Mic for recording mandolin and violin

[nickster60]

I know that this has been covered in the past but I am not sure the violin was also included. I am using garage band and Focusrite interface. I have a Shute sm58 but that doesn't get it done . I think a condenser mic is the way to go but there are some many to choose from.

[9lbShellhamer]

I'm about to order a Blue Yeti USB mic (http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Microphones-Yeti-USB-Microphone/dp/B002VA464S), with no interface.

I'm planning on using Audacity.

I'm mainly posting to following any recommendations that users follow up to this post with.

[BradKlein]

It would probably help to mention what you're trying to accomplish, your budget, your experience level, and what kind of music you're recording and in what kind of setting. It's easy to get lots of random 'advice' on line, but not that useful.

[foldedpath]

The first two questions that come to mind are 1) what's your budget, and 2) what kind of room will you be recording in?

Mandolins are a bit more forgiving for room acoustics, but a fiddle is a different beast to record. It's loud, and interacts much more strongly with the surrounding room acoustics. Getting a good room sound is half the battle, when recording a fiddle. Generally speaking, you want a mix of reflective and absorbing surface materials on floors and walls, and a high ceiling really helps. I've recorded fiddle in a room with a 12 foot ceiling and that's about the minimum I'd want to do it in. You can mic it up close with baffling nearby if the room acoustics are terrible, but that's not a good way to record fiddle if you can help it.

I mentioned the room ahead of the mic, because that influences the mic choice. Ribbon mics can be nice on fiddle and mandolin, in the way they naturally roll off some of the harsher high frequencies. But ribbon micss are almost all figure-8 pattern and will pick up more of the room than a condenser mic set to cardioid pattern.

There are some stylistic choices here too. I've recorded far more fiddle (violin) with a pair of small diaphragm condensers than I have with ribbons, because it's mostly been Classical or Irish trad music where a "realistic" capture is important. The sound of the bow hair hissing on the string, for example.... which is harder to get with a ribbon mic. A more Pop or Bluegrass fiddle project might work better with a ribbon mic where you're not getting as much top-end detail.

Finally, if you can afford two mics then I'd strongly recommend that for stereo recording. It's great on mandolin, but essential on fiddle to get a good 3D presence of the instrument. You might even want additional mics like that SM58 placed further back to get some room sound, if the acoustics are good enough.

If you're on a tight budget you could get a pair of Audio-Technica Pro 37 small diaphragm condensers for around $130 each to start with. The sky's the limit for more expensive mics.... I record mandolin, fiddle, and guitar with Mojave Audio MA-100 tube and Neumann KM-184 small diaphragm condenser mics, and these would probably be considered midrange mics in their class.

Good ribbon mics tend to be expensive in my experience, and I haven't kept up with recommended models at the entry level these days. I'm sure you'll get some recommendations. The ribbon mics I use are Royer R121's, which I think is a nice compromise between dark/classic ribbon tone and a more modern high frequency sound. They're expensive but extremely well made, and have very good resale value. You will need a preamp with plenty of clean gain if you use a passive ribbon mic like this, but there are more good preamps like that on the market now than there used to be. I use an AEA TRP preamp with mine. If your preamp is a little noisy when run at the higher gain settings, then you might want to stick with condenser mics for now.

Good luck with the project!

[nickster60]

What I am trying to accomplish is some simple home recording. The room is just a spare bedroom and budget would be on the modest side. I would just like to add some mandolin and violin to my recordings. The other instuments have been easy I know violins are fussy. Some of the music is coffee house stuff and the rest is bluegrass.most of the songs have guitar and bass(electric).

[oldwave]

I am a big fan of Cascade Microphones for an inexpensive ribbon
Bear in mind though you would need a Cloudlifter to get the requisite level with your Focusrite.
the other mic recommendations are fine, I really like my Ribbon for violin and harsher female vox

[nickster60]

I was wondering if this may work I have a Carvin AG 300 that has 4 or 5 xlr mic inputs. It also has a balanced xlr out could I go form the Carvin to the Focusrite.

