Compression grained spruce / Alpine Italian Spruce

[sgrexa]

I probably should start two different threads, but I am interested in hearing opinions about compression grained red spruce and "Alpine Italian Spruce". I have heard other builders say that Steve Gilchrist prefers compression grained red spruce, but I was not able to find any quotes directly attributable to him. I don't think this has been discussed here all that much and for those of you who do not know what compression spruce is here is an interesting discussion:

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/99581/Alpine-Spruce?page=2#.U8kgAvldWSo

According to John Arnold "In red spruce, I observe compression wood on the lower side of leaning trunks, and underneath large limbs. In red spruce, it is quite common in the early growth of trees in the deep forest, possibly because those trees were usually tall and slender when young. Normally (at least in the milder cases), it occurs in narrow bands, because the tree 'corrects' itself after a few years and begins normal wood again.....It is usually denser than "normal" wood"

This thread goes onto to talking about Alpine Italian spruce guitars very favorably which kind of mirrors my experience with High Altitude Swiss spruce. I have to believe these are very similar. I liked this wood enough that I ended up having two mandolins built with it, one by Peter Coombe and one by Will Kimble. I believe both Will and Peter sourced these tops from the same source (Mr. Ferrari?) and both seemed fairly certain that the origin was indeed Alpine Swiss. These both had very tight beautiful grained tops and were loud with crystal clear overtones. Hans Brentrup has made a number of mandolins from Italian spruce.

I am not sure what the difference would be from typical European or Carpathian spruce but the guitar guys sure seem to go nuts for Alpine Italian like it is a different wood altogether than German or other Picea Albies varieties. I am surprised that a fairly conservative company like Martin would even offer German and Alpine Italian spruce as options and not just lump them together as Carpathian or European spruce, again assuming these are all Picea Albies?

Anyway, looking for any comments from those with experience with either "compression grained" red spruce or Alpine Italian topped mandolins. Thanks!

Sean

[sgrexa]

John Hamlett was kind enough to cut two pieces of red spruce the same size and weigh them:

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As you can see, the compression grained piece is about 8% heavier (37g vs 34g) than the "normal" piece. I sent Steve Gilchrist a message to see if he has any comments and will post them if he responds.

Sean

[sgrexa]

BTW John, if you read this post, do you know if these two pieces of wood were from the same tree?

Sean

[sgrexa]

Well, at least Steve Gilchrist seems interested in this subject:

"Hello Sean, yes, "hardline" red spruce is my favourite top wood. It has the maximum stiffness for spruces and offers the potential for the greatest clarity and power, particularly in the mid-range, helping to complete a full tonal range."

I also found a really cool thread concerning Alpine spruce harvesting in Swiss / Italian alps with excellent pictures of the beautiful valleys and mountains with commentary by Wilhelm Henkes:

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/2859/Alpine-spruce-tops-from-the-origin-a-review#.U8nK65RdWAi

The harvesting and historical use of the Lunar calender to cut wood for different properties is pretty interesting. Basically, it looks like they try to cut the trees when the moon's gravitational field has an effect on the amount of sap and sugars in the tree. Interesting to me at least. I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but it certainly makes some sense and seems worthwhile to me just to preserve the history and tradition of the practice. Seems that some believe C.F. Martin and other German / Austrian / Italian immigrants would have known about these long standing traditions and maybe carried those practices over to America.

Sean

[Jstring]

The Brentrup that I owned had an Italian spruce top / varnish finish.... I know that lots of people think it's b.s. that you can "hear" a difference between different types of woods.... Too many other factors, etc.

But, compared to the other high-end Adirondack or Englemann mandolins I've owned, I thought the Brentrup sounded noticeably crisp and clear on the A and E strings, and it still had a warm woody pop on the G string. Of course Hans is a premier builder, but I definitely believe that the Italian spruce made a difference....

My redwood-topped Silverangel is currently my favorite mandolin... I've never had so many people tell me how much they liked the sound of my mandolin... Or offer to buy it on the spot! I'm a redwood convert now...

[Jstring]

Well, at least Steve Gilchrist seems interested in this subject

I found it interesting, thanks for posting! It's Friday night, maybe everyone is out at a jam. I'm in the basement playing softly so I don't wake the baby...

[sgrexa]

Thanks Jstring and I agree, that Alpine Italian or Swiss spruce is special (I think we are splitting hairs on any "Alpine" Euro spruce). Hans is one of the few premium builders that will tell you that the wood makes a big difference. Seems that a lot of these Martin "Alpine" spruce guitars are of Swiss origin as a factory employee was caught on video saying so (I don't think he was supposed to let the cat out of the bag). I have always wanted a Martin and I am pretty sure when I do get around to getting one it will be Alpine as they all seem to sound really good. I can't really speak much to redwood because I have only played and own an oval holed version but I like the highs very much and it is a very different tone than spruce which is a nice change.

