Seawater soaked tonewood

[PaulD]

I thought some of you might find this interesting.

I've been looking for a reference to an article I read about violin wood. The original article was probably in Discover Magazine in about 1982, but I can't recall exactly. I found what looks like a related story at Guardian Unlimited (http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,381986,00.html)'s Website. The gist of the article is that a biochemist in Texas name Nagyvary concluded that part of the "secret" of the Cremonese violins had to do with the wood soaking in either seawater or preservatives. Here is an excerpt:


He learned that the wood supplies were tightly controlled at the time by the government authorities in Venice: "If you just went out and cut wood from the forests, you could be thrown in jail." Instead, authorised woodcutters felled trees in the highlands and dumped logs into rivers, where they were carried downstream to their destination.

"The Venetian navy got the best wood for building its ships," Nagyvary says. "Only after bureaucrats had taken inventory and assessed taxes could wood merchants buy their supplies, and at this point, the wood had been sitting in water for weeks or even months." Sure enough, Nagyvary says, when he took electron micrographs of a handful of wood shavings from Cremonese instruments, residues of bacteria and fungi showed up, just as you'd expect in wood that's been sitting in water.

The original article talked about his having an instrument or two built by Peter Paul Prier at the Violin Maker's School in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. These instruments were apparently very well received.

This online article is not as in-depth, and it credits the copyright to Discover Magazine so I'm sure it's an abbreviated version of the original. I hadn't seen or heard anything more since that first article, but it's been on my mind all these years.

I'm sure some are already familiar with Nagyvary's theories.

Paul Doubek
Drinking lots of http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif today to keep from http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif . Must be the weather!

[s1m0n]

I think there is no shortage of "discoveries" relating to the unique properties of cremona violins.

Floating timber downstream to the sea is a technique which is hardly unique in the history of logging, either. If that's the "secret" it's hardly a secret. There are sea-going log booms withing a few miles of here (Vancouver) and I'm a long way from Italy.

[Tom C]

I believe the reasoning from what I remember reading was the the lack of oxygen in the depths of the water where the wood was. so it is aged wood that has been preserved?It has been used to build mandos, banjos and bridges for both.

[sunburst]

I first read of Nagyvary and his ideas many years age, when I was still green enough to think maybe he was on to something, and before I read of as many "secrets of Stradivari" as I have now.
From what I've read, he has indeed produced some very well received violins, but he doesn't have a big enough sample size for me to put much stock in his chemical treatment and shrimp-shell varnish as the reason.
What I've read about his methods and claims doesn't sound very scientific, considering he is a biochemist.

[ourgang]

Scientific American ran several articles on Nagyvary and his violins. Nagyvary claimed that the woods that Strad used were actually pickled in I think silicates which actually closed and sealed the cells in the wood. Also, he claimed that Strad used a chitin varnish made from beetle wings and it said that his woods were indeed floated down the river (Po?) from the highlands.

[PaulD]

As I read a little more, there seems to be a lot of skepticism regarding Nagyvary's methods and "discoveries".

S1m0n; I agree that moving lumber by water is not a "secret" in and of itself, but I don't think the material most of us work has been soaked for a significant time in brine. That's not to say whether Nagyvary's hypothesis correct or not, but simply that this could be a significant difference between modern materials and those used by the Cremona masters. And before I p155 off the violin makers; I also realize that there are probably instruments built today that rival those out of Cremona... and there were probably Cremonese instruments that ended up as student instruments due to lower quality (I imagine the ones that survived were mostly the cream of the crop).

Tom; Nagyvary's theories don't relate to sunken/salvaged wood, but rather wood that was floated on the surface for months prior to being milled. As I recall the original article I read stated that he could see under an electron microscope where the ends of the cell walls were opened up by the salts in both modern brine-soaked tonewoods and portions of a Guarneri that was under repair.