[foldedpath]

I was wondering if this may work I have a Carvin AG 300 that has 4 or 5 xlr mic inputs. It also has a balanced xlr out could I go form the Carvin to the Focusrite.

I wouldn't recommend going through that Carvin amp, because you'll have the tone controls inline. Generally speaking, you don't want extra circuitry ahead of the interface.

Which Focusrite model do you have?

[BradKlein]

The AT Pro 37 recommended above or another small diaphragm condenser seems like a good route given what you've described about your set up.


What I am trying to accomplish is some simple home recording. The room is just a spare bedroom and budget would be on the modest side. I would just like to add some mandolin and violin to my recordings. The other instuments have been easy I know violins are fussy. Some of the music is coffee house stuff and the rest is bluegrass.most of the songs have guitar and bass(electric).

[Nevin]

I have had good luck recording mandolin at home with a Rode N1A. The only bowed instrument I have used it on is an upright bass which does not have the high frequency response problems of a violin though. I also have a 14' ceiling.

[nickster60]

Focusrite Solo

[Marty Jacobson]

I run two Sterling ST-31 small diaphragm condensers through a PreSonus AudioBox. The quality of this combo is far superior to a Blue Yeti, which I use for podcasts/video voiceover at my teaching job. The AudioBox was $70 used, the Sterlings were $40 apiece, all from Guitar Center Used.

[foldedpath]

Focusrite Solo

Okay, that model only has +48db gain, so you'll need something like a Cloudlifter (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CL1Cloud)with a passive ribbon mic, or else an active ribbon model (which adds to the cost). I'd recommend starting with a small diaphragm condenser mic like the AT Pro 37 instead. If you're getting more high frequency detail than you want on the fiddle, you can just roll it off with EQ when you do your mix.

I do like ribbon mics for many things, but when you're starting out with recording acoustic instruments, I think it's good to learn basic mic technique with a small diaphragm condenser mic first. Experiment with ribbon mics later on.

[nickster60]

This whole recording business is a another kettle of fish.

[nickster60]

I have been looking at the Carvin CTM 100 which is a rebranded Nady mic. It seems really versatile but I am not sure how practical.

I see lots of used mics on craigslist but I am not sure what you are really getting

[Steve Ostrander]

MXL 990 is a very reasonably priced condenser mic. You can pick them up used for <$50, and they make a USB input model.

[foldedpath]

This whole recording business is a another kettle of fish.

It can be very simple, or it can be one of the deepest and most expensive money pits of a hobby you can fall into. Take it in small steps at first.
:)

[nickster60]

I have great sounding mandolin and I would like it at least sound ok on my recordings. My wife Taylor sound very good thru the focusrite and so does my Fender bass. The SM58 works great on my sax but that isn't my main instrument. The mandolin and violin are so it would be nice get a decent sound.

[foldedpath]

For general information to add to the pile, here is a survey article of different approaches and mic selections for fiddle recording:

http://www.cbaontheweb.org/cba_news.asp?newsid=7927

FWIW, I learned my main technique for mic placement on fiddle from an old post by Darol Anger (can't find the link now). He mentioned 2 mics, with one aimed down from 2 feet or more away, around 45 degrees to the front on the treble side. And then another one at 45 degrees from the front on the bass side aimed up from below, at the back side of a fiddle played by a standing musician. Because the back resonates too, and this gives a nice rich effect if the room is right. It doesn't work for everything, and sometimes you just need a closer mic pair. Or a single mic. Just thought I'd toss that in here.

A fiddle is one of the most difficult instruments to record well, so don't expect to get it right away, or match what you hear on pro recordings. Start collecting samples of fiddle recordings where you like the sound, and use those as a reality check for what you're doing. Small steps...

