Grisman, his Gibson and that *tone*

[Vincent]

There's a quality of Grisman's dynamic tone that I quite like- it's very audible on pared-down releases like Garcia/Grisman (The Thrill is Gone comes to mind). His attack is very strong, so strong that the note kind of distorts & bends. Very punctuated, usually a single note or accented beginning of a run...you can really hear the tone decay.

I know it's a combination of his attack, his Loar, & his recording preferences. But if you know the tone I'm talking about, do you believe it's possible without an 80 yr old Gibson F5? Or is it just subtle string bending? Not an earthshaking issue, but inquiring minds want to know.

[sunburst]

do you believe it's possible without an 80 yr old Gibson F5?
Absolutely!

[Klaus Wutscher]

Its definitely not the mandolin. Back when he played his Monteleone (which is as different to a Loar as you can get) his tone was quite similar. Also, check out the Tone Poem series: whatever he plays it always sounds like , well, Grisman. That´s not to say that you should not get the best instrument you can get but when it comes to tone, most seasoned players will probably agree that after an initial adjustment they can get THEIR tone out of almost any instrument. They may get it out easier on a particular instrument, though.

[kudzugypsy]

it has nothing to do with a 80yo mandolin...as Klaus said, check out any of the Tone Poems CD's and you can hear his unmistakable style come thru reguardless of the instrument.

if its the bending notes, they take a while to get on a mandolin due to the 2 chorus of strings, and the short scale. but it only requires a quick 'push' or 'pull' to get that sound. the attack is ALL in the right hand.

[Vincent]

at the risk of sounding picky, the distorted tone I'm talking about is not present on the Tone Poems releases, to my ear. Yes, he sounds like Grisman on everything he plays, but this specific bent blown-out note tone is a subset of "sounds like Grisman", if you will. Klaus, can you name some Grisman music recorded with his Monteleone?

[Philip Halcomb]

I know the tone you speak of, Grisman is probably my biggest influence on the mandolin so I tend to learn all of his chops that I can. Sometime while playing I hear that tone come out but I'm by all means no master at pulling out his tone. But it seems to me as posted before that it's all in the right hand. He really pounds that thing and that's where the distortion comes through. Also, he likes the D string alot, sometimes rather than fretting the first fret on the A string he'll fret the 8th fret on the D string, and that gives an incredible sound. I suggest you check out the video he made with Doc Watson that's for sale on his site if you're interested in seeing close up first hand how he plays. But the tone is definitely cool. I found after awhile that combining his style with the styles of Bill Monroe, Frank Wakefield, and Sam Bush I kind of came up with my own thing. That's the cool thing about influences. So my opinion is that it's definitely not the mandolin, he played a 1925 fern for years before getting his loar. He can take any POS and make it sound great. Take care...

[Jeff A]

In Savannah,at the Mando Madness and the DGQ5 concert, he was playing an 81 Gilchrist, according to Don Stiernberg. It had a distinctive growl to it that was just dandy . Is Crusher on hiatus?

[mandopete]

Is it possible we're confusing the idea of "tone" with that of "style"? David Grisman has an unmistakable style, no matter what instrument he is playing.

[Klaus Wutscher]

Vincent- he definitely played the monte on DAWG 80 which is my personal favourtite which unfortunately is not rereleased as a CD; the masters are currently rotting in a vault somewhere; some brilliant company policy I guess. The early 80ies were his Monte period as far as I know.

[Rob Griffin]

On the "Here Today" album/disc there is a great version of "Lonesome River". Grisman's break is a thing of beauty to be sure but there is this one note toward the end of the break that I think is the sound you are talking about. It's like this one note is fired from a gun! Everytime I listen to that cut I find myself just waiting for that one note. It slays me everytime. I'm not sure how he does it but he sure does. I'm sure the right hand has a lot to do with it but there is something about the timing of the noting with his left hand that makes it all work.

Rob

[kudzugypsy]

vincent,
if you like that aspect of grismans playing, check out the 'Bluegrass Reunion' CD. it has that EXACT tone that your talking about. almost like the mando is breaking up from too much level, but its not the recording, its his playing. also a great example of grismans 'straighter' BG playing. a great disc, one of Red Allen's last projects.

[SternART]

Jeff, haven't read much about Savannah, how 'bout starting a thread. Grisman played the Gil at Wgrass this year too, but I saw him play both the Loar and the Gil the other night, in fact he handed me both to try out.

[Jeff A]

Arthur, look at the Savannah Music Festival thread. To bad your Heiden wingding is not a few weks later. I would have loved to stop in to visit on the way to band camp in Santa Cruz

[danoNC]

I have wondered about how Grisman gets this "effect" as well. It seems to me to be a subtle bend and it is used throughout the Martin Taylor/Grisman "I'm beginning to see the light" album. I think it really fits well in a jazz context.

[jmcgann]

I did a workshop at Berklee with Mr. D. Grisman a few years ago. We swapped mandos (yes, the famous '24 fern Loar), and guess what? I didn't sound anything like him (yeah, big surprise!).

He played my Zeidler, and guess what? He sounded JUST LIKE HIM!

