I'm lost......

[bbaker2050]

Been playing Mando for a couple years. I work a lot and have two young kids. I go to bed when the kids go to bed since I have to get up early. My practice time is limited. I'll start learning a song but never finish it before I go to the next. I know a few scales and a few chords. I'm just feel like I'm lost and not really making any progress. I don't even know a complete song. I never have long periods of time where I can practice. Any suggestions?????

[Ron McMillan]

At the moment your life is seemingly entirely given up to kids and work. To get the most out of both of them you need to make some time for yourself. Even if it's only twenty minutes of mandolin practice time before you go to sleep, it will do you good, and make you more relaxed and an easier Dad for your kids to be around. Other cafe members leave a cheap mandolin at work and get some practice time during meal breaks. But it's up to you to make that time, whenever it can be shoe-horned into your tight schedule.

[Bertram Henze]

I'll start learning a song but never finish it before I go to the next.

Core problem identified here, I think. One complete piece of music is worth a hundred incomplete ones, because it gives you a positive feedback of success. You want to play, not attempt. You want to play music for your kids one day.

Choose one out of your collection of "song projects" and discard the others.

[Billbass1]

First , you have to have the intrest , desire and determination .
As far as completing a single song from start to finish ,
Break the tune up into several sections .
Learn each section , memory researchers call this , " chunking ".
The great thing about music is that many sections of an individual song will repeat and have common threads .
Once you have each chunk worked out , put them together .
Sometimes it helps to visualize the sections .
You can reinforce the visualization by writing the names of the sections and making a diagram on paper .
These tips have and continue to work for me for the past 50 years .

[Rob Beck]

I was in a very similar situation to you. I had three young children and was getting up at 05.00 hrs and facing a 2 hour commute into work. For me, I just had to accept that in order to do the dad stuff, everything else in my life had to go on hold, I was just unable to fit it all in. In fact, I stopped playing completely for about 10 years. Believe it or not, for me that was quite liberating, and made life easier. That said, now the boys are teenagers, things are much easier. However, I had never thought of keeping a mandolin at work, had I done, things would probably have been different. I do keep a mandolin at work now, and lunch breaks are much more enjoyable and productive than they were in those days! I agree with Ron, if you can manage to keep playing, it will benefit your family in lots of ways.

As for as never finishing a song. I found that nothing focuses the mind quite like a looming public performance! Open mic nights are a good way to get out playing without needing a huge repertoire, but I do appreciate that it may be very difficult in your situation. However if you can manage it, I'm sure it will help a lot. Good luck!

[AlanN]

Sing with me:

Tiiiiimme is on my side, yes it is.

[jshane]

I'd suggest:

-Carve out a minimum amount of time that you can spend on the mando exclusively (even 10 mins a day will work)

-Pick ONE song

-Break the song down into small segments (verse, chorus, bridge... eventually individual fills and solos, but these can come later)

-Spend the devoted-minutes each day focused on ONE of the components of ONE song until you can do it (not necessarily "mastered", just "can play it")

-As individual portions are learned, begin to link them together as your devoted-minute sessions

I think you might be surprised at what can be done under these kinds of focused sessions.

And, Bertram Henze is absolutely correct, above. Complete songs are the goal. Partial songs don't really count.

[JeffD]

Are your children old enough to be an audience?

[Astro]

Yeah, that is normal for your stage of life. I went through that as many here did. Just play and practice what you want when you can and realize its normal. I played bits and pieces of the same half dozen songs over and over for 30 years and never got through one correctly.

Later in life when kids become teens and dont want you hanging round all the time you will get more time. Then they fly the coop and you get lots more time. I played guitar off and on (mostly off) from age 15 to 50. Then I found music to fill the vacuum of what happens when kids grow up. Thats when I started music in earnest. So enjoy the kids more now, enjoy the music more later but always keep a hand in both. Like everything , its a balance.

It might be fun to teach your kids to play OR at least go to lessons together (even though its separate lessons). That really jump starts things as kids learn fast. And you learn more teaching to others than you think.