Sean

[sunburst]

BTW John, if you read this post, do you know if these two pieces of wood were from the same tree?

Those two pieces are from different trees, though I've had billets from trees that displayed some compression grain on one area and not other parts.

[sgrexa]

Upon more reflection based on my personal experience and reading other opinions of both woods, some generally accurate differences can offered. Alpine grown Picea Abies is lighter than red spruce, has much tighter uniform grain, and in guitars and mandolins offers a very clear, high definition sound whereas red spruce is not quite as precise and all revealing. Both are extremely responsive but European spruce seems to reveal more clarity to even the most subtle details, sometimes unwanted like string noise or your arm brushing over the top or hitting other parts of the neck, fretboard or instrument. It will also reveal mistakes more clearly, so it takes a somewhat more precise technique. Red spruce is slightly more forgiving in these respects and offers more of the fundamental "in your face" sound with less chime and overtones. Both have very high headroom, but I personally think that red spruce can be driven harder and louder without breaking up, but that is up to debate and the individual woods. I have to believe that Steve Gilchrist has built more than a few mandolins with Picea Abies. This was likely in the early part of his career up until the early 90s when he seemed to settle on red spruce and Engelmann exclusively. Lynn Dudenbostel took the opposite approach and switched to using Picea Abies almost exclusively relatively early in his career. His preference now is for Picea Abies sourced from the Carpathian mountains feeling it has at least one advantage over red spruce in having less "break in" time. It will be very interesting to see what these mandolins sound like after some aging and playtime over the coming decades.

Sean

[sgrexa]

Another must read thread on this subject coupled with stunning photos (for the wood geeks only):

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/58741/German-Alpine-spruce-from-the-quotAmmergebirgequot#.U8pxBONdWAg

"In 1562 the Fuessener lute maker established the first German guild of lute makers. The guild establishement shows at one side the lively presence of the aspiring craft but as we know many makers were forced also to leave their home places through the strictly regimentation of the guild (note: the quarrel between the violin and cabinet makers guild once was one major reason for CF Martin to leave his home land in 1833). Some of the most gifted Fuessener lute makers went to Italy, France and Bohemia and new musical instrument maker centers raised up. ................As we know that CF Martin chosed his home place at Nazareth also because of the Moravian community in town it seems that the family roots reach back very far. The former home town of CF Martin, Markneukirchen in Saxony, is a frontier town to Bohemia and many musical instrument makers of the town came from the Czech neighboring country. Besides this it is documented that CF Martin's family has Czech roots. Stilly many speak the Czech-German dialect at Markneukirchen and also at other German centers of musical instrument making - this special dialect that was spoken in Nazareth also for a long time. "

Being of Czech origin myself, I did not know this and found this fascinating. A quarrel among the guild of cabinet makers and luthiers? I wonder what that was all about? I must make a trip to visit Martin in Nazareth, only about an hour from here.

Sean

[sgrexa]

Now getting back to the compression grained red spruce, I looked at some recent Gilchrists to see any evidence of this wood. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of recent photos in the archives but F5 #693 built in 2011 was Steve's personal instrument for a while and does appear to have some compression grain in the outer darker stained edges:

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My gut feeling is that this "hardline" red spruce was likely largely neglected and rejected in the past due to cosmetics. I happen to like the "racing stripe" appearance, but I certainly have not seen many examples on either mandolins or guitars. If anyone has better photos showing Gilchrists with this type of grain, please share. I would guess that this type of grain would be rare to be prevalent throughout the whole top based on Mr. Arnold's comments above that the trees often tend to "correct" themselves and compensate over time therefore displaying a more normal grain pattern. Maybe John Hamlett could comment on whether or not the examples he has show this grain throughout the whole top?

Sean

[sgrexa]

Here is Model 5 jr #659 with much better resolution displaying what appears to be "compression" grain:

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The Ajr I used to own from 2009

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Sean

[sunburst]

Maybe John Hamlett could comment on whether or not the examples he has show this grain throughout the whole top?

I have a couple of stacks of top blanks showing compression grain throughout, one stack for carved tops, one for flat guitar tops. I sold a quantity of them to Huss and Dalton several years back for use in their slope-shoulder, J-45 inspired guitars with the dark sunbursts. Apparently, there was no noticeable difference in the sound of those guitars.

I saved the end of this red spruce split billet to illustrate the difference in wood we can encounter in different parts of a tree.
As usual the heart of the tree is off center so the grain is wider (lower grain count per inch) on one side of the wedge, but the wood is transitioning to compression grain also.
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[sunburst]

A picture of the different appearance of compression grain and normal red spruce.
if it is not obvious, that's the compression grain on the left.
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[sgrexa]

John, as always thank you for the great photos. This is a good example of why these might be rejected by many builders on cosmetics alone. Seems Gilchrist does not use extreme examples like these, but I would say #701 from 2013 shows some compression grain:

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I had to include the back too as that is a lovely curiosity in itself (rift sawn?). What a gorgeous instrument!

