PDA

View Full Version : F model scroll function



Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 7:05am
I own 2 conventional F model mando's, a Flatiron that Is my working mando and a Collings that stays outta the sun if you know what I mean. While trolling various boutique luthier sites I came across Everett Guitars. Like many high end luthiers, his work is over the top beautiful and artistic, which is all I can say given that I've never heard either his guitars or his mando's. But I am fascinated by his take on the F model (he calls his an "E" model). He leaves the upper bout scroll out and replaces it with open body space that would presumably increase low end volume/improve low end tone/ ... insert your opinion. The scroll on conventional F models is solid - is there a sonic purpose here that I'm missing. Does the solid scroll have some mass effect that gives F models their reportedly longer sustain and if so would the open lower bout of an Everett mando lose something?

yankees1
Jul-13-2014, 7:08am
Remember those old cars from the 30''s, 40's, 50's and a few sixties ? They had hood ornaments ! Well, that scroll is a F model hood ornament !

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 7:20am
So I've been looking for other luthiers that have done something similar with the upper bout - it would just seem natural since the scroll is apparently functionless ornamentation. Breedlove has their K models which have a similar take. But I've never heard one of them either.

JeffD
Jul-13-2014, 7:23am
The scoll has no measurable effect on tone or volume or sustain. The difference between an F body mandolin and an A can be smaller than the difference between two F s.

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 7:23am
Is anyone else doing this? Carlos Everett says it increases the interior volume of his mandos by and estimated 18 - 20 %. That would seem significant. Is his design take a more modern interpretation - Does he have a better idea than Mr Loar?

Jeff Mando
Jul-13-2014, 7:38am
The "function" of the scroll is style and pizazz!!! Doncha know?!!!

I've never played an Everett, but the theory of open body space seems sound to me. Years ago I worked at a music store that handled Taylor guitars, most models were available standard or CE (cutaway with electronics). You wouldn't think it would make much difference, but the non-cutaway (standard) guitars always sounded better than the cutaways. Of course, most buyers wanted the cutaway and the electronics.

multidon
Jul-13-2014, 7:50am
I am not sure where I read or heard this but I believe the hook scroll on F style Breedloves is hollow.

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 7:52am
Don't get me wrong, style and pizazz are important. But I've always preffered the sound of full body guitars as well. The scroll is a pain to build ... if it sound's better and your construction cost is lower it's a win/win to me.

Gene Summers
Jul-13-2014, 8:14am
jdh, Actually, the scroll looks SEXY to me! Curves man, curves! :grin: BTW, do a google search on F5 mandolin construction, you will find that the scroll is NOT hollow, and many experts say that the Loar A5 Griffith sounds as good as the Loar F5's he also designed. The F5 points on my Eastman help me hold the mandolin on my lap much easier than my Weber A.

Jeff Mando
Jul-13-2014, 8:16am
It seems Chris Knutsen was ahead of his time.....

bart mcneil
Jul-13-2014, 8:37am
If you want to increase interior volume why not simply increase the dimension of A model body by 1/4" all the way around. It would cost just a few cents in wood and give one the increased interior mentioned above. The F style strap hanger may increase interior volume in some models but at the cost of maybe $500+ for maybe a cubic inch or two of additional interior space.

The strap hanger is really the equivalent of the 1960s bizarre tail fins on automobiles. Pretty cool looking but utterly function-less except as a strap hanger.

lenf12
Jul-13-2014, 8:42am
In theory, the solid scroll of a traditional F style provides more mass to the neck block which would produce better sonic coupling of the neck and body. I don't know if this is perceptable or even measurable. I'm sure the sound port on the Everett E-5 factors into what the player is hearing since some of the sound is projected upwards towards the player. Not so with the traditional F style which projects sound mostly forward, away from the player. Very interesting design, that Everett E-5.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

yankees1
Jul-13-2014, 8:55am
Is anyone else doing this? Carlos Everett says it increases the interior volume of his mandos by and estimated 18 - 20 %. That would seem significant. Is his design take a more modern interpretation - Does he have a better idea than Mr Loar? I think that a different pick would contribute more to volume ! A scroll is for beauty , but--------------- beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that !

sgrexa
Jul-13-2014, 9:15am
All I know is that Mr. Everett is not the first to experiment with interior air volumes and likely won't be the last. If anything truly groundbreaking had come as a result of this experimentation I think a lot of builders would be offering a variation on the theme. I am open to advances of any kind but I think the ultimate air volume has already been established at least within a pretty tight range.

