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testore
Aug-21-2014, 11:02pm
Sorry, no mandolin content. But I'm sure there are a few of you who can help with this one. It is very well made. No markings inside. This looks like a Martin to me, but there is nothing inside. Any help would be greatly appreciated by the owner. Thanks

F-2 Dave
Aug-21-2014, 11:12pm
Can't help with the ID. I really like the guitar though. I've been wanting a 12 fret, slot headed parlor guitar for a while. That one looks especially nice.

EdHanrahan
Aug-22-2014, 12:13am
Other hints, like maybe bar frets? And a side view of the tuners might help.

Not exactly, but it's similar to the last guitar that I fell desperately in love with: a 20's "close to" O-28 that Martin made for Wurlitzer. But that had a Martin serial number on the neck block (no model #) and "Wurlitzer" stamped on the back of the headstock, Martin's standard external ID for that time. No other markings. The latest Martin reference notes that some earlier Wurlitzers lacked serial numbers, but makes no comment (IIRC) about names missing altogether.

That was one of 11 "sort of" O-28s that that Martin made for Wurlitzer, but they did make just over 300 Wurlitzers in many styles around that time. Would not be a big stretch for this to be an early one, or for Martin to make similar for other folks.

It did get me to buying lottery tickets with more regularity!

MikeEdgerton
Aug-22-2014, 7:35am
It's not a Martin. It could be one of a dozen or more makers that all made that guitar. The two Wurlitzer labeled Martin guitars I ever saw were both labeled Martin as well. Can you give me a shot of the full fretboard? Harmony, Oscar Schmidt and many many more made very similar instruments. If you can't post the picture tell me what fret the markers on the fretboard are at.

MikeEdgerton
Aug-22-2014, 7:40am
If it was a Martin it would have at least some of these attributes. It has none. Note the square slots and the volute.

MikeEdgerton
Aug-22-2014, 7:44am
Take a look at this (http://solie.org/harmonyhist.htm) article and tell me where that fret marker is that's mentioned early on. That will either suggest or eliminate Harmony and Oscar Schmidt as the builder.

testore
Aug-22-2014, 8:46am
Thanks everyone. The fret markers are on 3,5,7,10,12,and15

MikeEdgerton
Aug-22-2014, 4:35pm
The dot at 10 would aim me towards Harmony or Oscar Schmidt. Harmony used that pyramid bridge for sure, Schmidt might have.

ombudsman
Aug-22-2014, 6:01pm
Pyramid bridges were a popular catalog item, made in Germany. I've seen them on at least a dozen different makes of guitar, and in rosewood as well as ebony. There was an ebay auction a while back of lot of several new old stock examples (stamped Made in Germany on the back).

And yes Schmidt definitely used them, I have a NJ made koa Hawaiian with an OS label with that bridge. They were used on Galianos as well (some of which were built in NJ by OS, but some higher end models being made in NYC). And George Bauer, Victoria, Weymann, Supertone (by Harmony), Bay State, Haynes, Oahu, occasionally Washburn, Leo Master, Bruno... later Kay built Galianos... You will fairly often see unmarked, unidentified guitars like this one with these bridges as well. There was just one on ebay (might still be there) which the seller thinks is a Galiano (that could be true but hard to say). Some of these are brand names built by other companies, sometimes by several other companies at different times. Of course Martin used bridges like that as well (but agreed that this is clearly not a Martin).

Some of these bridges were probably similar to but not exactly the same as the common imported ones, and there may well have been multiple sources of the imports as well as variations of them over time.

