oneil's music of Ireland

[John Bertotti]

Here are three songs
The Groves of Blackpool
The Woods of Kilmurry
Mary's Return

I am wondering if it is common for the songs to be so short. Should they be repeated or is this length common. I feel like I'm only just getting started and it's over. Thanks John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Jim M.]

Yes, that's a pretty standard length. You generally play them AABB, so you repeat internally, and then you play the entire song more than once. What is also done is to play two or three (or more) songs without a break, but even then you'd generally repeat each song at least once. For example, the group I was in would do Road to Lisdoonvarna followed by Lanigan's Ball, each song repeated 3 times. During a performance, we would vary each repeat a little.

[John Bertotti]

Thanks does play them AABB mean the first song twice in a row then the second song twice in a row?
I bought some Greek mandolinatas from Victor in the classical section. It is also common for Greek folk to be played non stop, one song after another and another etc... as I understand it.
What does that have to do with this? Nothing really just an observation on the commonality of music even across large areas. Thanks John

[onthefiddle]

Hi John,

Most traditional tunes from the Britsih Isles have two parts (although some have many more). AABB means repeat the first part twice, then repeat the second part twice. That's once round the tune, it's normal to play a tune about three times and then move on to another.

To make this more interesting there are often variations on the parts, and of course you can vary your ornamentation each time you play a part.

There are quite a few longer tunes as well, a favourite of mine is The Strayaway Child, which if I remember rightly has five parts(?), so will take you a while longer to finish (AABBCCDDEE * 3!)

Jon

[John Bertotti]

Hey Jon thanks, now to verify some notation. Are the parts separated by the double vertical bar at the end of the measure. In this case, The Woods of Kilmurry, there are nine measures then the end of the ninth measure has a double bar. The end of the next nine is the same. Thanks John

[Bob DeVellis]

John there are probably eight measures per part, with an additional measure indicating a lead-in or transition. So, in the classical tune set, it's 16 measures of part A (8 measures twice), 16 of part B, repeat AA-BB at least once and often twice, then on to the next tune, with another set of AA-BB played either twice or three times. Typically, a tune is played and then repeated once if there are three tunes in the set, or played and repeated twice if there are only two in the set. So, it's XX-YY-ZZ (where X, Y, and Z are each separte tunes played in the AA-BB pattern) or XXX-YYY.

There's a million vriations, though. Playing for danceers will often entail repeating the same tune until the dancers are ready to drop. Set dances often don't follow the usual AA-BB pattern or have parts that are of odd lengths, such as 20 bars instead of the ususal 16. But the vast majority are two-part tunes with each part repeated, the whole tune then repeated for two or three iterations, and two or more tunes strung together in a set. Whew, that's harder to explain than it is to play.

[Jim M.]

Yes, O'Neills does not use the traditional repeat sign; there is just a double bar at the end of part A. Oh, "Kid on the Mountain" is another 5-part jig. Tim O'Brien does a great version, so AABBCCDDEE on that one too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[onthefiddle]

Hello again John,

The various threads we've met on recently have made me think that there is one tune that you really should take a look at - "The Vega Mandolin" (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/2548)!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jon

[John Bertotti]

Thanks Jon, I'm trying to use barfly. Just exactly is the correct notes per minute to use in this program for the different reels and jigs and such?Thanks John

[onthefiddle]

I'm not familiar with Barfly John, it appears to be a Mac program - and I'm on a PC.
I'll dig out my Metronome later (I really should use it more) and work out what bpm I play this at. I wouldn't feel too constrained about what tempo to use though.

Jigs are generally a little slower than reels - which normally range in speed from fast to fingerbusting! Just to prove that there are no really strict rules in this - there are also some hauntingly beautiful slow reels as well. For instance Dobbin's Flowery Vale (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/323) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jon

[MandoJon]

Can I suggest that you have a look at The Session (http://www.thesession.org/). This is a web site with a HUGE number of transcribed traditional Celtic tunes available for download. They are in ABC format (which is a very compact text format) and you can get free ABC players (a bit like TebleEdit - in fact I think TableEdit will play ABC files) from the Links section. The nice thing is you can see the standard notation laid out either on the website itself or in the ABC notation viewer and if you get one like ABC Navigator (http://abcnavigator.free.fr/) it will also play the tune to you (granted its a bit of a tinny Midi sound but, hey, it's enough to know what's happening).

Look at a few and you'll soon see how Trad Celtic tunes work. Hope this helps.

[MandoJon]

PS and if you want to download the whole of O'Neill's in ABC format to run through your new (free) software have a look here (http://www.guitarnut.com/folktablature/oneills/)!

[John Bertotti]

MandoJon, I am using barfly, a mac based abc program with the functions you listed. I already have O'Neils downloaded and slowly have been working my way through it. I have also been to the sessions. Cool site. In barfly you can change the notes per minute. It was set to 300 which of course is a default ,I think. I need to know a rule of thumb for what to set the notes per minute to for given style of tune. Reel Jig etc.. Thanks John

[MandoJon]

I already have O'Neils downloaded and slowly have been working my way through it. I have also been to the sessions.