Sean

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 12:24pm
Len, I'm fascinated by his simple "slope shouldered" upper bout design as well. I wish I could here one.

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 12:42pm
Optimal air volume would be based on frequency ... I think. The lower the string vibration frequency the bigger the optimum air volume. If that is correct then the optimal air volume would be a range that covers the reasonable range of frequencies the instrument is capable of. Maybe there's room for experimentation, especially given there are different frequencies attributable to the treble and bass sides of the instrument.

Marty Jacobson
Jul-13-2014, 12:47pm
I vary the body depth of my mandolins based on what I think the customer wants it to sound like. I think of it like a tone control on an electric guitar. I don't think there is a single "optimal" air chamber size. There's a range of air chamber sizes that will all work well, and will all sound slightly different. Things start to fall apart if the chamber gets too small or too large relative to the tuning of the instrument and the size of the plates, but to get to that point you have to make pretty dramatic and aesthetically obvious changes.

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 12:57pm
Thanks Marty, that makes some sense. It's good to here from a luthier. I'm trying to justify my fascination with the Everett design I guess. I think Mr Everett is in your neck of the woods, outside of Atlanta I think.

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 1:00pm
Mr Jacobson, Your instruments are absolutely gorgeous, BTW.

Steve Sorensen
Jul-13-2014, 1:01pm
The scroll is NOT solid on most Gibson-patterned F-style mandolins. I'm not sure why folks continue to repeat that tidbit of mis-information.

As you can see from this cool X-Ray of a Dudenbostel, the volume of air-space added by the scroll is substantial compared to an A-style --

121527

Steve

Marty Jacobson
Jul-13-2014, 1:03pm
No reason to justify, it's a lovely concept. I think it'd be even lovelier without the carved cutaway and three-color Strat-burst.
Be aware that body volume is one of many, many factors that together influence a mandolin's final tone.

Jim Hudson
Jul-13-2014, 1:23pm
great pic StevenS. Thanks for clearing that up. I bet the Everett design adds more volume than that though who's to say that improves tone as Marty Jacobson points out.

tkdboyd
Jul-13-2014, 3:06pm
Another interesting take: http://www.labraid.ca/grand-concert
different creatures, but they are all good!

FLATROCK HILL
Jul-13-2014, 5:07pm
The scroll is NOT solid on most Gibson-patterned F-style mandolins. I'm not sure why folks continue to repeat that tidbit of mis-information.

As you can see from this cool X-Ray of a Dudenbostel, the volume of air-space added by the scroll is substantial compared to an A-style --

121527

Steve

Thanks for posting that X-Ray pic. Whenever this subject comes up, I hear over and over that the scrolls are solid and therefore cannot offer any change in tone. I think this misinformation may be the result of confusion between the 'scroll' and the 'points' (which are solid to the best of my knowledge).

allenhopkins
Jul-13-2014, 9:19pm
...While trolling various boutique luthier sites I came across Everett Guitars. Like many high end luthiers, his work is over the top beautiful and artistic...

Link to Everett's "mando" page. (http://www.everettguitars.com/mandos.html)

mandobouy
Jul-13-2014, 10:43pm
a very nice looking and apparently fine sounding piece of art.

relative to the air volume discussion, excepting for the sound port concept, this E-5 design seems to be another take on the guitar bodied mando that some builders have done. for example, my 1996 paul newson, pix attached hopefully, has way more functional air space where a scroll could reside. i'd bet its not just the extra air space effect as i suspect that the longer working bass area of top plate, as well as the longer grain run on the bass side, also adds to its different tone. this is std scale length. 121541 121542

its a great mando, my main giggin' one. it does have a diff voice from the std F model voice, and from my superb newson deluxe F mando. to me, this blonde guitar bodied mando voice doesn't have the same high end "crispness" of an F model but that does not mean its lacking. is overall voice is meatier, the only word i can think of to describe it. the high E has a meaty richness to it and the low end has more beef. hard to describe tonal subtleties, you know you just have to hear it.
cheers to all the fine builders we have!
bruce

JeffD
Jul-13-2014, 11:22pm
That the scroll has little or no impact on tone quality or volume is not derived on the basis of its being solid, (though I have heard this as an attempt at an explanation). Nor refuted based on its being hollow.