As S1m0n said, though, there are many "discoveries" intended to explain the sound of these instruments. I found another site that discussed instruments Mr. Nagyvary is building with a partner (the partner doing the bulk of the luthiery, as I understand). The opinions regarding the quality of his instruments seems to vary from saying they have a big, full sound reminiscent of the Cremonese instruments, to others claiming they are not very good and don't waste your time with them.

pd

[Paul Hostetter]

Nagyvary has an incredible gift for getting free publicity, thanks largely to his position as a physic professor in Texas. His "instruments" are a joke, and his theories change every few years. When I first encountered him, he was propounding a wash coat of chickenshit, ##### and plaster dust as the secret key to the Cremonese sound. When the laughter died down, he came up with other crackpot ideas. He's been at it for decades now.

I'll give him credit for one important thing. His varnish base coat notion was preposterous, and made all the moreso when it was finally established that very, very few of the old Cremonese master instruments still had an original varnish. He went off in search of what was happening in the wood. He invented a lot of fact with regards to even that, most of which has been disproved many times over (but not until it had been published in reputable journals - let this be a lesson!). A bunch of other people, freed from the silliness of the old secret varnish nonsense, also started looking at wood, and it's about time. A few are even venturing beyond that to consider that it's the skill of the maker that is the real secret.

[Gavin Baird]

Paul H,
Quote: " A bunch of other people, freed from the silliness of the old secret varnish nonsense,"...Does this statement put Spirit Varnish into that catagory?....G

[Chris Baird]

Nagyvary has some very good violin builders build the violins. He only puts the finish on them. It is no wonder that some of his violins are well recieved as they are built by modern masters. If anything, Nagyvary probably makes them worse with his quacky finishing techinques.
From what I have read there is no obvious tonal advantage to the old italian violins. Top modern makers today are producing violins that are very comparable; as top soloist have said as much. I believe it is a misnomer that there is even a secret, and if there is, it isn't lost to todays violin masters.

[Links]

A friend of mine's brother-in-law is a fine violin maker from Chicago named Carl Becker. I met Carl a number fo years ago at a Christmas party and quite an interesting conversation with him regarding the old "classic" violins. He had recently restored the "Lady Blount", a Stadivarious violin. It was also duirng the time that the Japanese were buying up many of the fine old "Name" violins. Carl told be that quite frankly, he thought many of the modern makers were making superior instruments, both in tone craftsmanship, etc. etc. He thought the Japanese were quite foolish in their selection of instruments!

I think Chris has it about right!

[Paul Hostetter]

If Nagyvary "has some very good violin builders build the violins," can you name them and explain why they are so good? By what measure, or according to whom, are they "modern masters?" If they're so good, they've certainly won at Cremona or Paris or the VSA. When?

Who is it, in the performing world, that has given them such a good reception? What recordings might I look for?

Do you think what you have read bears more weight than the simple fact that most really eminent pro players (who can afford them) play Cremonese or French master instruments? They don’t play them because they’re fashion victims, or because they’re trying to elicit some prestige from doing so, they play them because they sound better and they’re worth the money!

You have to be careful about what do you read.

I certainly won't denigrate the great modern makers, none of whom, I am certain, would ever deign to let Nagyvary near one of their instruments. We are truly in a golden age of violinmaking, but I don't believe any of them seriously thinks their instruments are yet on a par with a Del Gesù, Gand or Guadagnini.

The Beckers are an unfortunate example. As estimable as they are/were (elder Carl died in ’75, I think), they primarily make and sell instruments. That Japanese rush to buy high-end collectible instruments netted the buyers more than a few overpriced mediocre instruments (of course they’re not all masterpieces, just because they’re old) and made a lot of loot for certain dealers in Chicago, but evidently not the Beckers. (And those dealings by the way were fraught with a lot of criminal activity back in Japan.)

Anyway, you connect the dots. It was a bubble which burst, and not a lesson for the ages about instruments per se.

