5 string "Tenors", useful tunings?

[bea]

This thread is my main reason for entering this forum.

FIrst of all - after building the Tenor SG i noticed that playing guitars with fewer strings and in quintic tuning is fun.

Secondly i have a candidate for another conversion: an old German thinline archtop, originally a real beauty, with some severe problems:
Long ago, the previous owner cut the bass bars in order to install standard humbuckers among some other strange modifications.
The neck is very narrow, 38 mm at the nut and 50 mm at fret 20. A trussrod is missing.
Although i spent some effort to restabilize the guitar, it is structurally too week for .010 flatwounds, even halfrounds.

So my idea is to use fewer strings. It should be stable if i reduce the string tension by about 12 % compared to my current setup, a set of flatwounds with .010 in the treble and a bottom typical for a .009 set. The following possibilities come to mind:

a) 4 strings quintic, GDAE .
b) 5 strings quintic, CGDAE.
c) 5 strings quintic, CGDAE with C an octave higher
c) 4 strings quintic, GDAE plus some "bordun" string in the 5th position, e.g. an octave G or a repetition of the E.

The main reason why i consider a 5 string is simple: the fingerboard is still a bit wide for just 4 strings, even if i use a string spacing typical of classical guitars. The soundbox itself should to be capable of a nicely balanced acoustic sound even of a low C.


I am, however, totally unsure about the usefulness of 5 string tunings like these and would like to learn about possibilities / experiences with such exotic setups. Hints or even a discussion of such possibilities would be appreciated.

[djweiss]

I prefer 5 string tenor...Mine has a 22.75" scale length and is tuned FCGDA (Low to high). On my 4 string tenors, I use the low courses, FCGD.

For me, it's much easier to switch between mandolin and tenor, as it's only a 2 fret shift.

[mrmando]

Yep, the FCGDA tuning is what you want for a 5-string tenor. CGDAE is next to impossible -- there ain't a string made that will tune up to E at a tenor scale length, unless somebody's making strings out of unicorn guts and fairy dust.

[bea]

May i add that i actually have a full 24.75" scale where the E4 (one octave below the mandolin) is standard. I would not go higher than this because of the structural weakness of the instrument; it might break even faster than the string...
So actually i am rather asking for useful tunings in the range of mandocello and irish bouzouki and possibilities / limitations.

[bruce.b]

>>Yep, the FCGDA tuning is what you want for a 5-string tenor. CGDAE is next to impossible -- there ain't a string made that will tune up to E at a tenor scale length<<

I'm sure Beate means to take tenor GDAE tuning and add a low C. The E string is the same as on a 6 string guitar. This should work well and in fact is often done. Gives you a mandocello-octave mandolin hybrid tuning.

This is what I'd do if I was converting a 6 string guitar to a 5ths 5 string. If it's a normal 6 string scale length it's actually the FCDGA tuning that is going to be difficult to impossible.

[bruce.b]

Ha, posted at the same time you did Beate. Yes, go CGDAE. It should work great.

[bea]

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

I just ordered a vintage saddle and will start designing the bridge and the stringholder.

Progress will be slow because this one is in parallel to a bass building project.

Maybe i should simply try with just 5 strings and not actual modification to make it usable. BTW, here the guitar:

http://www.gitarrebassbau.de/download/file.php?id=11793&mode=view/Front.jpg

It will be a long way...

[mrmando]

Well, then, that is a single-course liuto cantabile, not a tenor guitar.

[bea]

Well, then, that is a single-course liuto cantabile, not a tenor guitar.

*smile* well, Your'e right.

But if we're classifying: what about calling it simply a quintic 5 string baritone guitar ;-)?

Anyway: after checking some sound clips this conversion will probably the best thing which could happen to the instrument. Meanwhile i checked the neck in detail. The dimensions should be ideal for that job.

[mrmando]

Because nomenclature is already confusing enough without introducing new names for existing things, or new things for existing names.

[bruce.b]

>>well, if we're classifying: what about calling it simply a quintic 5 string baritone guitar ;-)?<<

Nah, common usage. Call it a 5 string tenor guitar. That's what it is most like and is what something like this is almost always called.

[mrmando]

Not if it's tuned the way she's proposing to tune it. How about "5-string cello guitar"? That's less cumbersome than single-course liuto cantabile, and gives an accurate idea of the tuning. Cello guitars, while rare, do exist as a distinct category from tenor guitars.

[GKWilson]

Hi Bea,
Looks like your having fun.
I play a Tenor tuned GDAE. If I were to go to a 5 string I would do so by
adding the lower C. I would still call it a Tenor.
But if they need to be renamed maybe 'Octave Tenor'.:grin:
I have talked to Lowell Levinger. Probably the highest authority on 5 string Tenors.
He plays and has made several. He thinks we should all play 5 strings because
they are more versatile. Of course, he may be bias.
I never asked him if he ever built one in the lower range.
Next time I see him I'll find out.
Gary

[mrmando]

Lowell prefers the FCGDA tuning. He certainly gets around on his!

