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mandocrucian
Mar-22-2005, 11:07am
For sonic versatility, if one were to replace one of the single coil pickups (Duncan vintage strat) on a strat-style instrument with a split coil humbucker (can be toggled either as humbucker or single coil), where would it be positioned? #Neck, middle, or bridge?

On the mini-strat conversion, there's about 4-7/8" distance between the bridge/tailpiece and the end of the neck, as opposed to 5-3/4" on a Strat. #

Or would going with two split-coil humbuckers be better than split/single/single?

Thanks. #Am going to cannibalize my existing electrics for components on an (octave)5/standard 8 doubleneck.

Niles H

Christian McKee
Mar-22-2005, 11:15am
I don't have any experience with a mando that's got three pu's, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of having a split coil at the bridge. As a humbucker it gives tremendous bite and growl, as a single coil there's terriffic twang. Add some slapback for some rockabilly good times...

Christian

thistle3585
Mar-22-2005, 1:50pm
I just read a guitar book that talked about pickup positioning and harmonics and it suggested to locate pickups at the 24th, 31st and 43rd fret locations. The theory was that instruments show stronger harmonics at different places on the fret board and those harmonics should be the same distance from the bridge as they are from the nut. The process in measuring the harmonics was not explained. Only the locations in reference to the frets. I think each fret was measured in some manner then ranked based onm that measurement.

mrmando
Mar-22-2005, 7:51pm
The only harmonic that's the equidistant from nut & bridge is the 12th-fret harmonic...

thistle3585
Mar-22-2005, 9:27pm
From Make your own guitar by Melvyn Hiscock pg. 29, "Many guitar companies place their front pickup at the point that would be one octave above the 12th fret, that is to say the 24th fet position. On a guitar there is a strong harmonic to be found just about a third of the way between the first and second fret on a guitar. On a Telecaster, this is approximately two inches from the nut and is the same distance as the bass side of the Telecaster bridge pick-up from the bridge," or the 43rd fret position.

I can't find the 31st fret reference, and who knows if any of that is true, but its in writing so it must be true.:p

artdeco
Mar-22-2005, 11:01pm
This sounds like a research project. Without reading a whole lot about it - yet - let me venture a theory. Pickups work by sensing the movement of a ferrous mass through a magnetic field. Where is the movement greatest? Not at the nodes (harmonics) but at the max and min points of the wave (simplify to a sine wave for the moment). Where are these max and mins? Depends on where you fret the string. It seems to me this is a statistical problem. If you want the max output (but maybe that's not really the goal?) you should find the most statistically likely point for these extremes to occur on a given string. Anyone found any data along these lines? I think I'll search.

MirekPatek
Mar-23-2005, 4:13pm
Thistle3585, here you have the 31st fret reference:

Harmonic on 31st fret divides the string to 6 pieces and makes the sound two octaves + fifth above the open string. You know that harmonic on 7 fret divides the string into 3 pieces. Then add two octaves (24 frets) and you get 31.

Harmonic on 43rd fret divides the string to 12 pieces (add 12 frets to 31 = 43).

Mirek

hotclub
Mar-24-2005, 12:05am
On an electric mandolin, playing open strings is the last thing you want to do. I'd say put the pickup as far away from the bridge as possible. Get Mellow.

jmkatcher
Mar-24-2005, 12:12am
Why is that the last thing that one would want to do? I find open chords to sound most attractive on my electric. That's not to say I disagree with putting the pickup as far up from the bridge as possible. That's where I mostly play anyway.

RolandTumble
Mar-24-2005, 12:02pm
The only harmonic that's the equidistant from nut & bridge is the 12th-fret harmonic...
No, not really. At the 12th fret it's simultaneously equidistant, but a harmonic that's the same distance from the bridge as, say, the 5th fret is from the nut will be the same harmonic, tonally, as the 5th-fret is, even though it's at a different place on the string.

Asynchronously equidistant, if you will.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

thistle3585
Mar-24-2005, 12:33pm
I saw a mando on Jupiter Creek's site where he routed a pickup slot from the bridge to neck to test pickup placement. Rob, if you're out there, what came of that?

Trip
Mar-24-2005, 9:54pm
On a guitar all this math may make some sense but Im with hotclub on this one..........on a microscopic mando scale get as far away from the bridge to get less of that tinny sound

mandocrucian
Mar-24-2005, 10:17pm
So where would a hot-rodded strat put the split humbucker?

1)
Neck: Split humbucker
Middle: single
Bridge: single

2)
Neck: single
Middle: Split humbucker
Bridge: single

3)
Neck: single
Middle: single
Bridge: Split humbucker

or, would this combination provide more tonal variety?...

4) use two split humbuckers
Neck: Split humbucker
Middle: xxxx
Bridge: Split humbucker

I still want to have the out-of-phase (bridge+middle) Knopfler/Thompson strat sound.

NH

catalog (http://www.btinternet.com/~john.baldry/mando/hokkanen.html)
Yahoo Groups: RockMando (http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/rockmando/)

artdeco
Mar-25-2005, 10:45am
Not much information to be found concerning the statistical relevance of one note over another, but it was an interesting search anyway.