[Chris Baird]

Prier is one example of a modern master whom was mentioned earlier. Read Issac Sterns' autobiography for some comments on modern violins vs. older models. It is also safe to say that the old world violins are, today, fusions of many various luthiers whom "hot rodded" those instruments into what they are now. Playability is the concern for most modern concert soloist. They can coax their desired tone from a good violin either old or new, the real question is how easily/naturally can they do it. This is where the older violins have the advantage

[Paul Hostetter]

Interesting that you should bring up Peter Prier. I have quite a number of friends who attended the SLC school he runs, and one friend who was the master teacher there for awhile in the "salad days" back in the 70s. Some of the more diligent Prier graduates are getting upwards of $30K for their new violins, many have won all the big competitions and some are judges for those competitions now. Prier's legacy is huge. Although I don't know anyone who has ever played a violin he made personally (he puts his name on student instruments which he then sells, but that labeling is unambiguous and honest), it is safe to say not one person in the SLC pantheon would give Nagyvary the time of day.

[Paul Hostetter]

Stern was a fabulous patron, commissioning or at least buying great copies of dream violins from a number of great contemporary makers. Well, he had copies of his Panette del Gesù by Vuillaume and Sam Zygmuntowicz. He totally got that modern makers were doing great things, but he never stepped onto a stage or in front of a mic in a studio without his "Ysaye" del Gesù.

[Chris Baird]

The old violins certainly have something special about them, but I don't think it is all about thier manufacture. They have been played for over 300 years and have a lot of "mojo". I'd take a good violin with history over a good one without, obviously so would most anyone else.

[Links]

Paul:

I did not imply (nor did you, I assume) that Carl Becker's violins were on par with those of the old masters. I also did not assume, from what Carl told me, that he was comparing his instruments to theirs. It is my understanding that Carl made fine violins, but was building "affordable" pieces and not "masterpieces".

Regarding selling overpriced instruments to the Japanese, it was my understanding that he was just responding to the market and finding what they wanted. He certainly was astonished at what they were willing to pay for what he considered mediocre instruments.

Incidentally, I don't know if you have ever met Carl, but he is a quite humble and unassuming man. I was quite impressed with his demeanor. I got the impression that his main interest was just building violins. That's just my opinion. Someone prtobably knows a lot more about him than me!

[PaulD]

Boy... I apologize for opening this hornet's nest! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Just after posting this, I asked Deb Suran on MIMF.com whether quoting from the article was acceptable. She said it was, but that there had been some serious controversy about Nagyvary on that forum in the past and that I was posting at my own risk. That caused me to do some more reading and found out what I posted above about mixed reviews of his instruments and techniques. If I had read that first, I would not have started this thread... Deb was right! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif


it is safe to say not one person in the SLC pantheon would give Nagyvary the time of day

Paul, I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. The first article I read about Nagyvary in the early '80s did say that Prier built a violin from Nagyvary's brine-soaked wood and that it was very well received by professional players of Cremonese instruments. I can't give you the exact quote... it's been a lot of years, but that struck me because I was familiar with Prier's school (being an SLC local). That's not to say the instrument was good because of the brine... as others have stated; it may have been good merely because of the skills of the maker. I also can't say whether it was Prier that did the building or if he had one of his students build it.

Have fun...

Paul Doubek
Who, on second thought, won't be soaking sitka in the Great Salt Lake... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

Can you imagine what would happen if you threw some wood in there? It would probably rest on the surface, you'd have to weigh it down with something. "Soaking Sitka in the Great Salt Lake" might have potential as a song lyric though.

A couple of friends in the Chicago violin cabale have worked with Carl Becker and can't say enough good things about him. His instruments are gorgeous. Like anyone else who's that good, he knows that not all the old ta-ta violins are really that great, and he said so. Not much to argue with there. I didn't realize he'd benefited from the feeding frenzy back then, but I know of a few others who really raked it in, so when I hear these sidelong comments about people like the Japanese buyers, I instinctively look for the motives and the rest of the story.