One piece of advice. Try to find others to play with when you can whether its a casual monthly attendance of a weekly jam or just a buddy that strums along occasionally too.

[bart mcneil]

I would recommend sticking with folk songs for a while. They are generally only three chords and a very simple repeated melody. the simpler the better.

As you become comfortable with one or two tunes you can expand on it by substituting slightly more complex picking or chords or decorating the melody a bit. but initially a really basic tune will suffice if memorized and carried to completion. That might give you the confidence to expand on it as you learn other techniques.

[nickster60]

Since I dont have children I cant comment on juggling parental duties and work. I would suggest you pick one song preferably a easy one and just work on that song. When we had a old tom cat he would sit and listen to me playing the violin. As someone else suggested maybe the kids could be your audience. Going to a jam will also help as others have noted, you learn lots of songs just playing along with others.

[LongBlackVeil]

You can practice when your kids are awake. They like to hear you play. Especially if they're 2 or 3. If they're under 1 years old they don't have a choice :)

a single father of twins who practices everyday :)

[Mark Wilson]

When my time is limited and I want to learn a new fiddle tune, I work on just the A part and treat that as a song. I put my attention on that and look forward to taking on the B part another time. As long as I'm making progress I don't give a wit about having to learn a whole song in one chunk.

If you find youself just learning bits of songs no matter, then maybe is not entirely a time issue. For me (and I can slip into that easy)it's an attention, self discipline, or time management issue.


Limited time is not easy to deal with but small planned steps can add up to much ground gained over time. Cause...


Tiiiiimme is on my side, yes it is.

[OldSausage]

The problem with practicing when your kids are awake and in the house is that your whole family can hear the sounds of you doing something that is clearly non-essential, yet offers them neither attention nor reward. This drives them crazy, so they will stop at nothing to prevent you, even if they have to set fire to their own hair.

I haven't reached this stage yet, but I am fervently and incessantly assured by all and sundry that within a few short years kids lose all interest in you, and you will again be free to pursue your interests with vigor.

I know it's too late for you, but this advice may help someone else: take the time to get as good as you possibly can on your instrument before you have kids. I was fortunate to read this advice from Kristin Scott Benson in a Bluegrass magazine once, and it really helped me.

[Bernie Daniel]

Just a thought. I certainly agree with others that knowing complete tunes is the only thing that counts for your "mandolin self esteem".

You say you never finish learning a tune. Well stop that! :)

What tunes are you choosing? If it is a Bach piece well it takes a while for anyone to learn that. But there are in this world some very simple tunes -- Red Wing, Liberty, West Fork Gals and so forth, that you could probably learn it a shorter time - once you get two or three tunes you are off to the races.

Also you say that you know chords. So work up a few very simple songs with two or three chords (e.g. G, C, F) that you can sing along with your own accompaniment. Another little step forward that encourages you to go on.

Good luck!

[Bertram Henze]

There are threads on the Cafe on how to mute your mandolin, if it must be. An electric mando with headphones is another option. If all else fails, there is the passenger seat of your car.

[Kowboy]

Why not bridge the gap and learn some easy songs and play along w/ the kids. There's a clip on here of a father w/ his daughter and he was playing "B I N G O was his name". Very cute clip. He stops patiently for her to say Bingo and then plays on. I'd play along w/ the grandsons and now one is playing bass guitar on his School's Praise Team. Same w/ their father / my son. He now plays guitar and mostly mandolin at his church. You are at a very special time for all of your family and may not know it just yet. Some songs you could play:

Twinkle little star
Goober peas/ my grandsons loved it!
Mary had a little lamb
3 blind mice
London bridge is falling down
Itsy bitsy spider
Old McDonald had a farm

Forgive some of my dated stuff but hopefully others more knowledgeable than I will help add to the list. Don't stop playing though.

