E String Loops Slipping at Tension

[vulpes_vulpes]

I have been breaking E strings pretty regularly for the past few months. Maybe I break one E string every 2 weeks. Sometimes they break when I play, but recently they've been breaking as I put them on my instrument.

The past two have broken in the same way: Just before they reach tension they detune slightly, and I found that the loop of the string at the tailpiece is cinching down on itself like a noose causing the string to detune slightly until there is no more slack in the "noose" and the string snaps.

What's going on here? I'm playing D'addario J74's. Any help would be awesome.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Vulpes-vupes - "Red Fox" ??. Until 18 months ago,i used J74's on 2 mandolins = 4 changes per.mandolin per year = 8 sets per year for 7 years = 56 sets. I never had one string break. It's been known that fake D'Addario strings have been being sold.To that end,D'Addario have a 'fake checker'. Go to this page & follow the instructions.It will let you know if your strings are the real deal or not. http://www.daddario.com/PlayReal.Page?ActiveID=3825&sid=e8a5748f-7ff8-496e-8768-f5106fd0219b
If they come up as genuine,then i'd contact D'Addario directly & send them a sample of a defective string(s). D'Addario are good company who take pride in their products & you will get a reply,
Ivan;)
PS - Read the D'Addario string thread on here by ''mandopotter''. It looks like he's recently had a problem as well.

[Kowboy]

Thanks for the heads up Ivan. After visiting the site, I'd think that his problem could very well be from counterfeit strings w/ an inferior winding loop. Good eye! I'll be careful in the future on my purchases. I have used EBAY, but only use music stores that will give discounts on multiple purchases.

[vulpes_vulpes]

It's hard for me to believe that the chain music store where I buy my strings is selling counterfeits, but it could be...
Is it simply that the loop is defective, or is there something mechanically that might be happening to cause the loop to be overly tensioned while the string is still under pitch?

[eadg145]

I had this happen on some ball end E strings a couple of years ago. I believe this happens from time to time, but only very rarely. I went through the process Ivan described above, and the D'Addario rep was extremely helpful and more than compensated me for my troubles. Great strings, great company.

[Kowboy]

I agree w/ that, but I didn't see that you stated you were using a chain store. I know that I once purchased a Chinese knock off from EBAY and it nearly cost me $99.00. A pair of BEATS Headphones for the grandson. PAYPAL credited my account for the loss. I should also realized that rip off artist are attacking the music industry as well.
It's hard for me to believe that the chain music store where I buy my strings is selling counterfeits, but it could be...
Is it simply that the loop is defective, or is there something mechanically that might be happening to cause the loop to be overly tensioned while the string is still under pitch?

[sunburst]

What kind of hooks does your tailpiece have? The reason I ask is; smooth, round hooks or posts for the string loops on the tailpiece are prone to this kind of string loop behavior (slipping like a noose). On the old Gibson type tailpiece, going "around the corner" with the strings helps considerably with the situation. If you have a tailpiece with smooth, round posts, it may continue to be a problem from time to time.

[mandroid]

The thing you describe is why Gibson's stamped steel tail pieces have all those extra Hooks in them,
the plain ones bend around, at an angle to take some of the tension off the loop, hooks.


some electric guitar strings get a spot of solder on them ,

perhaps a campaign to get the same on thin loop plain strings

can be mounted from the membership, here..

[Willie Poole]

In over 50 years of playing I have never looped the unwound strings around those extra pegs and I have never had a string do what you are describing, of course I don`t use D`Addario strings either....Check your tuner and make sure you are on the correct scale, 440 is what you need to be tuning to, a lot of tuners can be made to go to other scales and maybe yours has been accidently switched to a higher scale and the tension on the strings is a lot tighter, also try a different brand of strings or even a different gauge and see what happens...

[sunburst]

In over 50 years of playing I have never looped the unwound strings around those extra pegs and I have never had a string do what you are describing...

It doesn't usually happen on Gibson-style tailpieces even when we don't wrap the strings around the corner because the punched-out hooks are not round. When the string loop is kinked by the hook, it is less likely to slip.

[David Rambo]

I had a 3-4 E strings let go at the loop, also. I was getting my strings, J74's, from Elderly, so I doubt that they were counterfeit. I never was able to figure out why, so I just kept some spare E strings on hand.

[ddawson2010]

Gents - don from D'Addario here - interesting to hear about the slipping lock-twist. I'll check with our QC department first thing on Monday. I'll also check with Customer Service to see if they're hearing anything in this regard. This is news to me as I haven't heard anything on the J74's. If you shoot me an email, don.dawson2@daddario.com - we'll get you some replacements to make up for the slippage. But also, please be careful where you purchase your strings. Reliable dealers are most likely getting them directly from us or a distributor. Counterfeits are a real issue and not just for our brand. Thanks for the heads up on this and our apologies for the inconvenience.