[Jayyj]

I've started using Fender Duo Sonics for my electric tenor duties - 22.5" scale, six strings tuned FCGDGA, which gives five string tenor plus a variant on the dropped high string tuning popular with bouzouki players. Of course, it's now basically just a guitar, but#it's still mainly in 5ths and much more versatile than standard tenor.

[bea]

Hi Bea,
Looks like your having fun.
I play a Tenor tuned GDAE. If I were to go to a 5 string I would do so by
adding the lower C. I would still call it a Tenor.

Well, here it is: it was actually a restauration of an old german archtop guitar by Josef sandner ("Isana"). I own it for several decades and struggled a lot with its problems - bass bars cut by the previous owner, headstock converted to "Gibson". Stucturally too weak for 6 strings, and the fingerboard too narrow as well. But strong enough for 5 strings and the fingerboard provides ideal spacing in that setup. Tuning is CGDAE, and it works surprisingly well. Even the C on the thinline body. The bridge is a bit preliminary; like many mandolins the guitar will probably profit from a more "mobile" one.

I managed to recover most of its old style:

http://www.gitarrebassbau.de/download/file.php?id=32985&mode=view/As_5_String.jpg

Now i need to learn to play it.

[DavidKOS]

Lowell prefers the FCGDA tuning. He certainly gets around on his!

I'd second the all fifths tuning - the Crafty Guitar school (Robert Fripp) uses CGDAE and a high G, and that odd interval of a minor 3rd always threw me. Stick with FCGDAE.

Is that Bea the guitar and bass builder? Hi from dbb.

[bea]

Hi David,



Is that Bea the guitar and bass builder? Hi from dbb.

If that's already my nick name...

FCGDAE might be an option on my other guitars as soon as i can play in the 5ths tuning. But in a band context the F string might probably as much decoration as the B string of 5-string basses often is....

Now i need to search for some resources, ideally toward Jazz (playing rock on the guitar is not my thing, for whatever reason... but it is real fun on the bass...)

[MdJ]

Hi Bea,
Looks like your having fun.
I play a Tenor tuned GDAE. If I were to go to a 5 string I would do so by
adding the lower C. I would still call it a Tenor.
But if they need to be renamed maybe 'Octave Tenor'.:grin:
I have talked to Lowell Levinger. Probably the highest authority on 5 string Tenors.
He plays and has made several. He thinks we should all play 5 strings because
they are more versatile. Of course, he may be bias.
I never asked him if he ever built one in the lower range.
Next time I see him I'll find out.
Gary

Here is a bit of correspondence i was privileged to recieve from Banana (dont call him mr. Levinger, only his dentist does that) on the subject of FCGDA tuning and 5 strings in particular.

Hi,
To accompany yourself singing songs on the tenor guitar you get nice voicings that one does not get on an instrument tunes in 4ths like the guitar.
But many songs it seems are sung and played in the keys of G, A, Bb and B
With the tenor guitar in the key of G the lowest note possible is the 5th or D.
In the key of A the lowest note possible is the 3rd or C#.
etc. etc.
By adding the lower F string you gain access to all the root tonic notes in the popular keys thus making accompaniment more effective.
I use a 21" scale length to make the fingering easier for my small hands.
Joel has built two necks for me and he is the greatest.
Hope this helps.
LL


His reference to 'joel' is regarding the luthier who did my first conversion, joel eckhaus of earnest instruments. I have two five string tenors - both carved- down conversions from 3/4 scale 6 strings. it was more work than i expected to transition from playing my 4 string tenors, but the pay off has been greater than expected too-the lower tonal range of that F string makes quite a big difference -

btw Due to the stunted limitations of my singing voice, i have strarted dropping them down 2 half steps to Eb,Bb,F,C,G and both instruments perform quite well there with heavier strings.

Beautiful project you have going here, bea. I'd love to hear a clip someday.

All the best,
MdJ

[bea]

Hi, thanks for the info


Here is a bit of correspondence i was privileged to recieve from Banana (dont call him mr. Levinger, only his dentist does that) on the subject of FCGDA tuning and 5 strings in particular.


Banana is talking about "real" Tenor guitars, and the A string actually corresponds to the 5th fret of the E string of my two conversions, doesn't it? So the low G of my SG conversion is well in the desired range (that 4 string SG is a great rock axe, btw...), and the low C of my archtop is actually in the range of Bariton Guitars.

Now, at day 2 i begin to learn about the strings the guitar needs - ideally thicker in the top, especially the A, and a bit lighter in the bottom to stay within the limits the weak construction imposes (but the sound easily permits a lighter bottom).