Its empirical. The difference between two F's can be larger than the difference between any given F and an A. Its too small and inconsistent a difference to attribute accurately.

Jim
Jul-14-2014, 4:30am
Scrolls make you look like Bill:grin:

Bill Snyder
Jul-14-2014, 8:07am
They look like a modern take on the old Kay mandolin to me.
121549
121550

Mickey King
Jul-14-2014, 8:24am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_aq6OJJO2s

Pete Jenner
Jul-14-2014, 8:27am
I don't think Fs are known for their sustain. I they are known for their 'chop'. Sustain is the enemy of 'chop'. Scrolls add mass and rob the system of energy - good for 'chop'.

JeffD
Jul-14-2014, 10:19am
I don't think Fs are known for their sustain. I they are known for their 'chop'. Sustain is the enemy of 'chop'. Scrolls add mass and rob the system of energy - good for 'chop'.

Its f holes that have great chop, over oval holes. I don't think an f style body has any greater or lesser chop or greater or lesser sustain than an a style.

clobflute
Jul-14-2014, 10:56am
I thought the F scroll was an American cultural contribution to the art of mandolin luthery - very diametrically opposed to the Macdonalds of fast food cuisine - here, the F scroll elevates the art of the American mandolin to its bluegrass zenith.

I don't recall seeing traditional English folk bands using many F's from my childhood, but then again, with Americanisms in our language, with words like to 'de-plane, or de-house and zone out' F scrolls are now very much part and parcel of the contemporary UK mandolin culture no?

The mandolin player of Mumford & Sons parades a F scroll mandolin on his multi-million selling stage. Simon Mayor has a F scroll mandolin too, however I notice when he's photographed with beautiful ladies, he always carries his A shaped mandolin to impress them :)

JeffD
Jul-14-2014, 11:32am
When the scroll was invented it was the style. It was part of the general art nouveau decorative arts - with all its flowing curls and curves and curlie cues.

Willie Poole
Jul-14-2014, 11:46am
I know for sure that it made me give up a good sounding A model and look for an F model... The scroll is "beauty to behold" ...But beauty is in the eyes of the beholder....Not for everyone...

Bruce Cech
Jul-14-2014, 12:13pm
Amen to Willie and all the others. I admit it straight out, I like the looks of the scroll. Bottom line, that's it. I think most of the differences noted here are just a way to justify owning an F style. And I repeat, the only reason I own an F is because I like the design of the scroll.

Pete Jenner
Jul-14-2014, 12:49pm
Its f holes that have great chop, over oval holes. I don't think an f style body has any greater or lesser chop or greater or lesser sustain than an a style.

The shape and position of the holes make no difference whatsoever. Plate modes are global.

Capt. E
Jul-14-2014, 1:49pm
Weber's "Bighorn" is an example of leaving off the scroll to increase body volume. There design makes for a fabulous loud and resonate instrument...Bruce Weber's selection for his personal player. I can testify that mine (the ff hole version), made in 2009, is everything you would want.

Douglas McMullin
Jul-14-2014, 2:01pm
The shape and position of the holes make no difference whatsoever. Plate modes are global.

Please elaborate.

JeffD
Jul-14-2014, 2:02pm
The shape and position of the holes make no difference whatsoever. Plate modes are global.

I don't know about model or global, I just know that a mandolin with f holes projects a more percussive, more focused chop than an oval hole mandolin. Over and over again it just does. Whatever the reason.

FLATROCK HILL
Jul-14-2014, 2:34pm
The shape and position of the holes make no difference whatsoever. Plate modes are global.

You might as well say that the Earth is flat.

Wait...maybe you are. Is that what the referrence to 'plates' and 'globes' is all about?;)

Jim Nollman
Jul-14-2014, 2:40pm
am I the only one who thinks an F scroll adds something special to the sound? Somehow, with so many saying it doesn't, I feel a bit foolish to say it out loud.