[vulpes_vulpes]

What kind of hooks does your tailpiece have? The reason I ask is; smooth, round hooks or posts for the string loops on the tailpiece are prone to this kind of string loop behavior (slipping like a noose).

I have the smooth round posts you describe. It makes a lot of sense that a kink in the string would alleviate pressure from the string loops.



some electric guitar strings get a spot of solder on them ,

perhaps a campaign to get the same on thin loop plain strings

This is interesting... I do some solder work around the house from time to time and could easily solder my E strings before putting them on my mandolin. Any thoughts on this?


Gents - don from D'Addario here...Thanks for the heads up on this and our apologies for the inconvenience.

Thanks Don! That's awesome to have some support here.

[sunburst]

I have the smooth round posts you describe.

We have a response from the maker of the strings (thanks!) saying they're taking in this info, and checking with QC. Perhaps the maker of the tailpiece will also see this and consider improving the design.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Well,what did i say regarding D'Addario being a good company ?. A real vote of thanks to Don Dawson,
Ivan

[Paul Kotapish]

This same thing happened to me this past week when I was putting on a new set of D'Addario J-75s while getting ready for a run of the California Revels shows in Oakland. Both E-string loops slipped into the noose situation when I brought them up to tension. I buy my strings in bulk--usually two or three boxes at a time--from known dealers such as Elderly or FQM or JustStrings, so I'd be surprised if they were knockoffs.

I really like D'Addario strings and have purchased well over a thousand sets of them over the years for mandolins and guitars over the years, but this slipping-E-string thing has happened to me numerous times, and I had a whole box of them with this problem a few years back.

And while using the wraparound tines on the Gibson-style locking tailpiece might reduce the problem, it's happened to me on all sorts of tailpieces, and the Gibson-style is no longer ubiquitous, so it's a problem for anyone using an alternative style tailpiece--Allen, James, Monteleone, Weber, Gilchrist, et al.

D'Addario has always been excellent with customer service and good about replacing the faulty strings, but that isn't really the issue.

The money and the hassle are the least of it.

I need a string that I can depend on for a performance. On more than one occasion I've had the E's slip just as I was about to get on stage for a show. On one occasion they both slipped with the first strum of the first song on the main stage at a festival in Shetland--the occurrence of which made it into the review of the concert in the local paper! To make matters worse, both replacement strings did the same thing when I was trying to replace them backstage. By the time I made it back on stage we were already well into the set.

I need to know that I can count on the strings coming up to tension and staying in tune every time I change them, and I don't want to have to get out the soldering iron every time I put on new E strings.

Again, I really like D'Addario strings except for this issue--and I'll continue to but their guitar strings--but this is a big issue that they still haven't resolved.

[sunburst]

...it's a problem for anyone using an alternative style tailpiece--Allen, James, Monteleone, Weber, Gilchrist, et al...

Not necessarily.
I know that Bill James changed the hooks on his tailpiece from round to squared for this very reason. Unwound strings could sometimes slip on the round hooks before the change.
FWIW, I have never had a report of string loops slipping on one of my tailpieces. I suppose it is possible for faulty string loops to slip on nearly any tailpiece, but I've only heard of loops slipping (and experienced it happening) on round, smooth tailpiece hooks. That is the main reason I asked the question here, to see if it had happened to someone on a tailpiece with other than round hooks or posts.

[Paul Kotapish]

Not necessarily.
I know that Bill James changed the hooks on his tailpiece from round to squared for this very reason. Unwound strings could sometimes slip on the round hooks before the change.
FWIW, I have never had a report of string loops slipping on one of my tailpieces. I suppose it is possible for faulty string loops to slip on nearly any tailpiece, but I've only heard of loops slipping (and experienced it happening) on round, smooth tailpiece hooks. That is the main reason I asked the question here, to see if it had happened to someone on a tailpiece with other than round hooks or posts.

Interesting, John. The instruments I've played most over the past 20 years have both had tailpieces with round posts, but I have also had this happen on a Gibson-style tailpiece, too, if I didn't use the wraparound feature.

I went through this in a fair amount of detail with the D'Addario folks about 10 years ago--sent them photos and actual faulty strings--and at the time, the consensus seemed to be that the problem strings had slightly fewer twists/wraps.

And again, I have absolutely nothing against D'Addario, but this has never happened with equivalently sized singles from GHS, for example.

[Kowboy]

I have an Allen T/P and admittedly am on only my second set of D"Addarios. To this point I have not experienced any loop slip. If it was solely the T/P, looks like it would happen w/ more regularity. Again I've only put on 2 sets of D'Addario's to this point. The T/P never changes so it must be something in the strings quality.

[sunburst]

If it was solely the T/P, looks like it would happen w/ more regularity.

