Wildwood flower. [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

mandodebbie

Mar-11-2005, 8:12pm

As an amateaur naturalist and member of my local Natural History Society, I will assure you that there is no singular plant called "Wildwood Flower" by name. However, in the song - which was the first "bluegrass-type" music I have ever learned - there is mention of various wild woodland flowers of which the heartbroken lady wants to "twine and mingle in...(her)...raven black hair". They are as such: Roses (so red) and lillies (so fair) and the myrtle (so green of a bright verden hue). The pale amanita (a poisonous mushroom?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif) and the islips (so blue). She also states that her true love refered to her as his wildwood flower. That is, before he dumped her for another. There is no mention of prairie crocuses, dang it. Well, she is mountain girl, after all. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

jim simpson

Mar-11-2005, 8:50pm

Jim Stafford and Don Bowman wrote a song in 1974, which was recorded by Jim Stafford called, "Wildwood Weed."

My favorite part of the song is "take a trip and never leave the barn".

TommyK

Mar-11-2005, 9:00pm

Pronounced "Wilewood Flaaarr".
Only in Virginny
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

TommyK

Mar-11-2005, 9:03pm

Also, Jim Stafford and Don Bowman wrote a song in 1974, which was recorded by Jim Stafford called, "Wildwood Weed." The lyrics make it clear that the title is a euphemism for marijuana.
I suspect Stafford's song was a bastagization of the Famous Carter Family's song. I would 'spect A.P. wouldn't have glorified an instrument of the devil (cannabis sativa) in one of his songs.

csstanley

Mar-11-2005, 9:09pm

Pronounced "Wilewood Flaaarr".
Only in Virginny
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
And in Caroliner too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

TommyK

Mar-11-2005, 9:16pm

Reason I'm asking is that I've come to appreciate the songs A.P. collected from the mountain folk of them parts and am trying to do them honor in my own small way. #Currently I'm working on A.Ps arrangements and WWF being one of them. #I also noticed that in the of center sister June's autoharp is the outline of a flower. (Did this belong to Mother Maybelle?) #I thought that stencilin' might be of the elusive WWF. #
My plan to show respect for the family, is to have a likeness of the WWF painted on the upper treble bout of my axe. #Tastefully done, of course. #(Put away the lynchin' tools boys, It's my axe and I have good intentions. At least I ain't putin' on a coat of Rustoleum.)
I am beginning to believe the WWF is meant to refer to a collection of flowers and can pick from many of them. #I may just try to replicate the flower of Sister June's autoharp, with color of course. #Maybe five white ray flowers (okay, okay flaars) and a yellow or pink disk flaar.

Jonathan Reinhardt

Mar-11-2005, 9:58pm

We botanists are cringing.
Now A.P. just might have changed one flower into another if it suited him.
It's a lovely song, at any rate. I first learned the tune as the "
The Sinking of the Ruben James"! Was glad to get back to the woods later on in life, when I finally had the good sense to dig into the Carter Family songs. My most recent attention has been on "Diamonds in the Rough".

rasa

TommyK

Mar-11-2005, 10:44pm

We botanists are cringing. rasa
So Rasa, you're a botanist? I hate to make you cringe. Can you tell me what a Wildwood flower is? Is there a more common name? Do you know the proper latin nomenclature? Is it a name which refers to a collection of plants as in wild flowers.

When I was a kid we walked the beans cutting out, among other things a weed we called 'button weed'. Now in southern climes, a button weed is decidedly different than what we identify here in Illinois. In fact the central Illinois 'button weed' has a heart shaped, velvety leaf of 3 - 6 inches in diameter and can grow to 12' tall or taller on a woody stem. It has seed pods, the size of your thumb (well my thumb anyway), that looks a little like the Adams family's flesh eating plant. Kind of ball shaped with ribs and a circle of spines at the top. The women folk used to, might still, paint the podded stems up in silver or gold or other color when they got dry and hard and put them in flower, oops flaar, arrangemnts. Our 'button weed' goes by a few other names in central Illinois too, Butter Print and Velvet Leaf. I think Velvet Leaf is the most universally accepted.