Mike Bunting
Jul-14-2014, 4:33pm
am I the only one who thinks an F scroll adds something special to the sound? Somehow, with so many saying it doesn't, I feel a bit foolish to say it out loud.
I have had two very prominent luthiers tell me that they hear a difference between A bodies and F bodies, so don't feel too bad.

Pete Jenner
Jul-15-2014, 12:57am
You might as well say that the Earth is flat.

Wait...maybe you are. Is that what the referrence [sic] to 'plates' and 'globes' is all about?;)

No I'm saying the emperor has no clothes.

Actually what I said is not true re the difference in sound between oval and ff holes. The mode frequencies are different between the two. However my point about sustain and scrolls stands.

Pete Jenner
Jul-15-2014, 1:23am
Please elaborate.

I mean the normal modes of vibration of a mandolin plate occupy the whole plate and not just a specific area of a plate. Dr Dave Cohen and his colleague have done extensive work on this.

I refer you to: 'Normal Modes of Vibration in Two Mandolins' by Dave Cohen and Thomas D. Rossing from Catgut Acoustical Society Journal, Vol. 4, No. 2 (Series II), November 2000, pp 48-54.

The entire journal is available for free download here (http://purl.stanford.edu/vy355rj1179).

I'm sure Dave would be happy to provide other references.

Jim Hudson
Jul-15-2014, 6:40am
Wow, great discussion. Thanks to everyone.

Jim Hudson
Jul-15-2014, 6:47am
Wow, great discussion. Thanks to everyone.

Douglas McMullin
Jul-15-2014, 7:04am
I mean the normal modes of vibration of a mandolin plate occupy the whole plate and not just a specific area of a plate. Dr Dave Cohen and his colleague have done extensive work on this.

Thanks and I think that makes sense. I was really wondering more about the statement on sound from oval holes versus F holes, but I see you corrected that in the post above. I was having a hard time with that one. Obviously many old ovals have a different scale length, bridge placement and construction variations that contribute to sound, but even a pair of modern mandos with similar construction like a Collings MT versus MTO (oval) have quite a difference in sound to my ear. To me it is much more substantial than a comparable A & F.

Pete Jenner
Jul-15-2014, 8:33am
Thanks and I think that makes sense. I was really wondering more about the statement on sound from oval holes versus F holes, but I see you corrected that in the post above. I was having a hard time with that one. Obviously many old ovals have a different scale length, bridge placement and construction variations that contribute to sound, but even a pair of modern mandos with similar construction like a Collings MT versus MTO (oval) have quite a difference in sound to my ear. To me it is much more substantial than a comparable A & F.

As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on which hole pattern produces the better bluegrass sound but I agree they are different. I must stop posting after a few beers.

I only got involved in this thread because someone said the scroll gives the mandolin more sustain which of course is not true.

JeffD
Jul-15-2014, 9:04am
To me it is much more substantial than a comparable A & F.

Yes. You can hear it, you can feel it. Even across manufacturers and brands and makers.

dubblestop
Jul-15-2014, 9:44am
Search for this on the site: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?94387-What-is-the-purpose-of-the-scroll

This got over 7000 hits! My mando (Grady #65 - see my avitatr) has a hollow scroll. My builder (Grady) is a retired mechanical engineer and says it has an acoustical purpose.

FLATROCK HILL
Jul-15-2014, 10:14am
No I'm saying the emperor has no clothes.

Actually what I said is not true re the difference in sound between oval and ff holes. The mode frequencies are different between the two. However my point about sustain and scrolls stands.

Like Douglas McMullin, I took your "shape and position of the holes" statement literally. Thanks for clarifying that point.
I'm not familiar with the shape and position of the emperor's holes.

red7flag
Jul-15-2014, 10:38am
I really appreciated Mickey King posting the video of the two Webers, an A and an F. To me there was a distinct difference in tone. While I used to be an F guy, I actually preferred the A's sound. Sounded a bit more bassy and full. Again, that is more the tone I am looking for now as I have gravitated more to more eclectic music and away from traditional bluegrass. I have heard the tone difference between the A and the F for some time, but I would be hard pressed to describe it.

Pete Jenner
Jul-15-2014, 12:23pm
I'm not familiar with the shape and position of the emperor's holes.

I'd be more concerned about the emperors scroll.