[bbaker2050]

Man, you guys are awesome. Yes, Bertram is right..... that's the problem. I've only learned the beginning of songs ( some Thile, songs like Whiskey before Breakfast, Gold Rush, etc.)) and don't feel a sense of completion. I need to focus on one song at a time all the way through. In my experience, Old Sausage is right too. The kids don't like it when I play because it's not giving them attention. And like some of you said, I just need to make more time even if it's 15 or 20 minutes and the kids are trying to distract me.

[John Ritchhart]

As my old high school football coach said, get up and hit em again. Don't quit.

[stevedenver]

all been said above

when I was a young lawyer, with child, law practice and wife that traveled three weeks out of the month
you just have to prioritize

bring home the bacon, make sure the kids are taken care of, exercise, eat well, sleep-maslovs hierarchy
spend time with wife, alone, -

during my young professional life, and marriage, I gave up guitar pretty much, and my passion for dressage and cross country riding-everything is a compromise, and, its a life lesson that one is not the center of the universe, once you have a spouse and especially children, imho.

if anything is left over, fine, if not, fine. don't make yourself crazy.

otoh, if this is really bugging you,

first determine the big stuff, ie your schedule and split with wife of duties, kids, house work and free time, if any. and, talk with kids about needing a little of your own quiet time. if you are consistent and fair, they will get it. just like if they like tv, video etc uninterrupted.

my only priority was a daily run of about 45 minutes, or, on those days I was too mentally blown, take an exercise class and take energy from the group to help you along when youd rather not be there-essential-and the only thing I was fairly rigid about-it kept me strong and sane under a lot of pressure and stress.

you too, I suggest, must decide if you are wasting time or inefficient , and make a decision that works. life is often not within our control, and one has no choice but to bend.

second, with respect to you, it appears you are not as disciplined as you might be, so use help. if you can take lessons and carve out 15 minutes daily, you will improve slowly and steadily, ONLY, if you are disciplined enough to practice at least three or four times outside the lesson. there is nothing like performing, even to your wife or kids or the dog, to make you learn complete songs and memorize lyrics. do not underestimate this.

[Randi Gormley]

My solution when life intervened in my music was to put the mandolin in its case for 20 years. Seriously. I just didn't have time for it, nor for community theater or other stuff that took what I considered too much time out of my day. So if that's the only route you have available, then don't feel guilty. Many of us have been there.

On the other hand, I always had time to read. I could (and still can) snatch random minutes and eventually hours throughout the very busy days (3 kids, 4 years apart, there was always someone in school and all that entails plus a full-time job that included working nights, weekends and holidays on occasion) because I never considered reading an extra. I made time for reading because reading was always a necessity. I found that you can make time for necessities because you don't give yourself the option to ignore them. that's where multitasking comes in. If you want music to be a necessity, don't segregate it from your life. Grab the instrument and play along to tv commercials. Think how much time you spend waiting -- if your kids are at school, waiting at the bus stop or the line to drop them off or at their soccer games. If they're little, waiting for babysitters or for the nap to be over or for them to finish washing their hands or for their program to be over. Keep your instrument around and grab it and play a chord or two, or a phrase. Or a song, especially kid songs. Kids don't mind if you're not playing the full orchestral version of Wagon Wheel. A single line melody is what they're humming to themselves anyway. And there's always "happy birthday" and holiday songs (Yankee Doodle for July 4, Christmas or Hanukkah songs, Over the River and Through the Woods for Thanksgiving ... ). Fill your house with melody, recognizable or not.

And there's always the trade-off time. Cut back on your television viewing or your recreational computer time or your social media time and substitute music. If you let your music time be free-flowing (don't lock yourself into a specific time of day, for instance, because you know it isn't going to be available as long as the kids are small) you can grab it when it surfaces. And if you need to, negotiate music time for yourself with your wife/spouse as a needed sanity break. Everybody needs time off from the family, no matter how much you love them.

[bart mcneil]

About the time I retired I bought a mandolin and some banjos and gave them my all.. and now after ten years I am caring for three young grand kids and am back to square one.. Admitted it is terribly difficult to concentrate on improving your playing with the demands of two first graders and a thirteen year old. It is all I can do to stay even but improving is close to out of the question.