So, I'm wondering if there is a more widely accepted name for A.Ps Wildwood Flower. I need to know so I can google or otherwise look it up in botanical books.
(Yes I am old enough to know how to look things up in a library, I used a card catalogue, just last week to the surprise of the children here at thecollege. It worked when the 'puter didn't. The pubescent library assistant warned, "It hasn't been updated since 1988!" I said, "That's okay, I'm looking for an LPs." the college has 1,000s of them. Famous Carter Family recorded in 1935!, Flatt & Skrugs, Doc Watson, Roy Clark, et.al.)

MartinD_GibsonA

Mar-12-2005, 12:22am

written by Maud Irving, J.P. Webster and A.P. Carter
Actually, the research I've done on it suggests that Maud Irving and J P Webster wrote the song around 1860 and called it "I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets". #A P Carter reworked it *much* later, called it "Wildwood Flower" and copyrighted it to get the royalties.

Don Smith

Jonathan Reinhardt

Mar-12-2005, 10:22am

Don's right. And in typical A.P. fashion he did as little as necessary to it to make it his.

Tommy - it's a goose chase. There have been many who have attempted this - though it is doubtful that it is the point of the song. Rather the point would be that a wildwood flower or spring wild flower is epheremal, that is they bloom quickly, early in the spring (before the forest canopy fills out), and last but briefly.
There are flower references in the verse of the raven (raving?) hair, but these are not necessarily wild flowers, but plants that were commonly used in the garden. There are of course, many wild species of rose, a much more sun loving plant, found in more open spaces. There are also several native species of lily.
I don't think the song attempted to reference a specific flowering plant but was a poetic comparison of the relationship's short duration with the short duration of wildflower bloom.
Botanical nomenclature is rarely used by songwriters - and common plant names, as you know, vary greatly from region to region and time period to time period. Shakespeare is an interesting study in this regard. So although plants are sometimes identifiable from common names, there is more often confusion and much room for error when trying to determine the correct Genus and species.
Re: collections - it was common for women of the time (late 1800's) to collect and draw wildflowers. Although more, and perhaps better, documented in England and Europe, it was done in the United States as well. Some of the finest botanical drawings can be found in private collections of this type. There are also actual specimens collected for this purpose, but they tend to have survived less favorably. Many women, as amateur #botanists, were most professional in every sense, lacking only the university degrees and professional recognition they deserved at the time.

rasa

John Flynn

Mar-12-2005, 10:28am

Tommy: I think if you use some "wildwood weeds" you'll stop worrying about this! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mandodebbie

Mar-12-2005, 1:28pm

I looked up your "wildwood weed" in my field guide. The Latin name is cannibis satava (spelling?). It is also known as "medicinal hemp'. Hmmm. Could it have helped that poor girl in the song? Only her local shamanic practitoner would know. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

TommyK

Mar-14-2005, 3:18pm

I'm not old enough for the 'legalized' devil weed: Nicotiana tabacum. #Let alone the illegal stuff. #I know so, because my daddy done tol' me so, and he says he's too young to start too! (he's 66)

Thanks Rasa for the informative input, especially insight to the analogy of the short lived nature of flowers of the woods and that of the relationship. #

I believe 'Raven black' is correct, as in, "Quoth the raven, 'Never more.'" #

I've thought about it and since Mabelle's mother, #and her mother's mother all sang it, it's exact origins have been lost in the mists of time. #Since 'Wildwood flaar' seems to be a generic or fantasy name or as you put it ephemeral, I think I'll borrow Sister June's stencil on her autoharp and go from there. #And when anyone asks I can say with confidence, "It's a Wildwood Flower," without an astute flowercologist saying, "nope, nope, what you have there is a Pinkus domesticum."

Thanks again Rasa!