I'm with trip on this one. But you also have to compromise in other ways. I don't like to have the thing right where I want to pick. So that doesn't leave much room on a mandolin to put pickups in. You can sacrifice frets for a pickup or move the thing towards the bridge.

thistle3585
Mar-25-2005, 11:28am
I don't know what a Knopfler/Thompson strat sounds like, so I don't think I could help there. I think the biggest thing is to get them out of my way of picking. A big role in positioning is going to be based on the type of pickup as well as how it is wired. Piezo saddles are at the bridge and seem to work out okay. Niles, let us know what you decide on. Also, if you want more room for more pickups then shorten the fretboard. a 10-14 fret board would open up quite a bit more room for pickups. It would also move the bridge farther back on the instrument and may make it more difficult to play.

mandocrucian
Mar-25-2005, 12:47pm
I don't know what a Knopfler/Thompson strat sounds like, so I don't think I could help there. #I think the biggest thing is to get them out of my way of picking. #A big role in positioning is going to be based on the type of pickup as well as how it is wired. #Piezo saddles are at the bridge and seem to work out okay. #Niles, let us know what you decide on. #Also, if you want more room for more pickups then shorten the fretboard. #a 10-14 fret board would open up quite a bit more room for pickups. #It would also move the bridge farther back on the instrument and may make it more difficult to play.

This is all solidbody electric. Sounding like a mandolin is not a criteria - I consider the instrument to be a (short scale) electric guitar in an alternate tuning.

Classic bridge+middle pickups on at same time = the sound you'll hear on the Dire Straits albums (Mark Knopfler) or the earlier Richard (& Linda) Thompson discs.

I've already got a 5-string electric converted min-guitar, w/3 Seymour Duncan "classic strat" pickups. Tuned G-D-A-E-a, an octave below mandolin. I've also got a new Mandobird-8. #My intentions are to put both necks and some of the hardware onto a new doubleneck body as a protoype. When I get something I'm satisfied with, I'll have (new) replacement necks made for it. #But I've got to think about having the cavities routed for the pickups especially if I'm gone to go with something a bit different than what's on the existing mandos.

On the Mandobird neck, I might add a single coil at the bridge position. (The M-8 only has a single humbucker at the bridge position. Sounds great with an E-bow). I've got a Stew Mac mini-Explorer that came as a kit. I would pull off the single humbucker thats's on it (bridge location) but I'd want the option of using it as either a humbucker or single coil (ie. "split"); it's scale length is only 16-1/2", and it's a little bit too short for tuning an octave-down. #

From my exp, the doubleneck in two registers is necessary to functionally replace the guitar slot without losing much (if anything).

Niles H

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>I'm looking for something else:
Clapton, not Compton
Jimi over Sammy
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Angus!</span>

Mastersound
Mar-28-2005, 1:52am
Hi Andrew

I made that emando for a friend in Queensland to use as a testbed for the pickups he's experimenting with. Last I heard he'd sourced some wire and phenolic board and was working on his winder.

I still have doubts about the relevance of any specific pickup position, especially on an instrument like a mando where most players would be running 4 finger chords all over the neck. I'm making an 8 string left-handed Strat style emando for a local mate who plays mainly celtic music, and he's specifically asked me to keep the pickup away from the bridge because he doesn't want a shrill tone. I've routed for an EMG Select Strat pickup set at about 30 degrees from square and fairly close to the neck to try and bring up the bass strings while taking the emphasis away from the treble strings. This one is again a bit of an experiment, so once it's finished I'm looking forward to getting some feedback from him on just how close I've come to the sound he's looking for.

Joel Glassman
Mar-28-2005, 4:10pm
re: your list I would go with this:
1)
Neck: Split humbucker
Middle: single
Bridge: single

Using compression on a neck position humbucker
will allow for the smoothest sustained sound
of any combination on the instrument. I don't think
putting it in the bridge position would change things much
from a single coil sound. Unless you're looking for the
mbira sound...

I think this is better though:
Neck: Split humbucker
Middle: Split humbucker
There are switches which will give a wide variety
of combinations.

I use a Firebird pickup (which is a minihumbucker) in the middle position. Its a nice
combination of single coil and humbucker sounds, has twin rails which are covered in a silver case:
http://www.stevesmusiccenter.com/DuncanAntiquityFirebird.html
Duncan's are very expensive. I got a used one for cheap
from a repairman.

mandocrucian
Apr-11-2005, 11:49am
On the 18" octave neck, I'll probably go with (neck)humbucker/single coil/single coil. #Get the out-of-phase Strat in toggle switch positions 2 & 4, full humberbucker in position 5(neck).

Given that I've got Duncan Vintage Strat pickups, which of the following would be a better choice for balance with those?

1) Seymour Duncan SHR-1b (bridge) Hot Rails Pickup for Stratocaster (11205-02-B). Duncan's highest output pickup. This specially calibrated pickup is a humbucker that replaces single coil Strat size pickups. Delivers a fat, full sound for harder rock music. Two thin blades with powerful coil windings combine to give a raw, distorted rock and roll sound with incredible sustain. 4-conductor shielded cable allows the coils to be split electrically: in phase or out of phase, series or parallel, with or without humbucking effect. (Black)

2) Seymour Duncan SH-5 (bridge) Duncan Custom Humbucker (11102-17-B). Just the right balance of power, sustain, and distortion for a hard-driving, kicking sound. A favorite with rock players, this pickup cuts through with a distinctive high end and midrange attack. 4-conductor cable allows the coils to be split electrically: in phase or out of phase, series or parallel, with or without humbucking effect. (Black)

On the 8-string neck, (this is for a doubleneck) I'll probably (at first) use the Mandobird pickup in the neck position, and add the third of the vintage strat pickups in the bridge position.

Niles

Joel Glassman
Apr-11-2005, 1:11pm
Duncan has lots of info on his site about choosing
pickups ie. this:
http://seymourduncan.com/website/SDToneWizard/strat.htm
also-Ask the question on the Fender Discussion Page or harmony-central.com

delsbrother
Apr-11-2005, 1:42pm
Has it been determined the stock Mandobird pickup really is a humbucker?