[Dave Cohen]

There's little that I can add to this, except re the acoustics community. In the acoustics community, as in the lutherie community, Nagyvary is, well, let's just say, 'not exactly mainstream'. Also, he is NOT a physicist.

[Links]

Paul:

Still a little off the subject, but since I mentioned Carl Becker, I may have to back up a little bit.

I am not sure that Carl provided the Japanese with a lot of the so-so name instruments. It's been a number of years, but I do not think he was saying he was aware of what they were buying, and I think had been asked to find some. How many he "found" or actually bought and sold (if any), I could not be sure of.

Again, it was just my impression that he was interested in making instruments.

Thanks for your comments!

[Spruce]

"You have to be careful about what do you read. "

Especially when you read it ad infinitum in the likes of Christian Science Monitor, ABC News, Discover Magazine, Alaska Airlines Magazine, The Discovery Channel, Scientific American, USA Today, etc. etc. etc. etc....
On a regular basis...

Some folks have a real knack or need for pub, and a lot of times they seem to be the same folks who don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

By the way, I've met Mr. Nagyvary, and he's a very engaging and interesting man who is indeed driven to pursue his interests....
I liked him....

A lot of my beef with this whole issue, however, is the role of the press...

Ever had a story written up in the local rag about yourself, or something that you are very familiar with?

Nine-times-out-of-ten, they'll butcher it...

The "SECRETS OF STRAD!!!" mentaliity on this subject that the press plays up with a drumroll really tends to create a fat and tempting target among those in the violin community, even if the theories were all valid...

One that got really old quite a few years ago...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[danb]

Interesting thread. I know little or nothing about building, but I do like the results.

One thing that ties this back to the mando world- the comment that you can get "your tone" more easily out of a fine instrument is right on the mark. Ease of playing is probably the biggest thing that sets the great ones apart.

I think the worst thing a player can do, is to be armed with a little knowledge, and ask a builder to make something to a spec that is restrictive. I think that if you play something from a luthier that floats your boat, your job as a player is to place an order, send some cash, and encourage them to keep up the good work http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ken Sager]

Things that are soaked for long periods of time in the Great Salt Lake are usually

a) abandoned there or
b) burned

I've done both to shoes and swim trunks worn in the lake while swimming in the wrong season. At times the lake has a stink like no other. I can't imagine what a workshop would smell like while carving up that stinkwood. There's a song title for you - "Stinkwood Fiddle!"

[Dale Ludewig]

Here's my little take on the salt water submersion- and I might not know what I'm talking about, but I think it's a valid question:

If you're floating fresh cut logs down a river and they go into salt water- the logs, if fresh cut, are already full of water. How long would it take for the salinity of the water to have any effect on the inside of the log, and maybe even the outside? Think about it- an 8' log, 30" in diameter, put into salt water. It would have to be under incredible pressure for any salt water to enter at an appreciable rate. I doubt that it might ever reach the core.. Maybe eventually. The results of that saline solution permeating the wood is something I know nothing about.

Spruce, I didn't know you read the Christian Science Monitor........... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Dave Cohen]

Dale, Spruce is fulla surprises.

Re the salt concentration in wet wood; I think that you would be surprised at how fast the salt concentration would increase in the wood. #The mechanism in that case would be diffusion, assisted by a very small amount of convection induced by vibration. #The lowest concentration of anything is at the lowest chemical potential, and the lowest potential energy. #So the ions (Na+ and Cl-) want to go from where there are more of them to where there are less of them, i.e., further into the wood. #That gets them to a condition of lower potential energy. #The diffusion coefficients of small ions like Na+ and Cl- are large relative to those of something like protein molecules, so the diffusion of salt into wet wood is surprisingly fast, with no pressure gradient necessary.