In APs defense, if traipsing through the hills and hollers of the Tri-state area, (maybe 5 or more states), listening to music, transcribing it, transposing and in some cases translating it doesn't earn him the right to copyright it then I don't know what does. #At any rate he and others did facilitate saving 'mountain music' for posterity. #The women folk in his family; Sara, Maybelle and the girls did the most important job, getting the word out by performing it beautifully.

"You are my sunshine, my only sunshine. #You make me happy......" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jonathan Reinhardt

Mar-14-2005, 5:10pm

You're welcome. Nothing like a little botany to liven up a mandolin discussion.
I agree, Tommy, re: the contribution of the Carters. They are some of my all time favorite makers and preservers of music. It remains a special moment in country music history. And I 'm not knocking A.P., but rather observing how he changed as little as possible. It's a common trend in the taking of the earlier versions of this music thru various steps of publishing. Merle Travis, Albert Brumley, etc. for example. It's a long time since 1930, and I'm sure that it was not an easy journey for the Carter family to accomplish as much as they did. Did you know they actually only gigged periodically? Probably so they could attend to the realities of their daily lives.
I haven't ever seen June's autoharp, only those used by Sara and Maybelle earlier on. Yes, Maybelle played one, although she is known for her guitar. I think A.P. played the autoharp. If you can post or msg. me, tell me where I can see June's, or even mail or fax me a facsimile, I can try to i.d. it for you. Depends on who did the work. Rarely have I seen botanical accuracy, even though some makers/inlayers/painters actually kept/keep a certain degree of correctness in their designs.
Interesting that you mention Pink, as there has been some talk over the years that "the" wildflower might be a Dianthus sp. #(sorry, can't get the italics to cooperate.) There are several, ranged along the east coast of the U.S. into the mountains, commonly referred to as Pinks, members of the family Caryophyllacae. Doubtful, in my opinion. And, actually, some species of Dianthus are cultivated varieties or escapees rather than true wildflowers.
But that stencil, or inlay, may be patterned after a flower such as that.

rasa
who also plays autoharp

Mandodoc

Mar-14-2005, 5:57pm

Interesting tread. Very informative.
jon

Jonathan Reinhardt

Mar-15-2005, 11:47am

Tommy - June's autoharp was made by George Orthey in Newport, PA, and that flower is his logo/trademark. Being cut as a soundhole leaves a bit of detail out! but his regular logo has that five petal wildflower. So contact him, as it appears he didn't just make it up, but he probably had a wildflower in mind or as a model when he created the design. He doesn't seem to have an e-mail, but has a website. I can't get seem to get the http button to do what it's supposed to do for me, so just look it up. Orthey Autoharp. Kindly let me know what he says.

rasa

TommyK

Mar-15-2005, 2:26pm

Here is my sighting of 'Sister June's' autoharp.

http://maninblack.net/cashphotos/press.jpg
from: #http://maninblack.net/cashphotos/press.jpg #IMHO a great site to get lost in.
5 petals, alternate leaves and a long 'viney' stem to the flower. #I don't know if this is a stencil or sound hole, I'm not real familiar with autoharps other than I like the sound of them. #I think it's on an album cover or it IS the album cover. #

I hope I didn't indvertently indicate a real plant with Pinkus domesticus. My limited remembry of botany left me with Zea maize, Glycine max #and Poa acae #everything else is a RoadRunner episode. #I guess Dianthuseses.. uh.. Dianthusi..(sp?) are also know as 'pinks' aren't they? #Where is Dan Quayle whe you need him??? #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

TommyK

Mar-15-2005, 2:46pm

btw Rasa,
Don't worry about botany being off topic on mandos. #If it weren't for botany they'd be no spruce, rosewood, mahogany or maple. #We'd all be listening to dobros, banjos and drums! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
And Gibson would be without a pot to flaar in!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Moose

Mar-15-2005, 2:52pm

Jonathan Reinhardt

Mar-15-2005, 4:52pm

Glad to keep you alert, Moose. Now trying to keep a whole bunch of students' attentive is another matter.