[Caleb]

Being a dad is more important than the mandolin or any other hobby. I have a large family and am the sole provider for it. That doesn't leave me lots of time for music, but I do get some, and that's ok. I don't agree with carving out time for yourself at all costs. Part of being a dad is dying to self, and sometimes that means hobbies take a (sometimes years long) backseat. And that's ok.

It really just depends on what you want to spend your life on. I believe you can have a family and the mandolin, but you're never going to get hours to spare for it. I get to play a little here and there, and when I do I play the stuff that makes me happy. I don't have much musical ambition but I've got lots of dad ambition.

.02

[Astro]

The problem with practicing when your kids are awake and in the house is that your whole family can hear the sounds of you doing something that is clearly non-essential,

Man O.S., that is sooo true. When I am practicing and working hard trying to get a song down and I'm focused in the middle of it ---its viewed by rest of family as me doing nothing. And there is no such thing as interrupting someone doing nothing. I really cant even bother to try to record if anyone is home because as sure as rain when I am in the midst of a perfect run (a rarity) while recording --- someone will burst open the door to ask why I cant get the phone, walk the dog, talk to a neighbor, go for a bike ride...whatever.

My kids are grown and its still hard (they are in local schools and still home a lot).

You know really being a musician is a bit like a writer in that you commit to being a loaner at times. Tough to do with a young family. A fine line balancing the desire for practice and the guilt of being "detached" from family interactions. Most of us are not comfortable on either side. The angst !

[Bertram Henze]

while recording --- someone will burst open the door to ask why I cant get the phone, walk the dog, talk to a neighbor, go for a bike ride...whatever.

Nothing I can relate to...
- we have an answering machine
- we have no dog
- I don't talk to the neighbors, that's my wife's domain
- bikes are a misconstruction lacking at least two wheels - too dangerous for me
The key is to cut down on distractions and establish a culture of respect for your time with the music - it's a necessity, like going to the restroom (and surely nobody is bursting the door of that?)

[Astro]

Nothing I can relate to...
- we have an answering machine
- we have no dog
- I don't talk to the neighbors, that's my wife's domain
- bikes are a misconstruction lacking at least two wheels - too dangerous for me
The key is to cut down on distractions and establish a culture of respect for your time with the music - it's a necessity, like going to the restroom (and surely nobody is bursting the door of that?)

Well to be honest, music is not my livelihood--far from it. Its a passion, but still a hobby. I would feel selfish demanding non interruptions. It would be more like my wife asking not to be interrupted for anything while she is reading or cooking (her hobbies). The assumption(for us both) is that when we are home we are "available". I'd love to find some practice space close by.

[bbaker2050]

Balancing personal (mandolin) time and family time can be tricky. Everybody's circumstances are different. I choose to devote the majority of my time to my family. I just need to be more proactive in finding the 15-20 minutes to practice everyday and stick with one song through completion. Right now I'm just grateful my kids are still wanting my attention. It's nice to see everyone's opinion on this.

[BJ O'Day]

I like the idea of using your kids as an audience. My dad would play the piano for us on Sunday afternoons. He was a kinda plunky player. I was never embarrassed by his playing. They are now cherished memories.

BJ

[truck2242]

In life I have found that people do what they really want to do. I have found for myself and others that ten minutes a day playing is much better than extended time once or twice a week. I keep the instrument handy as possible so that when I have a few minutes to burn waiting for something I can play while I wait. Just ideas that work for me.

[stevedenver]

Man O.S., that is sooo true. When I am practicing and working hard trying to get a song down and I'm focused in the middle of it ---its viewed by rest of family as me doing nothing. And there is no such thing as interrupting someone doing nothing. I really cant even bother to try to record if anyone is home because as sure as rain when I am in the midst of a perfect run (a rarity) while recording --- someone will burst open the door to ask why I cant get the phone, walk the dog, talk to a neighbor, go for a bike ride...whatever.

My kids are grown and its still hard (they are in local schools and still home a lot).