Whether or not the effects of the salt water on the wood are what Nagyvary claimed is another matter. #The most stringent criterion for verification of a hypothesis by a scientist is falsifiability. #That is, a hypothesis has to be capable of falsification by an experimental test. #That turns out to be far more stringent than verification. #The claim can be made that a single anecdote verifies something, but falsification allows the possibility of an independent experiment by an independent reviewer. #Imo, most of Nagyvary's claims can't be either verified or falsified, else there would have been some sort of resolution by now.

[Dale Ludewig]

Dave,

Like I said, I might not know what I'm talking about. And you proved it! I should have known. Kind of like brining chicken?

[Jim Roberts]

Doe anybody here remember the show on PBS radio in the 80's that featured Dr. Science?

[G_Smolt]

I have only a small observation to make...

The diffusion is not really "salt INTO log", it is more along the lines of "Freshwater OUT of log".

Salt enters brined material as a byproduct of the freshwater expulsion process. The gradient that is being exploited is actually the Freshwater content...higher concentrations of freshwater seek equilibrium through almost every porous membrane found in nature. Salt also has a tendency to "sieve" in non-fluid based, multi-membraned systems, i.e. logs, chickens...that sort of thing. In cross-section, the density drops dramatically the further from the exposed surface.

So...I wonder if there is anything to be gained from a "drier" (so to speak) log?

[Dale Ludewig]

You know, as fond as I was of math in high school and college, I never developed an affintiy for chemistry. Now you're making me sorry about my past academic studies. But! I did buy a textbook on chemistry a couple years ago, determined to learn. Now I'm inspired. Should I be, or just listen to the content here?

[Dale Ludewig]

And Jim- forgot to mention this on the last post- I do remember that show on NPR- your PBS radio station. Now we have Ira Phlato (that spelling could be completely wrong) on Fridays- Science Fridays with Ira P................

Just great. So was the older stuff. And for you cooking nuts, I highly recommend (completely off topic) Alton Brown on the Cooking Channel. In fact, I drifted off to sleep last night, not being able to get through the last segment (2nd hour) of him cooking a big trout fillet on a camp stove out of his (supposed) tent at a campsite. It's still excellent.

Sorry. We better start talking about mandolin building again.............

[testore]

While I was at the Violin making school I remember Peter Prier talking about Nagyvary and how he wanted us(the students) to use his wood. The way I remember it is that we never used his wood but Nagyvary kept saying that his wood was used by the school. I could be wrong and things may be different since my graduation almost 20 years ago, but Peter didn't speak of Nagyvary fondly and haven't heard if that has changed. I've read a lot about Nagyvary since learning alot since my student days and the old saying stands so true,"don't believe everything you hear" or in this case "read". A big problem that I've experienced is that whenever a writer thinks they have something they can draw a listener in with they hang on myths rather than facts. I guess it's more important to write a lot of words than to get the facts right. Unfortunately the short truth is that building good instruments isn't that mysterious. It just takes a lifetime of learning and adapting. The real truth doesn't make for a very long article and therefore is never printed. I've studied MANY violins by the greatest makers in the violin family and these guys weren't anything but damn good builders. I've seen 4 million dollar Srads made out of wood that you'd throw away(the Willmotte, 1734) He was just an amazing violin maker,nothing more. That violin was made when he was 90 years old and it is stunning in every respect. He was dead 3 years later still making great stuff. No lights and mirrors going on just great work.

[Paul Hostetter]

Glad to see you and Bruce both tag in here, Gary.

And Dave, you're right Nagyvary is a chemist, not a physicist. A recent paper he coauthored with several colleagues was entitled "Germline transformation and isolation of midgut related genes from the potato tuber moth, Phthoramiaea operculella, (Lepidoptera: Gelechiidae)."

On a mandolin note, the estimable John Monteleone just emailed me some snaphsots of a new mandolin he just built, with a big oval port in the side:

http://www.lutherie.net/monteleone.sidesound5.jpg

[mandoJeremy]

I thought this may be intersting to you wood guys.

Wood (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/03/28/great.bridge.ap/index.html)