True enough, and I don't think anyone said it was solely the tailpiece, but I don't think it is solely the strings either in most cases.

[Kowboy]

So what is next? Improperly installed strings? Maybe too much tension. I'd think Paul K surely knows how to put them on. Puzzling!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Re. counterfeit 'anything'. I don't know how these crooks do it,but all manner of counterfeit goods are being found in highly reputable stores & supermarkets. From drugs,even those only available on prescription,to clothing,foodstuffs,cosmetics - almost any type of product that you can name,counterfeits are worming their way in,& the sellers are as un-aware of it as we are until it's reported,usually by an unsuspecting buyer.Buying strings from any store,even those as highly reputable as Elderley Instruments / Janet Davis etc.,won't be any guarantee that fakes haven't been sold to those stores.They're the victims just as much as we are & highly reputable manufacturers are taking the hit for it as well. Obviously D'Addario, being the excellent company they are,have been aware of what's going on & they've given us a way of checking their product.
In many ways,the 'end user' - us,are the watchdogs for fakes. If you suspect that a product from a reputable company might be a fake,especially if it's a product you've used without problems for a long while,then notify the company. It might be a faulty batch - then again it might not be,& some of these fakes can be very harmful indeed.
I apologise for 'sort of' de-railing this thread,but as Don Dawson says,D'Addario have been aware of fakes for a long while now,& instrument strings are only the tip of the iceberg,:(
Ivan;)

[Willie Poole]

I think the way to get rid of the fake strings is for music stores and dealers to just order directly from the maker of the string, then they would know they are getting a true product....If the dealers are buying from anyone that gives them a good deal then fakes are more likely to pop up more often....

Willie

[ddawson2010]

Interesting, John. The instruments I've played most over the past 20 years have both had tailpieces with round posts, but I have also had this happen on a Gibson-style tailpiece, too, if I didn't use the wraparound feature.

I went through this in a fair amount of detail with the D'Addario folks about 10 years ago--sent them photos and actual faulty strings--and at the time, the consensus seemed to be that the problem strings had slightly fewer twists/wraps.

And again, I have absolutely nothing against D'Addario, but this has never happened with equivalently sized singles from GHS, for example.

Paul - thanks for sharing that info. I'm assuming you talked to George when this occurred but maybe not, 10 years was a while back- shoot me an email, we'll gladly replace the strings. But also realize that playing with confidence is what you're looking for, so we'll understand if you'd rather not.. In speaking with our Customer Service and QC team, we have not heard of any issues from consumers currently. So we believe that this is isolated. Certainly counterfeit strings are something we're seeing more of but as others have said here - purchasing from a reliable dealer helps eliminate this issue. We're now packaging mandolin strings with codes, so we can have players visit our Play Real site as well as guitar and bass players. You can check your strings here, if you have the new packaging - www.daddario.com/PLAYREAL

don.dawson2@daddario.com

[Verne Andru]

I've used ordinary solder whenever this becomes an issue. Some pro guitar tech's automatically solder the windings on new strings before installing as a matter of course.

[Timbofood]

Forty plus years and I have not had an issue with either GHS or D'addario strings. For me, it speaks volumes to have D'addario representatives weigh in here, a company who believes in it's product and, is willing to do what it takes for customer satisfaction is refreshing!
Having had personal dealings with Mr. Dave Holcomb at GHS years ago, their commitment to satisfaction was equal at every turn. I am always surprised when I hear people having so much trouble with strings, I have changed thousands of strings between my personal instruments and store stock, so few string related failures tells me that these folks understand what they are doing.
Thank you Mr. Dawson for your attention on this issue.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Timbofood - "...was equal at every turn.". Was that just on the 'wound' strings ?. Sorry about that Tim.:redface:
I totally agree with your comments regarding manufacturers backing up their products & it does give one a large degree of comfort to know that they're aware of our concerns,
Ivan;)

[Jeff Budz]

For what it's worth, I also had this issue with 2 sets of Elixir strings a few years ago. I reported it and they were nice enough to send a few sets to me. I experienced it on a Gibson tailpiece as well as a James. It was really apparent when I tugged on the string and watched the loop close up like a noose. Soldering the loop would certainly prevent the issue but that's kind of an extreme measure.

[Steve Gray]

I had the same issue with some Martin strings a few months ago. I went through about 5 E strings before I finally gave up and took my mandolin to the shop. He was able to put one on without any trouble. He also told me that if they come unwound you can re-wind them (they are just loops after all). I wish I had known that before I went through 5 sets. :crying:

I don't think I ever figured out exactly what the problem was, but I don't buy Martin strings any longer. I use the D'Addario J74's now. I haven't had any problems with them.

[Lord of the Badgers]

It's hard for me to believe that the chain music store where I buy my strings is selling counterfeits, but it could be...

tell that to the aircraft industry ;)