Douglas McMullin
Jul-15-2014, 6:11pm
I really appreciated Mickey King posting the video of the two Webers, an A and an F. To me there was a distinct difference in tone. While I used to be an F guy, I actually preferred the A's sound. Sounded a bit more bassy and full. Again, that is more the tone I am looking for now as I have gravitated more to more eclectic music and away from traditional bluegrass. I have heard the tone difference between the A and the F for some time, but I would be hard pressed to describe it.

I hear a difference between the two, but I think it is more likely because the two are simply different. Meaning different wood and subtle differences in how the top and back are carved. Two of the same model F's played side by side would usually have a similar difference.

Timbofood
Jul-15-2014, 6:35pm
The emperor has one of the "lumpy" "A" styles (using the "other names" for it)

JeffD
Jul-15-2014, 6:38pm
I hear a difference between the two, but I think it is more likely because the two are simply different. Meaning different wood and subtle differences in how the top and back are carved. Two of the same model F's played side by side would usually have a similar difference.

Zakly. No two mandolins sound the same. But can any difference be consistently attributed to the F body shape over the A?

clobflute
Jul-15-2014, 6:57pm
Hmm...from the Weber Gallatin A vs F, I'm not hearing a 20% improvement of the F over the A, for a cost of around 80% F > A.

More like + 2-5% F bark over the A, an then - 2-5% A sustain > F sustain.

Otherwise they sound both really nice. The distinction of a F scroll over an A is starting to get a bit too academic and pernickety for me. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll hear the difference.

But actually, I think a mandocello vs a mandolin is the order of difference I'm looking for, not an anatomical bump here or there.

Jeff Mando
Jul-15-2014, 7:11pm
Hmm.....But actually, I think a mandocello vs a mandolin is the order of difference I'm looking for, not an anatomical bump here or there.

Adam and Eve did a lot with those bumps!!!!

LongBlackVeil
Jul-16-2014, 8:12am
I really appreciated Mickey King posting the video of the two Webers, an A and an F. To me there was a distinct difference in tone. While I used to be an F guy, I actually preferred the A's sound. Sounded a bit more bassy and full. Again, that is more the tone I am looking for now as I have gravitated more to more eclectic music and away from traditional bluegrass. I have heard the tone difference between the A and the F for some time, but I would be hard pressed to describe it.

you cant describe it because its not tangible and always changing.

Any two mandolins are going to sound different. even built exactly the same way. Its impossible to say what the difference is between an A and an F because its impossible to test.

Iron
Jul-16-2014, 8:22am
Just buy an A style and a scroll style and have the best of both worlds, my webers Bighorn and a Fern pretty much take care of the sounds I'm looking for.

Steve Sorensen
Jul-16-2014, 11:19am
. . . or split the difference and get a two-point! :cow:

121607

Steve

JeffD
Jul-16-2014, 11:54am
. . . or split the difference and get a two-point!

Yes! Two pointers are among the prettiest mandolins.

Jim Nollman
Jul-16-2014, 12:20pm
I can clearly hear the difference between the A and the F in the Mickey King video. It's what i always hear with As and Fs that are similar.

And...I strongly believe there's also a difference in every mandolin, F to F, A to A. Sometimes the difference is huge, sometimes very subtle.

And.. .that defining difference between any A. But as the Weber test also verifies, the tones of both the A and the F can be equally gorgeous.

And...if you are performing onstage, there is so much acoustic coloring added both by every room and all sound reinforcement, that it seems rather doubtful that any audience will ever be able to hear the very subtle difference between either of those Webers. And even if they do hear something, it is so incredibly subtle that no one besides another mandolin player is ever going to care. Everyone else is focused on the music.

bratsche
Jul-17-2014, 12:10pm
The scroll only seems to be an artistically-motivated addition to an instrument body. It actually conceals a secret mechanical device, a type of lever, designed with the express purpose of being a price jack.

bratsche

Jeff Mando
Jul-17-2014, 12:15pm
The scroll only seems to be an artistically-motivated addition to an instrument body. It actually conceals a secret mechanical device, a type of lever, designed with the express purpose of being a price jack.

bratsche

Good one! Reminds me of John Edward's $900 haircut......

