Convention for nuts

[clobflute]

:))


Seriously though, how come mandolin nut widths are set at 1 2/16th for the majority?
Did Italian makers have smaller hands in the 19th century?

Is there some advantage to them?

I have a few (cheap) mandolins, all around 1 2/16th" nut width. When I bought my first proper mandolin - a Weber Gallatin A wide nut at 1 3/16th", I really fell in love with it and I'm still falling....

I passed by a few mandolin stores in France (selling mostly Czech Republic mandolins) all of which were standard nut sizes. Now I know, what a 1 3/16th" mandolin nut width feels like, I just cannot go back to a smaller nut width.

Is it related to hand span size or something? How come wider nut widths aren't standard? I find I have less hand cramp with the wider one...the mandolin feels more fluid and ergonomic to hold, and my thumb doesn't jut out wondering what to do.

Anyone else had the opposite experience, and found a wider nut width to be a disadvantage?

[Rodney Riley]

I have trouble with my Weber Gallatin F being smaller than my Godin. Love the Godin :) My Boat Paddle nylon string is a little wider yet... Yes I love the wider nut.
So to answer your question... No, I don't see an advantage.

[SincereCorgi]

It probably derives a little from violin nut/neck dimensions. From that perspective, the mandolin feels comfortably wide.

[Jim Garber]

My 23 snakehead A2 has a 1-1/8" nut width as does most of my other mandolins, bowlback or otherwise. The Embergher bowlbacks have even narrower nut widths tho the compensate for that with radiused fretboard, even back the early 20th century.

I actually prefer a 1-1/8" nut width. I am used to it. However I have been playing my National RM-1 and that actually has a 1-1/4" width. I am getting used to it. One thing that is much harder it fretting two courses with one finger -- something you usually can do easily on narrower fretboards and on violin.

I think there are quite a few makers now who make wider nut widths as normal or can certainly make them wider if requested.

[foldedpath]

Is it related to hand span size or something? How come wider nut widths aren't standard? I find I have less hand cramp with the wider one...the mandolin feels more fluid and ergonomic to hold, and my thumb doesn't jut out wondering what to do.

Anyone else had the opposite experience, and found a wider nut width to be a disadvantage?

Well, one thing that's easier on a standard-size nut is holding double stops (2 notes, 4 strings total) with just a single fingertip, which leaves the other fingers free for hitting other notes across the fretboard.

For example, XXOO "modal A" chord (or technically a dyad?) with the tip of my index finger holding those two X's at the second fret on the bottom two strings, the upper two open. Very useful in Irish trad, OldTime, or any tune in A or A minor where you want to throw in some licks with the other fingers. It's much harder to hit that on my octave mandolin with a wider nut and string spacing. I can do it, but just barely. I have a 4-string mandola where it's also a bit tricky due to wider string spacing. On my standard-nut mandolin it's dead easy.

Hand and finger size is also a factor. I have more or less normal sized guy hands for my 6'2" height, and the standard string spacing feels just right. If I had big stubby fingers, I might prefer a wider nut for that same technique.

It's just one of those things that didn't click with me right away on mandolin, since I came to mandolin from guitar, and the equivalent technique is more of a bent-finger, partial barre instead of coming down directly with a fingertip to hold two notes.

Edit to add: Hah! I see Jim got there first with the one-finger thing. :)

[sgrexa]

What is "standard" nut width on a mandola?

Sean

[Steve Zawacki]

When all else fails, think in terms of cost control. For every 18 1&3/16 nuts, you can make 19 1&2/16 nuts. That's a 5.6% savings in nut material alone. When some manufacturers produce mandolins in the thousands, 5% here and 5% there add up.

[Jim Garber]

Edit to add: Hah! I see Jim got there first with the one-finger thing. :)

That is because it is very fresh in my mind. I have been woodshedding on a bunch of Irish tunes on both fiddle and mandolin and switching off. I got into playing them on my RM-1 and noticed that it was pretty hard to play two courses with one finger.


What is "standard" nut width on a mandola?

I don't think there is too much standard on mandola. I guess it is similar to viola -- different body sizes and scales and (I am sure) nut widths as well. I can check mine tomorrow.

[robert.najlis]

1 3/16" is generally considered a wide nut. 1 1/8 has become pretty standard nowadays, but that is newer idea, and 1 1/16" used to be quite standard as well, and I believe that Gibson still uses that. I custom ordered my mandolin with a 1" nut width.