You know really being a musician is a bit like a writer in that you commit to being a loaner at times. Tough to do with a young family. A fine line balancing the desire for practice and the guilt of being "detached" from family interactions. Most of us are not comfortable on either side. The angst !

get em trained!

It's OK to have none essential activities, provided you are attending to essential ones. Then, imho, you've earned it. Of course, no one is a mind reader, but one can help them better understand /evaluate when to leave you alone, what's an emergency in fact, etc.

Their schedule/crisis is not necessarily mine. But most often, I used to lose.....LOL.

[bigskygirl]

Well, life does have a way of happening when you're busy making other plans....I sure wish I had kept up with my guitar during the years between 15-45.

I think the key is to carve out some time for yourself, just 5-10 minutes a day (fiddle tunes only take 30-40 seconds to play-not that I play at that speed....) and pick a song and learn it inside out. I have been working on two songs for awhile now just trying to make them better and come up with different runs and such. Try something like Big Sciota, Big Sandy River, or Whiskey Before Breakfast. All easy tunes and opportunity for lots of variations.

I like the suggestions of keeping a mandolin at work and playing in front of the kiddos, they'll love it and you get in both practice and family time. Don't forget that listening is a huge part of learning, you surely commute so take that time to pop in the song(s) you've chosen and listen until you find yourself humming along and thinking up your own breaks.

Mostly just have fun, recently I had some hand surgery so I spent a month just strumming chords and coming up with strumming and chord variations and efficient chord changes all over the fretboard. There was no pressure I just played and had fun (don't tell the Bluegrass Police tho'....ha).

[barney 59]

There are threads on the Cafe on how to mute your mandolin, if it must be. An electric mando with headphones is another option. If all else fails, there is the passenger seat of your car.

I did this for a while. Kids in bed, wife in bed --I bought a mandocaster(solid bodied electric) and plugged in with head phones I could wail away all night long if I wanted and often did! I seem to sleep less than most people --don't know why but I always have and 5 hours sleep works for me. I would also suggest lessons--nothing like spending a few bucks to motivate you to practice. The car idea isn't bad and a used Cadillac is cheap, especially one with a transmission problem! They same principle that keeps road noise out keeps mandolin noise in! Would make a great practice studio -comfortable seats are likely better than anything you have in the house, great heater and they usually had from the factory a pretty good sound system--you don't need to drive it! You are not gonna get and probably don't want anyway personal time when your kids are awake. They grow and you don't want to miss anymore of that than you already do because of your work schedule --you need to find time when they are asleep and unless you have a large house or an old coal cellar, a detached garage, you won't be able to really play in the house with a straight up acoustic instrument --no matter how quietly I played--while it didn't wake up the kids it still annoyed my wife-- A good idea would to be sure that your kids learn to play an instrument as well. Later,and especially when they are teenagers you insist that they play with you. At some point they'll think it's bunk but then you you insist even more!

[bigskygirl]

One trick we were shown at ROW camp was to take a cloth and fold it then slip it under the strings in front of the bridge. This mutes the strings and you can play without disturbing anyone.

[OldSausage]

I did this for a while. Kids in bed, wife in bed --I bought a mandocaster(solid bodied electric) and plugged in with head phones I could wail away all night long if I wanted and often did! I seem to sleep less than most people --don't know why but I always have and 5 hours sleep works for me. I would also suggest lessons--nothing like spending a few bucks to motivate you to practice. The car idea isn't bad and a used Cadillac is cheap, especially one with a transmission problem! They same principle that keeps road noise out keeps mandolin noise in! Would make a great practice studio -comfortable seats are likely better than anything you have in the house, great heater and they usually had from the factory a pretty good sound system--you don't need to drive it! You are not gonna get and probably don't want anyway personal time when your kids are awake. They grow and you don't want to miss anymore of that than you already do because of your work schedule --you need to find time when they are asleep and unless you have a large house or an old coal cellar, a detached garage, you won't be able to really play in the house with a straight up acoustic instrument --no matter how quietly I played--while it didn't wake up the kids it still annoyed my wife-- A good idea would to be sure that your kids learn to play an instrument as well. Later,and especially when they are teenagers you insist that they play with you. At some point they'll think it's bunk but then you you insist even more!