LongBlackVeil
Jul-17-2014, 1:50pm
I can clearly hear the difference between the A and the F in the Mickey King video. It's what i always hear with As and Fs that are similar.

And...I strongly believe there's also a difference in every mandolin, F to F, A to A. Sometimes the difference is huge, sometimes very subtle.

And.. .that defining difference between any A. But as the Weber test also verifies, the tones of both the A and the F can be equally gorgeous.

And...if you are performing onstage, there is so much acoustic coloring added both by every room and all sound reinforcement, that it seems rather doubtful that any audience will ever be able to hear the very subtle difference between either of those Webers. And even if they do hear something, it is so incredibly subtle that no one besides another mandolin player is ever going to care. Everyone else is focused on the music.

What is it that you always hear? I'm sorry not trying to starter a fight but I just don't believe you. (Especially since were talking about a YouTube video, which NEVER accurately represents the sound of an instrument) If you were doing a blind test of an a vs an f model, you'd have a 50/50 chance of getting it right of course, but I don't think you would truly know which is which

clobflute
Jul-17-2014, 5:21pm
. . . or split the difference and get a two-point! :cow:

121607

Steve

Beautiful and elegant solution to the A vs F campz!

mandroid
Jul-19-2014, 11:02am
But, really, it all depends on how small a % you consider 'substantial'.

eastman_315
Jul-19-2014, 11:40am
Beautiful and elegant solution to the A vs F campz!IMHO, so is my Breedlove KO:

121699

I was surprised when I noticed TMS listed the K-style Breedloves as 2-pointers. (Wouldn't 3-point be more specific?)

Also, the "stump" is hollow. Don't know if that contributes to the Breedlove "sound" or not.

Frank

mandocaster
Jul-20-2014, 1:53am
The secret to good tone is exposing your mandolin to X-rays. It will be the next big thing.




As you can see from this cool X-Ray of a Dudenbostel, the volume of air-space added by the scroll is substantial compared to an A-style --

121527

Steve

Bernie Daniel
Jul-21-2014, 1:23am
The secret to good tone is exposing your mandolin to X-rays. It will be the next big thing.

I was thinking the next big thing would be a mandolin with one f-hole, one oval hole, and half a scroll...that should cover all the bases....

Astro
Jul-21-2014, 7:21am
I was thinking the next big thing would be a mandolin with one f-hole, one oval hole, and half a scroll...that should cover all the bases....

I wouldnt want to have anything to do with something done half axe.

Astro
Jul-21-2014, 7:27am
But seriously though,

I think the F model scroll function has the same exact function as a push up bra.

You can say it doesnt change anything underneath, but somehow they accentuate whats already there.

And they sure are fun to look at.

Willie Poole
Jul-21-2014, 12:18pm
Bernie, I can just picture a mandolin like now, what a beauty it would be...Much like Johnny Cash`s song about a car that he built by stealing parts from a factory over a period of about 10 years..."It`s an F-A-oval holed F-hole model...."Can you draw and post a pic of what it would look like?

Willie

DataNick
Jul-21-2014, 3:12pm
As an enlightened person I know once observed: "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll!"

clobflute
Jul-21-2014, 3:33pm
Oops..double post....

clobflute
Jul-21-2014, 3:34pm
As an enlightened person I know once observed: "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll!"


This thread is still going?!

F scrolls are sounding as important to its proponents as G strings or Y fronts :D

Interested in where F scrolls originated from (the other two enquiries above seem to initiate my parental control filters lol), I found

www.mandolincafe.com/archives/briefhistory.html

But that's about it. I guess it is a distinctly north American contribution to the evolution of the mandolin.

Nonetheless, its the Sorensen Sprite two point mandolin which wins this A vs F fun thread for me.

www.themandolinstore.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=9566

The A and the F scrolls make no points: the Sorensen makes two very good ones :D

DataNick
Jul-21-2014, 4:47pm
...The A and the F scrolls make no points: the Sorensen makes two very good ones :D

Obviously what we have here is some serious need of a soul(scroll) vaccination...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY7CKdW6ioU

clobflute
Jul-21-2014, 4:56pm
Obviously what we have here is some serious need of a soul(scroll) vaccination...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY7CKdW6ioU


Doggone it!

Why is he singing sheepishly about animal welfare in the afterlife?!