MikeEdgerton
Aug-23-2014, 7:54am
Galiano was a Schmidt brand name if I recall. The dots on the fretboard are more telling. If you can get a labeled guitar that has that same neck to headstock profile on the back you should be able to get even closer, other than that I'd have to see it. Jake might be able to ID it. I'm sure the pyramid bridges were sourced locally, wood working of all kinds was a major industry in the US and I'm sure someone in the Chicago area was making them.

testore
Aug-23-2014, 9:30am
Great help Mike, thanks. I figured the bridge was a clue bug also a catalogue item that was available to many. I'm trying to convince the owner that she should do the neck reset(it's already 90% out) but alas, she has no money. I keep telling her that it is valuable enough to fix it. I've been scouring the internet for comp photos but nothing has turned up definitively. I'll keep looking, thanks everyone.
Gary

pfox14
Aug-23-2014, 10:35am
I was thinking Oscar Schmidt also. However, there were so many guitar builders from the pre-1920 era, that it could be something else. I don't think Galiano was a Schmidt brand. The only brands they had were Stella, Sovereign and La Scala.

Graham McDonald
Aug-23-2014, 6:32pm
The Galiano brand is a bit mysterious, but it is likely that they were built by some sort of co-operative of NY builders including Raphael Ciani (John D'angelico's uncle) as well as Antonio Cerrito, Giuseppe (Joseph) Nettuno and Antonio Grauso and distributed by the Oscar Schmidt company. Some Giano labels have Ciani's name on them, others don't. There doesn't seem to be any info on who owned the brand name or if there ever was an A. Galiano

cheers

PeterL
Aug-23-2014, 9:36pm
Just clues, perhaps: Did you notice that the axis of each tuning key is in front of the gear axis so that the strings pull the gear onto the worm. Around the mid 1920 these positions were reversed and have remained that way since then. Another point. Most guitars today have fret markers in the 9th postion rather than the 10th. I've heard 10th position markers are typical of the manodlin business.

Jim Garber
Aug-24-2014, 9:24pm
Definitely not a Martin. I highly doubt that Martin used dyed pearwood on any of their guitar fretboards. That plus what others have noted above. What kind of bracing does it have?

f5loar
Aug-24-2014, 10:13pm
the old 20's/30's Geo. Washburn models like this usually had a label. Looks like a Washburn to me.

MikeEdgerton
Aug-25-2014, 10:45am
Washburn was simply a Lyon & Healy brand. The difference is that L&H didn't place the marker on the 10th fret as far as I have ever seen. Actually Galiano was a Schmidt brand. Here's (http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.com/2014/01/c1930-oscar-schmidt-made-galiano-000.html) one Jake has on his site. It looks similar but that neck back to back of headstock isn't quite the same. Here's (http://www.vintagestellaguitars.com/sale/a107-os-galiano/) another Galiano on the Vintage Stella site.

More (http://www.stellaguitars.com/myths_factoids.htm) on the Galiano brand. Apparently Schmidt made some of them as was stated above. I would guess the models they made would have the marker at 10.

With that said you need to take any clues you can get when dealing with these. They all pretty much look alike until you get down to the smallest details.

barney 59
Aug-25-2014, 2:04pm
A story I heard/or read somewhere in regards to Galiano is that it was more or less a co-operative of independent builders and at least some of whom were Schmidt employees moonlighting. It could be an urban myth but I like the story so I thought I would perpetuate it here. If Schmidt employees were involved then it wouldn't be a far stretch to think that they would be producing something similar to their day job. The guitar in this thread is so similar to thousands of guitars that were produced by what might have been hundreds of manufactures over the period of say 1890 and to 1920 (which would be my guess as to it's age) that it might be impossible to pinpoint who actually built it. This guitar is probably ladder braced,is that true? Some deviation in the bracing or internal construction might narrow it down more than the placement of a fret marker.

MikeEdgerton
Aug-25-2014, 2:30pm
There's also the story that a group of Italians went to work for Schmidt. As Schmidt (like every one of the large builders) obviously built for the trade, that is instruments labeled with other people's brand names or no brand name at all, I'll assume there was somebody that owned that brand and had them built wherever they could.

testore
Aug-25-2014, 3:29pm
Not sure of the bracing.