Sean

[blauserk]

How can one tell "compression grained" spruce? Irregular growth rings? (The top of #701 does indeed have that.) Darker rings?

[sgrexa]

Hi John, yes, the darker fatter lines are the indicator. Any chance you can post some closer pictures of yours? That is the most beautiful Gilchrist I have ever seen. How would you describe the sound?

Sean

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[blauserk]

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Thanks for the compliments. I'm partial to it. I don't think the neck wood is as beautiful as #670, but it is undoubtedly easy on the eyes.

These (above) are supposed to be #701, but I haven't studied them to see if the unfinished wood bears the hallmarks of the finished instrument. The photo of the back isn't nearly so ambiguous!

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As for how it sounds--at the risk of a cliche, it sounds very woody! It's capable of sounding surprisingly sweet for an ff-hole mandolin, but that may be because that's what I'm trying (desperately) to make it sound like. It sounds wonderful, and although it still needs a lot of breaking in compared to a certain carpathan-spruce-topped instrument I'm familiar with (sweet as can be and loud as heck right out of the box), it's a keeper.

[sgrexa]

Well, I don't want to let the cat out of the bag as I think I know of the carpathian topped mando that you speak. If you can post pictures of both mandolins, I am sure everyone would be thankful. I would be curious to see some closeups of both tops, but particularly the Gilchrist. Your impressions of the sound seem to be right in line with what I would expect, but I would certainly drive down to VA in a heartbeat to get a hands on impression, just let me know!

Sean

[Mike Bunting]

I can't really tell by looking. My Stanley appears to be pretty tight grained as does my Duff. I was planning to call Paul Duff this evening on another matter, I'll try to remember to ask his opinions on the.

[sgrexa]

Mike,

I would be interested in Paul Duff's comments, thank you!

Sean

[Mike Bunting]

Mike,

I would be interested in Paul Duff's comments, thank you!

Sean
Paul didn't have a whole lot of specifics about it. Steve Gilchrist just calls it hard spruce and Paul figures some his own tops are hard spruce too. With my A5 in hand and pics that he has of it we have guessed that mine is hard spruce. It has the dark stripes that are indicative of it. He doesn't seem to make a point of actively searching for compressed spruce specifically. He comes to the US and selects wood from a fellow in Missouri (if I remember correctly) and selects individual pieces that have the resonance that he wants.
BTW, Emu should be cooked at a fairly low temperature for a long time, it can be tough.:)
Have you seen this video?
y3JhauyBQ8Y?list=FLzZlqrlI8l_9ODL3qYgV0wQ

[blauserk]

The build photos of Gilchrist batch #48 show what appears to me to be "compression grained" spruce, particularly the one at the bottom, which I believe to be Mike Compton's Model 3 jr. octave mandolin:

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[blauserk]

The build photos of Gilchrist batch #48 show what appears to me to be "compression grained" spruce, particularly the one at the bottom, which I believe to be Mike Compton's Model 3 jr. octave mandolin:

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Given that the ordinarily basic "junior" model got triple binding, I'm willing to believe Mr. Compton's octave mando got an especially promising top. I'd take that as consistent with the idea Gilchrist thinks compression-grained spruce is especially good.

[blauserk]

From Gilchrist batch 49. Striking top.

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[Bob Clark]

I must make a trip to visit Martin in Nazareth, only about an hour from here.


Hi Sean,

By all means, make the trip. Don't just go for the regular tour, though. Make a reservation ahead of time for the 'Behind the Scenes' tour. This gets you a special, guided tour with only about six people in your group. They spend a lot of time in the extensive wood inventory looking at and discussing different samples with the person in charge of maintaining that inventory. At least that was the case during my recent tour. Perhaps tours vary.

My tour guide worked in the factory for forty years. He was very knowledgeable. Everyone we encountered was friendly and willing to answer all questions. It was an amazing experience.

You will also find the museum really interesting. It presents very well the history you express interest in. I recommend planning on spending time in there after the tour.

Also, take a trip over to their store, which is a short drive away. While not impressive like the tour and museum, the people there are also very nice and informative, and they sell building materials there. You might find some wood you like.

Added bonus (spoiler alert), they give you a gift bag at the end of the 'Behind the Scenes' tour containing a really cool hat!

BTW, I am located not far from you. I'm in Salem County, just outside Woodstown. I head up to your area (mostly Haddonfield and Collingswood) for the restaurants. Great area for foodies. Lucky you!

Best wishes,

Bob