This is wonderful, I love the idea of buying a Cadillac exclusively to use as a practice room.

[Jim]

Play in front of your awake children and spouse if you have them. It is a good example You don't have to ignore them just explain that you are busy and you will have time for them in 15min or what ever is appropriate. Obviously there are issues that require immediate attention , but not all of them. This teaches the children and spouse there is value in activities like music and art and that they too can amuse themselves for periods of time without demanding someones attention. As you get better they will enjoy your music and may want to do it too, perhaps with you. Two of my three children play music , I don't take credit for their playing but I played in front of them from infancy as well as changing their diapers and cooking their dinner and working a day job with evening "on call" hours. That said it is hard to find/make the time when they're small but It can be done. Good Luck

[catmandu2]

... there is value in activities like music and art

That's excellent Jim, IME. It's been interesting for me to observe my kids' response to music (me playing)--I play a great variety with them in close proximity. They certainly relate and respond to a music in a cultural context--which they observe and experience by virtue of my playing and eliciting music and art in them all the time, etc.. Art, music, etc are effective pedagogic methods for multipurposes both general and specific.

[barney 59]

The thing is practice is just that, practice. I often start a practice session with scales and riffs and then maybe playing something that I have down to get my chops and probably is one of the first things I ever learned. After that I will start on new work --maybe something that I heard somewhere that has been going through my head and that is all I have --no tab,no sheet music, maybe no recording, maybe just lyrics or maybe only part of the lyrics. It isn't a performance and is not supposed to be heard by anyone--it's allowed to sound bad, missed notes and clunkers and the repeated attempts to hunt those missed notes and get them correct. If I practice long enough I may fall "into the groove" where my playing becomes fluid and I instinctively know where the next note is --longer still and maybe the Muses come visit and give me something that I never knew existed before --maybe some new ability,idea or maybe something about music that I didn't know before and it's a rare occurrence but that is what I'm looking for. John Fahey once told me that if you practice for 6 hours straight you will always get a visit from the "Muses" that after that much practice they will break down and hand something over---There was a time that I would regularly have practice sessions that long but that is uncommon these days. I'm not really interested in performance anymore so my necessity to be in tip top shape isn't so important. I do know that I at least needed that practice to keep my head,hands and ear all working together and that when I don't my playing suffers. I know people that that doesn't seem to be the case--they can go long periods without playing and pick it up again and they are "all hands on deck". I've always been a little jealous of those people.

If by some chance I become aware that someone is possibly able to hear what I'm doing-- I like to play on my back deck for example and if I begin to sense that someone is around in their yard maybe my playing will change from a work project to almost a performance in that I really don't want anyone hearing junk or to be annoying and I'll shift, maybe even subconsciously, to things I know and already play well--it kind of destroys a good solid real practice session. Playing to your kids is playing to and not really a practice session to my way of thinking.

I think it's important to be able to have privacy,and time and no distractions when practicing --I find that even having those devises that have become popular are a sort of distraction(slow downers etc.) from pure practice with just you and the instrument.

[JeffD]

Of course it is important to being a Dad number one. But I think that one of the big lessons you can give kids is that its ok to be really really interested in something. One of the best Dads I know is my brother, and his kids have learned to love fly fishing, and guitar, and jazz piano, not by being told to go do these things, but by seeing that Dad loves those things.

So I don't think its an either or. Be the kind of Dad that only you can be, and don't smoke, and the kids will be fine. Er ummm or something.

[Russ Donahue]

I'm with Rob Beck.

I bring a mandolin to work 3 or 4 days of the week and spend my lunch hour practicing or just playing. Sometimes I'm on my own, sometimes the people I work with are hanging out listening. Regardless, I get some relaxing time in the middle of the day to get away from all the other demands and focus on an entirely different pursuit. Then I go back to work with a song in my head and feeling charged to get through the rest of the day. If I don't get playing time at night it doesn't feel as if I lost something.