It's a soundhole, and Dr. Orthey's logo has this same flower in the center also.

rasa

Michael H Geimer

Mar-15-2005, 6:57pm

Maybelle didn't just play the autoharp, she fingerpicked that darn thing! She would wear fingerpicks like a banjo player, and then use the buttons to unmute the strings she wanted to pick.

There's a nice Johnny Cash quote about how he "could listen to Maybelle play 'Wildwood Flower' on the autoharp for hours."

- Benig

TommyK

Mar-16-2005, 9:28am

I been follow'n this thread with rapt attention - now I can list this "classic" under "drug songs" in my set list! - the discussion among the botanists on this CAFE is really interesting!! - ya' can learn somethin' every day. # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Nope, nope, Wildwood Flower is not a drug song. It's about love and love lost. But, if this type of music takes your mind off worldly pursuits of wacky substances then go ahead and list it.

TommyK

Mar-16-2005, 5:53pm

I decided to goggle some of the other suggestions like emanita
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Wow, this whole song is steeped in mystery. #There's discussion boards going back to 1998 and still no definitive answer. #Pale and leander in some aronatus in some or amaryllis and violets, or is it emanita and hyssop?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? all but a couple of which can't be identified as a plant name.
To top it off, even Mother Maybelle has been quoted as saying she didnt' know the meaning of some of words she recoreded only that it was as her mamma passed down!!!
THEN there's stoners who believe it is wilwood WEED in reality. #THEN someone writes a male's response of the same title???
Ahhhh such is folk music.

ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think I'll learn a diffrn't song: Marezy Doates

How does that go? #Oh yeah:
"Maresey doates and dozy doates and little lambsy divey
and little divey doo wouldn't you!"

Much easier to understand.#Can anyone tell me what a 'Marzey doate' is? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

grant_eversoll

Mar-16-2005, 8:42pm

you are kidding right?
Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy. A kid 'ill eat ivy too wouldn't you?

Then there is that song where Jimmy Hendrix tells the world he is gay...how dose that go again...oh yea, "Scuse me while I kiss this guy"

levin4now

Mar-16-2005, 10:23pm

While visiting this forum, I prefer the botanical discussions that relate to the figuring of maple!

MartinD_GibsonA

Mar-16-2005, 10:36pm

The words to the original song, "I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets" are here (http://www.bobdylanroots.com/wwflower.html#ringlet). #Once you read it, you can see how much AP changed it around and made the first verse pretty non-sensical. #I think he was abusing the Wildwood Weed when he did it! #

Don Smith # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

TommyK

Mar-17-2005, 1:51pm

Actually, APs version is probably as Maybelle or Sara dictated it to him. #Maybelle is reported to have said in an interview she wasn't sure of the meaning of some of the words. #She just sang it the way her mother, or the way she thought she HEARD her mother sing it. #Her mother sang it the way HER mother sang it, or the way she HEARD HER mother sing it. #Finally, after at least three generations, AP wrote it down. #Mingles? pale and the leader... who knows?

Anybody ever play the telephone game?

We sometimes do things the same way because "that's the way we always done it" sometimes for generations, sometimes for a millenia.
There is a story about a woman busy getting ready for Easter dinner with the family. #She instructed her husband to get the ham at the store and to not forget to have him cut the end off. #The husband dutifully obliged. #The butcher asked why he needed to cut the end off. #The husband said, "Well, I don't rightly know." #
Easter afternoon while the kids were hunting eggs, the husband asked his wife, "Why do you have the end of the ham cut off?" #The wife says, "I don't know. That's the way we always have done it. Let's ask Mom." #Mom replied, "I don't know. That's the way we always have done it. Let's ask Grandma." #Grandma, when asked answered, "Why WE always cut the end of the ham off? Why, I did it because I had a small roaster. #Why you do it, I haven't a clue." #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Someday I'll tell you about why the size of a solid booster rocket used in the space shuttle, is partly due to the size of Roman horse's hind quarters. Actually, a pair of them.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif