Stradivari and give it to a step up player and they're likely to hand it back. Has been done.

I'm not saying that's the situation here, but different players are looking for different things.

On the other hand, a relatively poor Stradivari gets a better good price boost from the reputation, whether or not anyone can really make it light up.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I stopped into the local wine store to make a Christmas purchase a few days ago.
Lots of bottles on the shelves there at astronomical prices. I'd never pay that kind of money for a bottle of wine. Those bottles are there because some people have different preferences than my own.
I'm perfectly happy with a <$10 dollar bottle of Australian Cabernet.
I dont' lose any sleep over it.

[BradKlein]

To the original poster: You may as well name names if you're trying to be a real flame thrower. Start with your OWN name, and then move on to the City, the store and the luthiers who are making all that overpriced junk out there.

[rubydubyr]

I played a washburn and a loar at our local guitar center store yesterday, I didn't think either of them sounded as nice as my gretsch, and my daughter agreed. And both were 3-400 more than I paid for my mandolin.

[Ron McMillan]

People who can afford a 200 mph Ferrari don't need a Ferrari, but only a fool would say that a Honda at a tenth of the price is a better performing car. Likewise, I'm pretty certain that most of the people here who blow $10k on an Ellis three months after taking up the mandolin will never need the Ellis, but they want it, they can afford it - and it is a beautiful thing to have (and a much better thing to be spending money on than a darn Ferrari).

[rubydubyr]

To the original poster: You may as well name names if you're trying to be a real flame thrower. Start with your OWN name, and then move on to the City, the store and the luthiers who are making all that overpriced junk out there.

.... wow.......

[Don Grieser]

Do tell. Including your own name.

[sachmo63]

Brad, I don't think that's very nice. The OP was mearly pointing out what has been discussed here at length; that some mandolins are very much over priced and whether you agree with the OP or not does not give you permission to boss people around and call them names I.e. (Flame Thrower).

[rubydubyr]

Personally, for what it's worth..... I didn't take the OP's post as flame throwing...... just a question of wonderment that a mandolin he/she didn't think sounded as nice as hers/his actually had a 22,000 dollar price tag. just my 2 cents worth..... and might not be worth evne 2 cents.....

[Eddie Sheehy]

A Collings MF at $2,800 is a good deal. A Givens is a great mando. There are no overpriced mandolins, but there are buyers with too much money... Not that I've met any of them.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Brad, I don't think that's very nice. The OP was mearly pointing out what has been discussed here at length; that some mandolins are very much over priced and whether you agree with the OP or not does not give you permission to boss people around and call them names I.e. (Flame Thrower).

Really? I smell Napalm in the phrase below.


... those Butt Ugly Protuberances (F scrolls)...

[Pete Jenner]

'Overpriced' is definitely in the eye, ear and wallet of the beholder. Vive la différence!

[allenhopkins]

1. "How mandolins sound" is a subjective judgment. Someone else might walk into the same store, listen to the two Whozis mandolins and your Givens, and find nuances and subtleties in their voices that make them more attractive. Not saying that would happen, but, honestly, the world and the Cafe´are replete with people saying "I just tried out an X instrument/bicycle/surfboard/craft beer, and it doesn't stack up to my Y ditto/ditto/ditto/ditto that cost one-eighth as much. What's the matter with the deluded fools who think they can get eight times more money for their dreck, or the equally deluded fools who'll pay those inflated prices?"

2. The market, often, doesn't care about "intrinsic value," assuming such could be measured. It's about supply and demand, and with "goods" as specialized and low-volume as upscale mandolins, it can get damned quirky. What does "Loar era" mean in regard to a Gibson A-1 mandolin, which Lloyd Loar never saw during its manufacture? Is it really worth multiples of what a pre- or post-Loar A-1 would be worth? And is a Gibson really worth multiples of what a contemporary Regal, Martin, Lyon & Healy would be worth? And how many multiples?

3. You may have the gem of all Givenses -- or not. Definitely you've played it for 35 years, probably whipped it like a rented mule at times. The two Whozises are, presumably, largely unplayed. What will they sound like after 35 years, once some "deluded fool" buys 'em and whips 'em like said mule? What woods are they made of, how are they carved and finished? I have a one-of custom five-course, fan-fret instrument made for me last year by a good local luthier; it's by far the most expensive instrument I've ever purchased. Is it my best sounding mandolin? No -- not yet -- and it may never be. It is what it is, built solely to my specs, and I value it for what it is and what it represents -- the work of a talented craftsperson. unique and personal.