[nickster60]

I think the violin is going to give me fits. My violin is very much set as a classical violin it is bright and projects well. I guess my style would be a cross between classical and Jay Unger. I also prefer a very clear tone. Thank you for all of the information I have plenty to learn. If I had to pick a perfect violin sound it would be Joshua Bell but I think I should lower my sight a bunch.

[almeriastrings]

I would keep this simple.

The Focusrite Solo is a good sounding little interface, and considerably better than a USB mic option... it only has one mic input. however, so stereo recording with this one is not possible, and as noted above, it is not well suited to low output microphones. Stick with a decent small diaphragm condenser. The AT PRO 37, Rode M5 or similar would be a good match.

[bradlaird]

My vote is hereby registered for an AKG C1000S. Thank you and good night.

[Pete Martin]

Condensers work well for Mandos but unless you're recording a GOOD fiddler, condensers can be very harsh on them.

[almeriastrings]

Condensers work well for Mandos but unless you're recording a GOOD fiddler, condensers can be very harsh on them.

That's what EQ is for. That is effectively what you are doing anyway if you use a typical ribbon mic vs. an SDC. For example, there is a lot of HF rolloff from 15kHz with the Royer 121, while a KM184, for example, is still pretty flat up to 20kHz. Obviously, there are also other differences, but the HF region is where this really stands out. You can get an extremely 'smooth' sound from a condenser, however, if you EQ on the way in a bit (which is how they used to do it vs. doing everything in post as is common today). Hence, the Neve 1073 with 3-band EQ and the Universal Audio 610 with its own very nice EQ. I like ribbon mics too (I use Beyer M160's a lot, as well as Royers), but I also feel that SDC's can be just as nice, especially if combined with a really nice pre that offers top class EQ, and you make use of this facility rather than bypassing it (as many seem to do these days).

[almeriastrings]

PS: Just read the article Foldedpath posted. I agree with that - the room is critical. Also note quite a few players like a LD mic, especially a good tube LD condenser on fiddle. i can relate to that, as again, it 'smooths out' the high end a bit. I have one mic that I think would work for fiddle very well (though I've not used it in that context yet. Must give it a try) and that's a Beesneez "Sally". (http://www.beesneezmicrophones.com.au/store/sally-tube-condenser-microphone.html) A really fine mic, that seems to produce a lush, smooth sound without actually losing things in the process. The "presence" and immediacy is still all there. Lots of ways to do this...I think you just have to experiment a lot and come up with a combination of mics and placements that suits your room and your desired result.

As noted before on this subject, though, the pursuit of perfection can turn into a money drain every bit as the worst cases of MAS... not for nothing also known as Microphone Acquisition Syndrome in recording circles!

[ald]

Excuse me for butting into this conversation but do you mind if I ask a related question?

I am recording myself using a Focusrite interface system which has two inputs. I record with Audacity. I record myself playing mandolin (plugged in), acoustic guitar and acoustic bass guitar (plugged in), singing and harmonising (sometimes). The mandolin is my main instrument. My question is does anyone have any suggestions about the relative sound levels? How loud a bass should be in relation to the mandolin.... voice to second voice.... etc. very roughly speaking?

[nickster60]

Just my opinion but the bass should be as they say in the pocket. Noticeable but not the first thing you notice, you should have to listen for it.

[Nevin]

You should have the ability to try mixes without making them permanent. Each instrument should be recorded at the optimal level for it (usually just below clipping in the loudest section) and the levels set during the mix.

[Mark Wilson]

I have a Shute sm58 but that doesn't get it done . I think a condenser mic is the way to go but there are some many to choose from.I've heard some solid recordings using a sm58. Have you recorded your mandolin with it yet?

[Mark Wilson]

Each instrument should be recorded at the optimal level for it (usually just below clipping in the loudest section) and the levels set during the mix.Maybe more true back in the days of magnetic tape but imo there's no reason to record like that today. Recording acoustic tracks digitally at 24bit or higher, you will get the optimal results leaving ample headroom in the track. -18 to -12 comes to mind but nowhere near 0bd to be sure.