[Ed Goist]

Keep in mind that when it comes to affect on playability, it's the string spacing that really matters (measured from the edge of the outside G-string to the edge of the outside E-string). I have found that for the vast majority of mandolins with a nut width of 1 1/8", this string spacing is 1". Interestingly, I have found that for the majority of mandolins with a nut width of 1 3/16", the string spacing is ALSO 1"!

[Astro]

Either of the political party primary caucuses could qualify.

(its just a joke mods)

[Michael Bridges]

Actually I always thought of the Cafe as a Convention for Nuts.

[clobflute]

Interesting reading all the responses - yes it makes sense about hand size and wider nuts. I notice though, that I cannot for the life of me, play classical guitar properly, because the ergonomics of the long neck means contorting my hand to reach the bass E string frets.

In playing dyads, I find it no more of a problem on a wide nut than a 1 inch bowlback mandolin - the biggest limitation is me! The fret pressures across the finger is rather painful - except for the low action of the Weber Gallatin pro set up I had. It's like putting my fingers against the cheese wire..

The cost difference for narrower mandolins make sense too.

Do finger picking non-plectrum players prefer wider nuts per chance? I started off playing this way, but after a year, I've moved on to playing with a plectrum only.

[FatBear]

So the narrower nut/string spacing makes fretting two courses easier. How does string spacing affect picking the melody? Is it easier to get from string to string when playing fast, or are you more likely to hit the wrong string by mistake?

[robert.najlis]

So the narrower nut/string spacing makes fretting two courses easier. How does string spacing affect picking the melody? Is it easier to get from string to string when playing fast, or are you more likely to hit the wrong string by mistake?

There is some difference in the picking when you play with a narrower string spacing. I have not found that I have more mistakes or anything like that, but I did have to pay a bit more attention to picking well.
I also found an interesting advantage in that I felt I could bounce better from one course to another. That is, when I get a bit more oomph going into my picking, I can use that rebound momentum to better move me from one course to another.
Mind you I did not notice that difference until I fully went down to a 1" nut width.

[FatBear]

Do the strings within a course get closer together when you go to a narrower nut? (Or the inverse if you go to a wider nut?)

[robert.najlis]

Do the strings within a course get closer together when you go to a narrower nut? (Or the inverse if you go to a wider nut?)

It can be, but it depends. As been noted (I forget if it was in this thread or another) you can have a wider nut width with the same string spacing as a narrower one. So string spacing and nut width are two separate variables. However, when you get down to 1" nut width, you are pretty much going to have narrower string spacing than you would with a 1 3/16" nut width.

[foldedpath]

So the narrower nut/string spacing makes fretting two courses easier. How does string spacing affect picking the melody? Is it easier to get from string to string when playing fast, or are you more likely to hit the wrong string by mistake?

It doesn't necessarily follow that strings spaced wider apart at the nut than "standard," will also be wider than standard spacing at the saddle. It could go either way, depending on how the instrument is set up.

My personal view is that you wouldn't gain anything useful with wider spacing at the saddle,* and it might inhibit some techniques like crosspicking and multi-string tremolo. The closer your string courses are at the saddle, the less hand motion required when you're sweeping across the strings with full-string tremolo. Aside from the difference in tone, that's probably why you see many players move their tremolo sweep up across the lower end of the fretboard instead of the normal picking position. The strings are closer together up there.

*There is one specific case where wider spacing at the saddle is useful, and that's if you're going to spend most of your time fingerpicking the mandolin, instead of the usual flatpick technique. I have a Breedlove mandola (photo in the current Breedlove thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?107294-How-can-a-Breedlove-breed-more-love&p=1301661&viewfull=1#post1301661)) designed from scratch as a fingerstyle machine. String spacing is wider at the nut and the saddle, for the same reasons that classical guitars have wide nuts and wide saddle spacing; for room to get your fingers in and around the strings. On the other hand, it takes more work to play this mandola with a flatpick, which is why I wouldn't recommend it unless you're going into the very niche area of fingerpicked mandolin (and then, I'd recommend single strings instead of double courses also).

[FatBear]

I saw and heard Radim play that mandola of his in a house concert in Portland last fall. Absolutely phenomenal.

Oh, and thank you for that very informative explanation of the string spacing.

[Eddie Sheehy]

My Givens F5 has a 1" nut. My Sorensen has a custom 1 3/16" nut. My other mandos are 1 1/8", except for a 1900 bowl back with a 1" nut. Mandola 1 1/4", OM 1 1/2", MC 1 3/4", Ciittern 2" ...