4. Building mandolins is not the shortest path to billionaire-hood. This may surprise you. Especially if your name isn't "Gibson" or even "Givens." When you spend several months carving, gluing, inlaying, finishing, testing, and consigning an instrument, it wouldn't be impertinent to expect to realize a decent return on all your investment in materials and hand-work. If your "product" doesn't compare to what else is available, if it truly is overpriced and no one buys it, the market will tell you that your business plan needs serious tweaking. In the meantime, what you do is put the instruments out there, set an asking price, and see what happens.

I just finished reading a book called Hatching Twitter, about the trials of starting the social-network firm over the past ten years or so. My younger son Pete's a Twitter software engineer, and he annotated the book based on his personal experience. The gist of the story is that a bunch of talented, difficult, disorganized, half-nuts geeks blundered into an amazing idea, spent years in mismanagement, self-destructive infighting, coups and counter-coups, and ended up with a lot of money, and a profitable world-wide company largely run by other people who know how to run things. Maybe Mr. Whozis the mandolin luthier will end up founding the next Weber, Collings, or even Gibson. Maybe he'll end up as a bicycle messenger or an insurance agent.

Glad you like your Givens, and glad you don't have to buy one of the Whozises. Nice to be happy with what you got, and able to marvel at those who may buy worse mandolins at higher prices. But remember, a lot of it is basically opinion -- and, as we know, everyone has one. Like, you know, that unmentionable body part.

[bratsche]

Really? I smell Napalm in the phrase below.

"Butt Ugly Protuberances" smells like napalm? Whoa, are you serious? And here I was thinking that was another cute name for them to add to the collection. (Hint: Not everyone thinks scrolls are aesthetically pleasing.) And I think the OP's post was mostly about his happy satisfaction with the instrument he has, not about the others, and that he actually went out of his way to avoid throwing flames by NOT mentioning any names. And it seems like at least one other person is quite disappointed that he didn't.

bratsche

[Jeff Mando]

'Overpriced' is definitely in the eye, ear and wallet of the beholder. Vive la différence!

So true! As a young musician, many years ago, we were wined and dined by Warner Bros in LA and got to stay in one of those Hollywood mansions like you see on TV for a few days. It quickly became obvious to me that while I struggled to pay my $200 rent each month, some people could write a check for $20,000 and still have money left over to buy art, collect exotic cars, eat in fancy restaurants, and live in mansions! I believe the expression, "Life Sucks" summarizes these feelings of inequality. And, no, we didn't get signed. (or I may have been writing this from the perspective of "How the Rich also struggle!") LOL ...C'mon, I'm serious, they struggle, too, just in different ways, OK? :)) to keep from :crying:

[Jeff Mando]

but there are buyers with too much money... Not that I've met any of them.

They don't seem to show up when I'm trying to sell something, either!

[Bernie Daniel]

To the original poster: You may as well name names if you're trying to be a real flame thrower. Start with your OWN name, and then move on to the City, the store and the luthiers who are making all that overpriced junk out there.

I'm glad you said that!!

[Bernie Daniel]

Brad, I don't think that's very nice. The OP was mearly pointing out what has been discussed here at length; that some mandolins are very much over priced and whether you agree with the OP or not does not give you permission to boss people around and call them names I.e. (Flame Thrower).

I Brad's comment is fair. (BTW you know his name -- but yours is sachmo6?)

Yes this topic HAS been discussed here in the past, about a million times, and I think calling the original post incendiary (a subjective evaluation) seems as reasonable as the original poster's negative, and equally SUBJECTIVE, comments about the 'inferior" and more expensive mandolins he (she?) tested.

It would not be at all surprising to find other mandolin pickers would find the $22K mandolin to be MUCH better than his/her (name?) Givens. Then what?

I don't put much stock in the OP evaluation anyway because it seems to me that the store mandolins were being compared to the memory of the Givens? Maybe the Givens would not have sounded so superior in an ACTUAL back to back comparison?

[pianoman89]

1. "How mandolins sound" is a subjective judgment.

+1 on everything Allen says. But the above quote is most likely the key to the OP's apparent disgust of the mandolins. I personally know a man who prefers the mellow woody sound of an old flatback over the cleaner crisper sound of a carved mandolin. He would take a flatback over an early Gibson that would have most folks drooling. The man used to play bluegrass, but now his music tastes have changed and so have his opinions about what sounds good. What may sound foul to you may sound great to another... perhaps even $22000 great.

So the question is, if you didnt like the sound, what do you care if they are way off in price? I see violins on ebay every day that I wouldnt give $50 for and are listed and over a grand. But it doesnt bother me cause even if they were $50, I would buy them. You see what im saying here is you really only have a reason to complain about the price of something if you would actually like to buy that something.

Knowing how incredibly difficult it is to make a living on any type of skilled labor/art in this time in which we live, I have to go with the outlook of charge what you think you can get. The value of something, when it comes down to it, is how much someone is willing to dig out of their wallet. Sure, there are guides for values of things such as cars and antiques, but those guides are simply a reporting of how much the average person was willing to pay for whatever it is your valuating. I have experienced trying to make a living off of fine woodwork. Most people who were buying thought I was overcharging, and most people who knew what went into my product though I was undercharging. It turns out I never made over $10/hr, generally less, and would often work day and night to get my product out in a reasonable time.

[rubydubyr]

OMG......... why don't we just tie the OP to a stake and have an old fashioned blood sacrifice for him daring to voice his opinion of some mandolins he tried, didn't care for, and then had the sheer audacity to voice his opinion they were overpriced.

[Bernie Daniel]

I stopped into the local wine store to make a Christmas purchase a few days ago.
Lots of bottles on the shelves there at astronomical prices. I'd never pay that kind of money for a bottle of wine. Those bottles are there because some people have different preferences than my own.
I'm perfectly happy with a <$10 dollar bottle of Australian Cabernet.
I dont' lose any sleep over it.

Yes it is all relative.

When in high school and before I should have been able to buy anything with alcohol in it we had our favorite wine (favorite = we could afford it) -- it was called "Thunderbird". Someone even memorialized it with a poem.

What's the word?
Thunderbird!
What's the price?
Forty twice!

We did not lose any sleep drinking our 80 cent a bottle wine either -- though I expect we might have lost some stomach lining. If it were still on the market it would probably be used to degrease transmission parts.

At least you stayed on topic with your post..............:))

[Bernie Daniel]

OMG......... why don't we just tie the OP to a stake and have an old fashioned blood sacrifice for him daring to voice his opinion of some mandolins he tried, didn't care for, and then had the sheer audacity to voice his opinion they were overpriced.

Hyperbole perhaps?

I'm wondering how the maker of the $22K mandolin would feel about the OP. What comes around goes around eh?

[Petrus]

Definitely a double standard at work. Few here would argue that an entry-level Rogue would be overpriced at $500. But then no maker is being dissed because it just comes from a big factory after all.

Best way to find out what something is "worth" is put it on auction, like a lot of high-end instruments. It sells to the highest bidder and by definition that's what it's worth. Would that $22K mando get $22K on auction? It might go higher or it might go lower, but you can't argue that it ended up at the wrong price.

[bratsche]

I personally know a man who prefers the mellow woody sound of an old flatback over the cleaner crisper sound of a carved mandolin. He would take a flatback over an early Gibson that would have most folks drooling.

O, the horror! :)) Sounds like a man after my own heart, and one with good taste! <3 And I'm a woman with such preferences, and think the added bonus that they're less expensive is just gravy. I hope the likes of us aren't considered too eccentric or freakish around here?

So now the question is why the OP posts to comment about high prices, or "overpriced" instruments? I can't climb into his/her head and answer that, but perhaps it's just one person's way of expressing joyfulness at the good fortune of having a (relatively) reasonably priced instrument that so well satisfies him or her?

I know certain people around here take extreme umbrage at any criticism (or even perceived slights) made toward any of their sacred cows, and for that reason I kind of try to keep my own gloating to a minimum. But for my part, it's a fact that I wouldn't trade a single one of my flatbacks for a carved one, even one costing more than I earn annually (especially an f-hole model), if I actually had to keep and play it. Of course, if I could flip it and get something else that I actually wanted or needed, that would be another story. ;-)

bratsche
(And I happily tell anyone my real name who sends me a PM - I just have this thing about wanting it to remain unsearchable on the interwebz.)

[pianoman89]

I hope the likes of us aren't considered too eccentric or freakish around here?[/SIZE]

I should hope not. Its hard to beat the sound of a Brazilian Rosewood flatback, especially when your playing in a small group and don't need to cut through to be heard.

I surly was not intending to slight the flatback, just pointing out that, as previously stated, sound is such a subjective quality.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Amongst mandolins in almost all price ranges for 'decent' instruments,there will be variations in tonal quality. Some will be ok,some will be good & others that will sound very good indeed 'within their price range'. One thing that i've found with my own instruments,is that on a daily basis,especially as temperatures range up & down,their tonal & volume aspects change. When mine are cold,they go sharp - literally, & sound thin & tinny. However,when they get warm,the sound opens up & they usually sound superb. Deep,woody bass (especially on my Lebeda) but even the trebles sound more full bodied. You could simply have caught the high priced instruments that you played on a bad day - it does happen. Maybe if you'd had your Givens with you at the time,a more fair comparison might have been made.
Ron Mc's analogy re.cars - Any car will get you from A to B,but who would suggest that a high cost / performance car wouldn't be a more enjoyable driving / riding experience - probably not many. In exactly the same way,even a relative newcomer to the mandolin world would enjoy playing a high cost ''excellent sounding / playing'' mandolin rather than a $50 'beater'.
If your Givens sounds as good as you say,then you're very fortunate. You've already got what many of us are constantly searching to find. I found my own 'ideal' in my recently purchased Ellis "A" style,but that doesn't mean that my Weber "Fern" & my Lebeda "Special" are inferior - no way !. They're simply different sounding mandolins, & i enjoy all of themfor exactly that reason. I take any one of them 'out to play' as my choice dictates & i'm never disappointed,
Ivan;)