[nickster60]

You can't get close enough to get a strong signal from the mandolin. It works great with my sax's but that is a flood of sound.

[almeriastrings]

Maybe more true back in the days of magnetic tape but imo there's no reason to record like that today. Recording acoustic tracks digitally at 24bit or higher, you will get the optimal results leaving ample headroom in the track. -18 to -12 comes to mind but nowhere near 0bd to be sure.

+1

You really want to avoid hitting 0dB with any digital system. With 24-bit files, a peak of around -6dB would be about the maximum level you'd want. You can bring it up further in post production very easily with no loss and no noise. Analog tape was a different beast entirely in this regard.

[Toni Schula]

My vote is hereby registered for an AKG C1000S. Thank you and good night.

I like the C1000S very much. But as it has an emphasis in the presence range EQing is very likely needed. Plus I am biased, as the company is in my near neighbourhood.

[Mark Wilson]

You can't get close enough to get a strong signal from the mandolin. It works great with my sax's but that is a flood of sound.Ah. Know it well. I have a mic collection and some mics don't match up well to my preamp and make for a lo signal. Another mic I can't use unless I send everyone out of the house - dogs and all. I can hear the refrigerator running upstairs. The right preamp could make the 58 shine imo but finding a mic that mates better to your interface is probably cheaper.

I like the small condensors for tracking instruments. Seems to require less eq tweaks than large condensors. I favor LC's for vocals tho.

[Mark Marino]

I use Audio Technica Pro37R. A very affordable small condenser. Get lots of compliments on the raw sound out of it

[JohnnyFiddle]

Condensers work well for Mandos but unless you're recording a GOOD fiddler, condensers can be very harsh on them.

Spoken from a man who's heard a lot of "not so good" fiddler's! Lol...

I don't do much recording myself but I heard something about a Art Tube Pre-amp once and an inexpensive microphone being a poor man's Neumann? Does that sound about right... Might be talking to you (Pete) about some more lessons one of these days in Issaquah.

The band has not been playing much but we have a party at Scott's mom's this weekend I just heard. Anyways, keeping a low profile here as I am not a mandolin owner and just play fiddle mostly, I imitate the mandolin with my 100$ Hilo Ukelele. (Don Reno stuff mostly)

Pete has probably figured out who I am by now, but whatever he says I would pay close attention to! My favorite Mandolin player's right now are Red Rector and Ricky Skaggs, in that order...

John M (I used to live in Issaquah WA, and studied fiddle with Pete, and was not a very "Good Fiddler" for a few years or so! ) :mandosmiley: Love this web site!

[nickster60]

That seems to be the favorite choice of the Mandolin Cafe Brain trust. I will be purchasing one and I bet there will be some on sale a round the holidays.

[almeriastrings]

Ah. Know it well. I have a mic collection and some mics don't match up well to my preamp and make for a lo signal. Another mic I can't use unless I send everyone out of the house - dogs and all. I can hear the refrigerator running upstairs. The right preamp could make the 58 shine imo but finding a mic that mates better to your interface is probably cheaper.

Ribbon microphones (and many dynamic mics, too) have a very low output compared to a typical condenser. Hence, you need a preamp that has a lot of clean, very low self-noise, gain available. As a rough guide, expect to need up to around 70-80dB of gain for passive ribbon mics. Some well-respected moving coil dynamic mics are also very low output and can require preamps with very high gain available, for example the SM7b.

Many lower cost interfaces only offer a maximum gain range of 55dB or so..... hence the problem.

A very effective workaround is the Cloudlifter, (http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=222) in essence, a 'pre-preamplifier' run from the +48v phantom power supply of the main interface/mic pre. These really are very good and are well worth trying if you need to match a low output mic to an interface or preamp with insufficient gain on its own.