I am not against The Gear Quest, but most (or if you like, many) people spend WAY more time obsessing over instruments than their own musicianship. The sound is in your hands, and given a decent instrument, you'll sound like you. A great instrument makes you sound even MORE like you. So cool, and you can only earn it- you can't buy it!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lefty&French]

Thanks for this thread, Vincent...
and thanks a lot John for this answer: music isn't just gear!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BluegrassPhilfromFrance]

Thanks for this thread, Vincent...
and thanks a lot John for this answer: music isn't just gear!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
But I've heard you were about to have a mandolin built for you by Hervé Coufleau so if gear doesn't matter, let's go back to the old Ibanez ... ah, ah, ah ... j't'ai bien eu http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Daniel Nestlerode]

John's right. Doesn't matter if I play my Capek Old Era (bought used for <$2000.00) or my friend's >$20,000.00 Gilchrist Model 5 (or his ~$3000 Givens A5 for that matter), I sound like me. Certainly, the difference between my Capek and his Gil isn't worth $18,000.00 to $20,000.00. Knowing this, I remind myself that happiness is wanting what you already have. I do my best to be as good a player as possible, that way when I can move up I'll be able to take maximum advantage.

Still I think the original idea of the post was a question about how Dawg gets that note. Turns out (luckily for us) that it's all technique and no equipment. You know that weird feedback note that David Gilmore gets in "Comfortably Numb" just before he launches into the solo? That's both technique AND equipment. If you learn the technique but try it on a Telecaster running straight into an amp you won't get it. You need a Strat and a couple of effects set just so before it comes to you. This is why I say we're lucky and why I love acoustic music. No engineering skills required and more often than not it's technique rather than instrument. :cool:

best,
Daniel

[Harry H]

#No engineering skills required and more often than not it's technique rather than instrument. :cool:
You don't think maybe a couple of $2,000 condenser microphones have anything to do with what you hear Grisman play on a CD?

Methinks if you heard him play it live in the studio and heard it later
on the CD you would be suprised at the difference.

[glauber]

I think it's the Dawg picks that do it!

http://www.bigcitystring.com/pdawg.gif

You're in luck, i have them for sale for only $25 (but only for my friends here at the Cafe). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Windflite]

Reading this thread, golfer Lee Trevino's somewhat famous quote seems appropriate; When asked what kind of clubs he carries he simply replies, "It's the indian...not the arrows."

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[goose 2]

I too have ben dumbfounded by some of Grisman's notes that seem to hit you in the head like a ball ping hammer. His solo on "Ralph's Banjo Special" (Hold On We're Strumming cd) is just one example of many that this occurs. On the Tone Poem cd I hear it only on "I Am a Pilgrim" which I think is the only tune on which he plays his Loar. His leads, phrasing, and tone are distinctly his own and man I love it, but I think his tone is at his absolute best when he is playing his Loar. I can pretty easily tell whether he is playing the Monte, Fern or Loar on his recordings. During nearly every phrase there are certain notes that are a dead geveaway that "the Loar is in the house". I think that only Grisman could get his tone from a mando but he gets his best tone from his Loar. If the instrment did not matter in regards to tone, then none of us from the pros to the hackers would be constanly seeking that next mandolin wiht the better tone than the last one.

[mando bandage]

Reading this thread, golfer Lee Trevino's somewhat famous quote seems appropriate; #When asked what kind of clubs he carries he simply replies, "It's the indian...not the arrows." # #

And to drive (no pun intended) the point home, Lee Trevino also talks about playing the entire course with only one club in his hand to develop his touch. #Seems the same logic would apply to a stable of mandos as a bag of clubs. #More the touch than the object.

R

[erick]

As someone who spends a lot of time recording acoustic instruments on good equipment, I have to second John McGann's post. Having recorded John playing his Zeidler a few times, I can tell you he sounds amazingly like the John McGann I've heard recorded at other studios, and though he's an amazing player, his tone is always more like McGann than Grisman. A good thing too.

Grisman's tone, from my engineer/dork perspective, has a lot to do with his pick attack ( bodacious), pick angle, the way he holds the mando, and all the synapses firing away in his brain, not necessarily in that order . His recorded tone also has something to do with the type of mandolin and pick he's playing , the microphone type and placement, the mic preamp, any eq, compression, or limiting used( mandos have huge attacks, and some form of compression or limiting is pretty common in the recording world- some of this may account for the distortion you wrote about), the recording format, and a few other things too dull to mention.

If I had to pick one factor over all the others, I'd pick the synapses by a country mile.

Now please excuse me ; I'm off to try and steal some John McGann licks!

[mandolooter]

Im in total agreement with Mr mcgann and its the main reason im not "on the hunt" for another mandolin. Im still learnin how to work the sound outta this one! Of course there's always banjos, guitars, ukes, octaves, etc, etc., etc...:)

[Vincent]

actually, I'm only following David's advice- if there's a sound in your head, try everything you can to reproduce it. of course, his distorted note thing isn't the *only* tone I'm working on : )
jmcgann- I agree with your emphasis on musicianship- and I think "the quest" for certain sounds is part of that. erick- your post makes much sense to me. danoNC thinks it's string bending...compression and bending...hmmm.

heard Grisman once describe a luthier (who could this have been...Sumi? my memory fails me) making him a mandolin who asked him all these preference questions- Grisman's ever humble response- "you just build it, I'll make it sound good!"