advice please on dye migration from case to finish

[stevedenver]

I have a Les Paul (stock nitro finish), which has been in a TKL case, case purchased in about 1999, and the case has bright light blue lining.

It has left faint traces of color in the finish at pressure points for the guitar, ie. neck supports (2) above and below case pocket, and lower bout edge.

The guitar is a 1983 Spotlight and I would have thought, well gassed out long ago, finish is rock hard.

Will this fade? I tired to lightly polish it out with Novus, and didn't see a change.
not terribly upset but, was wondering how to correct, if at all.

thoughts please.

[Greg Mirken]

In my experience it is next to impossible to remove the tint because the color migrates into the lacquer. You'd have to refinish the areas. I suggest you put small cotton flannel cloths under the guitar at those contact points. I suspect this color transfer is related to temperature, but I don't have proof.

Greg Mirken

[stevedenver]

In my experience it is next to impossible to remove the tint because the color migrates into the lacquer. You'd have to refinish the areas. I suggest you put small cotton flannel cloths under the guitar at those contact points. I suspect this color transfer is related to temperature, but I don't have proof.

Greg Mirken

thanks
guitar has been in basement, avg 58-64 degrees, in Colorado, avg humidity in area about 50%, sometimes a good deal less.

I have already taken precautions to shield contact points , and I , as you, fear its in the lacquer
my only hope is that it fades.

I know that the red dye used on the mahogany, on other new Historic les pauls, will often migrate from the neck area to the clear coat over the fingerboard binding, and then, typically about 1-2 years later will completely disappear

I know too that blue dye, like red is fairly unstable and may....fade from blue to light green tinge as the blue loses the red component.... who knows..since we are talking the presumably unknown chemical dye on the lining versus the aniline dye used on the wood......maybe ill leave it near my blacklight.......see what happens......clear coat is already fairly yellowed.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The very same thing happened to my Weber Fern when it had been in an Eastman Rect.Violin style case for 18 months or so. The maroon dye leeched into the cream binding in a few places & turned it very slightly pink. I trashed the case & bought a Hiscox case.
I don't know if it's only certain types of dye which will do this,or if it can happen with most dyes. My Lebeda mandolin has been in a TKL Rect.case for 5 years & shows no sighn of dye transfer. What to do about it - the colouration on the Weber was so small that i just left it as it was. I'd think that scraping the colouration off finish would just make matters worse. A total re-finish of the coloured areas is the only thing i can think of that would cure the problem - not a thing to contemplate with any ease of mind.
Greg - I understand your point re.temp maybe causing the problem. In the USA it's 'possible' that temp.had a part in it,but here in the 'cooler' UK,it played no part in my Weber/Eastman case colour transfer. I think that maybe certain dyes/finishes just react together to cause this. I did think of doing exactly what you suggested regarding shielding the contact points,unfortunately after i trashed the case.The Eastman case in all other aspects was excellent & i could easily have made a cotton cloth liner for it,:(
Ivan
127799

[stevedenver]

fwiw
this has happened in the past,
long ago Gibson had cheap Puerto rican cases, like 1968 -1972, purple lining, and those gassed out actually softening the nitro and leaving an imprint of the fuzz
more recently , like around 2009 or so, Gibson had bleeding , which prompted them to go to the rather boring white fuzz

no expert , but my guess, at least on the later incident, was that plasticizers in the nitro may reactivate whatever the synthetic fuzz is made of, or, vice versa

ivan totally agree that messing with the finish for such a minor bit of mess, is not well advised, as a refin will do more to drop value than a bit of discoloration

ill follow up with this , perhaps months in the future, and see if it fades

luckily for me, I have had no migration from my Loar style guardian Chinese case into my Brentrup. that would piss me off no end. I wonder , if daily removal prevents this?

the LP spotlight , had been a daily player, and then , I went acoustic for many many months at a time.....scary to think about, ie this latent potential which occurs with prolonged undisturbed contact....

[sunburst]

...my guess, at least on the later incident, was that plasticizers in the nitro may reactivate whatever the synthetic fuzz is made of, or, vice versa

Check with Cedar Creek (makers of TKL cases) to know for sure, but I'm fairly sure they use cotton fabric and not "synthetic fuzz" to line their cases. I would have thought the material would be color fast enough that the color would not migrate into the lacquer, but apparently it can.

[bart mcneil]

I am often surprised at the garishness of the colors used inside many cases. It would be simple for the manufacturer to simply stop using those colors, many of which are apparently unstable, and eliminate the problem. Or perhaps it is the synthetic fuzz which doesn't take the dye that well. But in anycase the problem should be easily correctable.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Re-finishing small, localised areas on an instrument is very difficult.The area to be re-finished is next to an area(s) which is fine,but as soon as you remove the damaged finish,any re-finishing will overlap the un-damaged finish,which usually causes problems,more especially if the 'finishing' lacquer is coloured.
From Bart - "...the problem should be easily correctable.". I tend to agree Bart - but - many of our cases despite being well made,are made down to a price & manufactures will go for the least expensive option to keep prices low. They're certainly not going to conduct experiments to find which materials/colours react with which instrument finishes.
If anybody thinks that there might be a problem with their case,i'd do as i should have done myself,& make a cotton bag out of a white pillow case for my mandolin. Right now i have a Black 'fuzzy material'' lined Gator case,a Travelite case with it's neutral Grey ('Gray' to you folks ) lining,which i can't even imagine would leech any colour,& my rectanguar Blue 'fuzzy material'' lined TKL
"American Vintage" case,which hasn't affected any mandolin that's been in it. Hopefully,the incidence of colour leeching in instrument cases is pretty rare - but keep a watch out for it whatever make of case you use. Better safe than sorry,
Ivan

[bart mcneil]

But what is preventing case makers from doing the same thing as using a cotton sheet lining in their cases instead of that awful garish fluff? It may not be possible to prevent mando builders from using any finish they want, but the case makers are responsible too for putting out a product that is so unstable that it can discolor your instrument just using the case as it is supposed to be used.

[stevedenver]

I like garish colors......makes my instruments look even more precious, like a jewel box. LOL .
Last thing I want is black, where I can see stuff in the case, or white, which turns dirty in no time.

I get its not an easy fix, too.
what I was hoping for, is if someone had experienced this phenom and might know if it 'goes away' over time, or, if there's some way to expedite it.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Bart - I suppose that a 'fuzzy' lining material is seen as 'padding' as much as being decorative. Travelite seem to have got it right to me - a smooth brushed cotton type lining,with the actual padding behind it. As i said in my last post,the makers don't ''try things out'' to see if there's any danger,they use what they deem fit for use. As it is,it may very well not be the case maker's fault. It could be a faulty batch of material from the fabric makers / suppliers.
From Steve - "...if it 'goes away' over time, or, if there's some way to expedite it.". Steve - once any leeching of colour has started,i can't imagine anybody hanging onto & using the case long enough to find out if it does stop !. I can't see any way of expediting it either, unless we can discover the trigger mechanism that kicks it off. As i said in my last post,if i still had the Eastman case,i'd have made a white cotton bag for the mandolin.Hopefully with that barrier around it,the leeching out of colour would stop. Also,if it were to continue,then the colour would be pretty obvious on the white cotton,
Ivan;)

[stevedenver]

Ivan, my comment was based on what I have seen in my historic les pauls, where the color stain from the mahog goes into the clear cost, often making the binding appear pink, and then, over maybe a year, disappears entirely-I have had this on 3 new gibbys and have read where others did as well, and that was from stain under the finish, as opposed to that on 'top'-


I have indeed put cotton on the offending contact points in the case, ie a nice soft cotton face cloth over the sting compartment and neck supports.

btw merry xmas to you all