[Astro]

Pricing is something that is sometimes hard for many of us to understand with mandolins as with many other things. The observation that, "this is a topic that has been discussed many times here" speaks to that difficulty. It will come up again. And there will be arguments both ways as with everything that is difficult to understand.

Fortunately, pricing is something we only have to justify to ourselves. We look to others for confirmation because that is human nature. In the beginning there is a very poor understanding. But I think after just a few years of play, its not so hard to determine what something is worth to us. But its still human nature to try to get our pals to agree with our valuation.

So we can say whether we agree or not for us (but not for anyone else). But there is no need to get testy.

I assume the reason the op didnt announce the builder or the shop is that he didnt want to hurt anyone's feelings. And I assume some dont use their real name because there is no telling who gets enraged by what on a public forum; and who knows the mental stability of strangers and why expose their family to something like that on a forum that is just suppose to be for fun. Only a small fraction of those reading the forum ever become members, and only a fraction of the members ever post.

I have made friends on this forum who know who I am. And I don't mind the owner of the forum knowing who I am. But I don't want the world knowing who I am. Not because I am ashamed of anything I say. But because there are lots of kinds of people in the world many of whom are unable to control themselves and I dont need that kind of hassle in my life.

So those of you who use your name, that is fine with me. Yes I do feel more connected by knowing it. On the other hand, just because others elect not to do so, does not in any way lesson the relevance of their post. And the "calling out" of such a thing as a bullying ploy certainly reinforces my decision.

--Astro

(hint: Not my real name)

[MikeEdgerton]

Definitely a double standard at work. Few here would argue that an entry-level Rogue would be overpriced at $500...

I'm pretty sure I would. They sell for less than $50.00. :cool:

[Stephen Perry]

Something to consider a whole bunch is that the top players I show things to pretty much never use the term "tone." They're looking at things other than tone.

[yankees1]

It's all in the eyes, ears and wallet of the beholder !

[Astro]

Something to consider a whole bunch is that the top players I show things to pretty much never use the term "tone." They're looking at things other than tone.

Interesting Stephen. What things do the top players say they are looking for ?

[rubydubyr]

Hyperbole perhaps?

I'm wondering how the maker of the $22K mandolin would feel about the OP. What comes around goes around eh?

Do you have a personal stake in this? Is that why you are so quick to heat the tar and gather the feathers?????

[Bernie Daniel]

... personally know a man who prefers the mellow woody sound of an old flatback over the cleaner crisper sound of a carved mandolin. He would take a flatback over an early Gibson that would have most folks drooling. The man used to play bluegrass, but now his music tastes have changed and so have his opinions about what sounds good. What may sound foul to you may sound great to another... perhaps even $22000 great.....


O, the horror! :)) Sounds like a man after my own heart, and one with good taste! <3 And I'm a woman with such preferences, and think the added bonus that they're less expensive is just gravy. I hope the likes of us aren't considered too eccentric or freakish around here? .....I know certain people around here take extreme umbrage at any criticism (or even perceived slights) made toward any of their sacred cows, and for that reason I kind of try to keep my own gloating to a minimum. But for my part, it's a fact that I wouldn't trade a single one of my flatbacks for a carved one, even one costing more than I earn annually (especially an f-hole model), if I actually had to keep and play it. Of course, if I could flip it and get something else that I actually wanted or needed, that would be another story.... ;-)

Well I certainly agree that the sound of a flat back or gourd back mandolin is perfect for classical and Neapolitan etc. music. And who would argue with that after seeing and/or hearing Caterina Lichtenberg play a piece?

They might even sound OK for doing Rawhide (levity here) -- I really don't know!

However, the other point you make about -- that all of us F-style enthusiasts are "thin skinned" about our scroll envy is a red herring.

Do you EVER hear the F-style devotees putting down a flat back, a tater bug or an A-style mandolin or chiding the folks who choose to own one? Doubt it. Could have happened but not enough for me to recall an occasion.

It seems to me that the only people who stir up this hornet's nest are those mandolinists who DON"T own a scroll? So perhaps the old saw wears thin or dull after the 1000th time?

For someone like the OP who does not like the looks of an F-style mandolin and/or thinks they cost too much -- here is a very simple solution: DON"T BUY ONE!!!

I do like his/her tag line though! :)

[Randy Linam]

The "worth" of an item is what someone/the public is willing to pay for it. The "value" of an item is when quality/performance exceeds the item's "worth."

[rubydubyr]

Great point, Petrus :)

[rubydubyr]

Pricing is something that is sometimes hard for many of us to understand with mandolins as with many other things. The observation that, "this is a topic that has been discussed many times here" speaks to that difficulty. It will come up again. And there will be arguments both ways as with everything that is difficult to understand.

Fortunately, pricing is something we only have to justify to ourselves. We look to others for confirmation because that is human nature. In the beginning there is a very poor understanding. But I think after just a few years of play, its not so hard to determine what something is worth to us. But its still human nature to try to get our pals to agree with our valuation.

So we can say whether we agree or not for us (but not for anyone else). But there is no need to get testy.

I assume the reason the op didnt announce the builder or the shop is that he didnt want to hurt anyone's feelings. And I assume some dont use their real name because there is no telling who gets enraged by what on a public forum; and who knows the mental stability of strangers and why expose their family to something like that on a forum that is just suppose to be for fun. Only a small fraction of those reading the forum ever become members, and only a fraction of the members ever post.

I have made friends on this forum who know who I am. And I don't mind the owner of the forum knowing who I am. But I don't want the world knowing who I am. Not because I am ashamed of anything I say. But because there are lots of kinds of people in the world many of whom are unable to control themselves and I dont need that kind of hassle in my life.

So those of you who use your name, that is fine with me. Yes I do feel more connected by knowing it. On the other hand, just because others elect not to do so, does not in any way lesson the relevance of their post. And the "calling out" of such a thing as a bullying ploy certainly reinforces my decision.

--Astro

(hint: Not my real name)

Hear, Hear!!!!! Very well said and thank you muchly for a voice of sanity in the wilderness! :)

[rubydubyr]

Interesting Stephen. What things do the top players say they are looking for ?

I was just wondering that myself....... :grin:

[Nashville]

On the bright side, there is something for everyone out there. It's truly amazing the selection of instruments now available in this modern world, truly amazing. Something in every price range that is decent and sometimes great and sometimes spectacular. Everyone can find their little piece of mandolin heaven.

[Bernie Daniel]

Pricing is something that is sometimes hard for many of us to understand with mandolins as with many other things. The observation that, "this is a topic that has been discussed many times here" speaks to that difficulty. It will come up again. And there will be arguments both ways as with everything that is difficult to understand....

Which is why screeds like the OP don't make much sense -- one should not buy a mandolin that they think is "butt ugly" or does not sound good, or is too expensive. There problems solved!


...I assume the reason the op didnt announce the builder or the shop is that he didnt want to hurt anyone's feelings.....

Well since the shop was in the "Big City" -- which is New York? And the mandolin was priced at $22K --how many choices for the "local, famous luthier" can you come up with?


...On the other hand, just because others elect not to do so, does not in any way lesson the relevance of their post...

I don't always agree with that -- depends on the issue.

[Teak]

Thanks for the discussion! For the record, irrationality is a human trait. We all have it, some to a greater extent than others. And The Greater Fool theory is an economic one, not coined by me. And, yes, I don't like F scrolls. Never have; never will. If you want to pay for an F scroll, go ahead by all means. I would rather have a $2,000 mandolin and $20,000 in savings than a $22,000 mandolin. If I was a pro, making money from music, then I could justify the high-priced instrument, likening it to "my bulldozer". (I had an in-law who made money with his bulldozer.)

Some might think that I overpaid in 1979 but that was in an expanding market and the prices rose accordingly. Most failed to notice the final paragraph in my second post, the one about the industry expert predicting a stagnation of prices as the retiring Boomers start to dump their collections. If you have not been paying attention of late, there are a lot of Boomers who are not prepared for retirement. Maybe 100% of those with the large collections of instruments (not just mandolins) are financially secure, but I doubt it.

I do not want to name the luthier out of respect for him and his craft. He probably makes some decent instruments, but has overpriced the two that I tried in my humble opinion.

[multidon]

In other posts the OP tells us he is in Minnesota. When he went to "the big city" he tried instruments by a "local famous luthier". Ok who makes mandolins in Minnesota, is well known for them, and charges up to 22000 for them? It ain't rocket science folks. Not hard to figure out at all. Starts with a B? Anyone else besides me connect those dots?

The OP is doing what we all tell everyone to do. Play a bunch of instruments and find out what sound you like. Sounds to me like he is enacting exactly what most of us preach. If he knows what he likes then that is to his advantage.

I have somewhat the opposite problem. All my mandolins sound distinctly different but I think they all sound good as well! So I guess I have multiple ideas of what a good mandolin sounds like.

[Austin Bob]

This topic seems to resurface on a regular basis. Which seems to indicate that there are lots of folks out there, even in the mandolin playing world, that question the value of higher priced mandolins.

To me the answer is really simple: Buy what you like and can afford. Let others do the same. Go make music with what you have and enjoy it.

[Russ Donahue]

Hi Teak.
I think what you wrote was thoughtful and considerate - especially to many in the community. I have a question I'd like to ask of you, and have sent it as a PM.

Cheers,
Russ

[F-2 Dave]

OMG......... why don't we just tie the OP to a stake and have an old fashioned blood sacrifice for him daring to voice his opinion of some mandolins he tried, didn't care for, and then had the sheer audacity to voice his opinion they were overpriced.

Can we do that?

[rubydubyr]

ok guys...... the OP posted an OPinion. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is fine, calling them names is not and is childish.
For the record, I have an A style Gretsch. I think it has a beautiful sound. On the other hand, I think the F style looks super COOL!!! Not to mention, that scroll is a handy dandy spot to attach your strap. I don't like putting a string on the neck between the tuners and the frets on my A style. It has a tendency to impede my hand movement. And I REALLY don't like the idea of having someone attach a strap peg for me, I keep wondering if it would weaken the structure. I saw some pictures of people attaching their strap around the top part of the body, which is what I am currently doing. I also don't like doing that cause I keep wondering if it will eventually mar the finish, but its a work around so my hand is not impeded while playing. All of this, like most of what I post, and what others post are simply opinions..... Why get your undies in a bunch over it?

[rubydubyr]

Can we do that?

:))

[Bernie Daniel]

ok guys...... the OP posted an OPinion. Disagreeing with someone's opinion is fine, calling them names is not and is childish......

Did I miss the name calling?

Specifically, what names are you referring to?

I really do not think it worth my time to re-read this thread to find them -- if they exist.

BTW, earlier you mentioned the OP was "tarred and feathered" also.

[fatt-dad]

Nobody's ever been ugly to me or my handle.

fatt-dad

[lenf12]

Threads like this one piss me off.....

Len B. (using my name)
Clearwater, FL

[Cary Fagan]

I have one small point to make that I don't believe has been made yet. When you play an instrument for a good length of time, that instrument's sound can become the 'right' sound to you, the standard against which all else are now judged. When you play another instrument that has a different sound it can easily seem inferior as a result. In fact, it may just be different. In my experience, one has to play in instrument for days or even weeks to really decide on how much I like the sound of it. I've had instruments grow on me and others become irritating. We all need to be a little skeptical of judgments made standing in a music shop for a half hour.

[Steve Zawacki]

What's overpriced to me may be a bargain to someone else. That's just the way "commerce" works. I find a lot of things overpriced, especially when I know a goodly chunk of the price is the pro-rata share of the advertising used to tell me why I need this one and only this one.

I happen to agree with the OP, in the sense that "value" and "beauty" are personal perspectives. The OP is simply reporting it as he sees it. Different folk with other persectives based on whatever can argue, but in the end all they are saying is they have different subjective beliefs in what constitutes value and beauty. The last time I checked, there is no objective standard for those criteria.

The earlier Ferrari-Honda analogy was pretty good (in my subjective opinion). I wonder how many folk who drive Top Gear's* "reasonably priced car" (or equivalent) have multi-kilobuck mandolins versus how many folk who drive more exotic cars have mandolins in the $100-800 range? It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Kind of reminds me of the joke regarding the beggar sitting on the sidewalk holding a tin cup full of pencils and a sign hanging from the cup saying "Pencils - $25,000 each." When a passerby asked him why his pencils were priced that high, the beggar said, "I only need to sell one...."

* Top Gear - Long-Running UK TV show about cars which has been franchised in several countries

[Timbofood]

Well, no one says anyone has to buy the 22k mandolin do they!? It's your choice to enjoy what you like regardless of price. No reason to have such a bellyache session. I played a Derrington signed F-5 at Elderly some time back and it just didn't grab me, you know what, I didn't buy it. Back later, someone else did. Instruments are very personal items, they speak to us all differently.
Vive la difference, absolutely!

[rubydubyr]

Kind of reminds me of the joke regarding the beggar sitting on the sidewalk holding a tin cup full of pencils and a sign hanging from the cup saying "Pencils - $25,000 each." When a passerby asked him why his pencils were priced that high, the beggar said, "I only need to sell one...."

[/I]

Love it! :))

[allenhopkins]

I'm pretty sure I would. They sell for less than $50.00. :cool:

I think Petrus used "argue" in the sense of "disagree," rather than "advocate." "Argue" is a word that can be its own antonym:

I argued that $500 Rogues were overpriced, but Mr. X argued with me.

On the topic itself:

1. Obviously a sensitive one. Some see teak's initial post as unnecessarily slagging a luthier whom they consider to be identifiable through clues in that post. I'm relatively clueless on this, so I leave the sleuthing to others. Probably that luthier will succeed or fail regardless of what a single non-customer thinks of his/her pricing, however.

2. There seems to be limited informational potential, and much greater potential for controversy, in starting a thread explaining what someone doesn't like. Since buying an instrument is largely a matter of individual preference and resource availability, these variables don't readily transfer to others. Teak doesn't like F-model mandolins, others do, so what?

3. Having said that, impugning teak's motives, or the motives of others who disagree, is beside the point and just generates heat rather than light. If I've been guilty of that, I apologize. I do think that universalizing one's own preferences -- implying that those who have different preferences and make different choices, are misled -- is a pretty sure-fire way to get others stirred up. If that's the intention -- well, seems to be asking for heated contradiction.

4. Basically, pricing is a function of the market, and the market for top-line mandolins is small, idiosyncratic, and driven by factors other than strict acoustic quality. If a person is successfully selling his/her mandolinistic creations, at whatever price, there must be a market for them at that price. No one has to buy them, but someone apparently is buying them.

No one's a "bad guy" here; no one has to accept another's opinion as gospel, or use it to guide his/her buying choices. Could be just a casual observation, coupled with loyalty to a Givens mandolin that's served teak well for three decades plus.

Deep breaths, all...

[Teak]

I have one small point to make that I don't believe has been made yet. When you play an instrument for a good length of time, that instrument's sound can become the 'right' sound to you, the standard against which all else are now judged. When you play another instrument that has a different sound it can easily seem inferior as a result. In fact, it may just be different. In my experience, one has to play in instrument for days or even weeks to really decide on how much I like the sound of it. I've had instruments grow on me and others become irritating. We all need to be a little skeptical of judgments made standing in a music shop for a half hour.

Good point.

But $22,000 is still $22,000. I wonder how many of you who have $10,000 Ellis mandolins would have found this particular mandolin to be better than your Ellises. Or those with $22,000 Gilchrists would have considered this one to be equivalent.

Sorry to say. I spent 17 years outside the USA and came back to find pricing to have gone crazy. Just my humble opinion.

[dusty miller]

It's all in the eyes, ears and wallet of the beholder !

I agree with this.




I have made friends on this forum who know who I am. And I don't mind the owner of the forum knowing who I am. But I don't want the world knowing who I am. Not because I am ashamed of anything I say. But because there are lots of kinds of people in the world many of whom are unable to control themselves and I dont need that kind of hassle in my life.

So those of you who use your name, that is fine with me. Yes I do feel more connected by knowing it. On the other hand, just because others elect not to do so, does not in any way lesson the relevance of their post. And the "calling out" of such a thing as a bullying ploy certainly reinforces my decision.

--Astro

(hint: Not my real name)

This somehow bothers people that some of us don't choose to use are real names? Wow!

[Kowboy]

"Humble Opinion"? Maybe here's where we need to start. I'm seeing a vendetta and draw my conclusion at your signature. I'm also thinking maybe just a little too much egg nog or the wrong company appeared this season. At any rate I'm willing to give you a big break on this issue as I am not walking in your shoes. I hope you will take a little time and evaluate where this thread was supposed to go and maybe try and change it's course. If it is going as you planned then so be it. Did I mention that it is 59 degrees and very sunny here in Virginia. A promising day. Be Happy everyone!

[Teak]

No vendetta. I put the comment on the bottom as a joke, but apparently some F scroll owners are a bit sensitive. I never saw the point in paying over for a scroll that looks ugly as hell, especially from above the instrument looking down at the fret board. But if you're convinced it's beautiful then good for you!

But, I do like what I see these days with luthiers making 2-point or even 3-point mandolins. The points are not over the top like a scroll and probably don't add that much more to the price.

And, you know what? I still think a lot of mandolins out there are overpriced. And I am not angry with anyone.

[Pete Jenner]

It's all in the eyes, ears and wallet of the beholder !

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[f5joe]

Teak: You certainly are entitled to your opinion. The push back is due to your method of delivery. It's a good bit rude. Otherwise, carry on. I have a few scrolls to polish at the moment.

[Bernie Daniel]

I have one small point to make that I don't believe has been made yet. When you play an instrument for a good length of time, that instrument's sound can become the 'right' sound to you, the standard against which all else are now judged. When you play another instrument that has a different sound it can easily seem inferior as a result. In fact, it may just be different. In my experience, one has to play in instrument for days or even weeks to really decide on how much I like the sound of it. I've had instruments grow on me and others become irritating. We all need to be a little skeptical of judgments made standing in a music shop for a half hour.

Agreed!

And deciding that one (in this case your own) mandolin sounds better than a mandolin you are sampling when the other mandolin is not available so no back-to-back comparison can be made -- i.e., both picked in the same room, at the same time - makes the judgement even less reliable?

[sgarrity]

It took about 37 seconds to figure out what mandolin was being discussed here. I have not played it but I'd say $22k is certainly an ambitious price for it which is why it has sat there unsold for quite sometime. If it ever sells at anything even close to that price I'd love to talk to the buyer. I have a F5G that I'll sell for a mere $12k! Lol

[rubydubyr]

What I find very, very, VERY interesting is the amount of traffic and seemingly angry replies the orignal post is getting, meanwhile a thread titled Things this forum has done for you in ways you didn't expect! is getting only a few replies..... (so far anyway). :disbelief:

[Teak]

It took about 37 seconds to figure out what mandolin was being discussed here. I have not played it but I'd say $22k is certainly an ambitious price for it which is why it has sat there unsold for quite sometime. If it ever sells at anything even close to that price I'd love to talk to the buyer. I have a F5G that I'll sell for a mere $12k! Lol

Good on you!

I would like to clarify that I am sure it is the luthier who set the price, not the shop owner. That shop is legendary and the owner is to be commended for his sticking to the basics. If he had a decent non-F-scroll mandolin that I liked, I would certainly buy from him.

[Bernie Daniel]

Do you have a personal stake in this? Is that why you are so quick to heat the tar and gather the feathers?????

Not really. And to be frank I don't even know what you are talking about.

You've been much more "alarmed" than the OP who seems comfortable. Sure he/she has caught a little "heat" but its nothing serious. It has happened to us all at some time. The OP sees comfortable with the discussion and I think also has defended himself/herself well.

But I'm still curious rubydubyr, as documented in post #55, you accursed the rest of us of calling the OP "names".

I asked for an example but you did not reply. So can you or can't you give me that example of this "name calling"?

I hope you don't make accusations willy nilly?

[rubydubyr]

No Bernie, I don't make accusations willy nilly, but this will be my last reply to you, as for some reason you appear to be in attack mode and want to have the last word, and that is ok. You state you don't have the time to go back and read the posts, yet you appear to have considerable time to continue your attacks against various posters to this thread.
You can post another reply, as I am sure you will do immediately after you read this. I have no desire to have an online argument with you, or anyone for that matter who appears to have a really difficult time in realizing the OP was voicing an opinion of some mandolins he tried, and an opinion that they were over priced and an opinion of what he thought of an F scroll. You, on the other hand, appear to "get off" on attacking and arguing for that sake alone.
It doesn't matter that Teak doesn't like the F scroll and considers them ugly. He was not attacking your personally with his opinion of them simply because you possibly have one. As I stated I think they are cool looking, but I didn't feel personally attacked by his opinion.
So, I am done, post your reply, but don't expect another from me to you in return. Have a great day, eat some chocolate, have a cup of great fresh ground coffee, and relax.

[Kowboy]

In the words of Old Phil Robertson; "It's time to P on the campfire and move on boys." I think we all see where this is going.

[Teak]

4. Basically, pricing is a function of the market, and the market for top-line mandolins is small, idiosyncratic, and driven by factors other than strict acoustic quality. If a person is successfully selling his/her mandolinistic creations, at whatever price, there must be a market for them at that price. No one has to buy them, but someone apparently is buying them.


I missed this point earlier when reading through your post, Allen. This is an excellent point to bring up in regards to the pricing of upper-end instruments.

Mid- to lower-level instruments probably have enough buying and selling that the prices are close to what economists call the "market-clearing price". That Collings that I mentioned probably won't stay unsold at its current price because someone will jump on it, I am sure.

But at the upper end, where there is little buying and selling, there is not enough action to bring the prices towards that market clearing price. This is not just true of mandolins, but of just about anything that is priced out of range of the average person. Thus, it is really hard to know if a mandolin is overpriced or not without waiting to see how long it sits at that price, or if the seller has to start dropping the price until someone pays.