Oops! Teaching you to suck eggs! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


I need to know a rule of thumb for what to set the notes per minute to for given style of tune. Reel Jig etc

Aah! There you open a large can of worms! There are quite a few threads about metronome speed on bother The Session and this board (somewhere - but I've forgotten). If my memory serves me, a dancable reel is about 120BPM but may be a bit faster in a Session where nobody is dancing. A jig is similar and a hornpipe is slower. More experience people than me have given more exact speeds in The Session. I found them by searching using the keywords "Metronome" and "Speed". I'd recomend you have a look at what they're saying.

Padraig Caroll in his book "The Irish Mandolin" said something like "you know you're playing too fast if you can't dance to it." I'm paraphrasing because it's a long time since I read that book.

[onthefiddle]

It took me a while longer to dig that metronome out than I anticipated!

I played through a series of jigs, and found that personally I vary my speed quite a bit according to what I feel suits the tune. Of course if you're playing for dancers this is a luxury you can't indulge in.

Basically I concur with MandoJon's 120Bpm, but would play some tunes more slowly. For instance I play "The Strayaway Child" (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/134) considerably slower at between 84 and 92Bpm, and "The Vega Mandolin" a little faster at about 104Bpm, while I probably play "The Kid on the Mountain" at faster than 120Bpm in sessions.

I've certainly been to plenty of sessions where any theoretical dancers would need to be Bionic! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That said, if you're playing for your own pleasure, then I would play as fast or as slow as you like - whatever works for you on any particular tune.

Jon

[Bob DeVellis]

As an aside, dancers (and dance instructors) have told me on several occasions that better dancers prefer slower music than their less accomplished counterparts. The reason, I'm told, is that the better dancers do far more by way of embellishment, which consumes time.

[whistler]

The sort of structures to which people have been referring in this thread apply primarily to dance music. We should take notice of the fact that, O'Neill's collection is made up mostly, but not exclusively, of dance tunes (jigs, reels, hornpipes etc.). Of the three tunes that John B. lists, the first two, at least, strike me as perhaps being song airs (although, they have very likely been played as dance tunes at some time). Whilst many Irish songs are sung to variants of dance tunes (or dance tunes are made out of song airs), the sung variants do not usually have internal repeats - i.e. AB rather than AABB.

It is, of course, entirely possible that the repeat signs were omitted. Or perhaps, at the time when these tunes were notated, it was not unusual for them to be played without repeats. John - there is nothing to stop you from repeating the parts, if it sounds or feels better to you.

[Billiam]

Basically I concur with MandoJon's 120Bpm, but would play some tunes more slowly. For instance I play "The Strayaway Child" considerably slower at between 84 and 92Bpm, and "The Vega Mandolin" a little faster at about 104Bpm, while I probably play "The Kid on the Mountain" at faster than 120Bpm in sessions.

Jon
I've been working from Steve Kaufman's "Encyclopedia of Celtic Tunes". His notes on tempo say:

hornpipes - a quarter note = 180 bpm
reels - quarter note = 225 bpm
slow jigs - a dotted quarter note = 80 bpm
double jigs - a dotted quarter note = 126 bpm
slip jigs - a dotted quarter note = 144 bpm

Now, I'm a pretty new player, and I'm working without a teacher. I can maybe stumble through the first few hornpipes in Kaufman's book at a quarter note = 150 bpm, but at that pace I'm pushing pretty hard. Triplets at that speed are beyond me. I know I will get faster, but 180 seems awfully fast to dance to!

The 120 bmp for a reel mentioned in this thread is less than 1/2 of Kauffman's tempo. What am I missing here?

[Jim Roberts]

Billam: #

A great instructional book is "Irish Mandolin Playing: A complete Guide" by Philip John Berthoud. #It's a Mel Bay publication and comes with a CD. My favorite reel thus far in his book is "Sergeant Early's Dream" and a set dance tune entitled "The King of Fairies." #Plenty of triplets in many of the tunes with instruction on how to nail the triplets!

Anyone know of any mandolin camps in Ireland or Scotland?

[RolandTumble]

The 120 bmp for a reel mentioned in this thread is less than 1/2 of Kauffman's tempo. What am I missing here?
Many people notate reels with sixteenths in 2/4 instead of with eighths in 4/4. So a nominal quarter note would account for twice as many of the "real" notes of the tune, and double the nominal tempo would work out to be just the same....

Another common notation is cut time (2/2), which should be the same nominal temo as 4/4--but maybe (if he's using cut time), he slipped a cog and meant half note = 225.

[John Bertotti]

Now this is good dialog. Thanks I have something more to work with now. One thing though is this thread really makes me want to visit Ireland. Thanks John

[Billiam]

Many people notate reels with sixteenths in 2/4 instead of with eighths in 4/4. So a nominal quarter note would account for twice as many of the "real" notes of the tune, and double the nominal tempo would work out to be just the same....

Another common notation is cut time (2/2), which should be the same nominal temo as 4/4--but maybe (if he's using cut time), he slipped a cog and meant half note = 225.
Kaufman's notation is eighth notes in 4/4 time for reels and hornpipes, 3/4 for waltzes, and 6/8 for jigs. I guess he knows some pretty fast dancers! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[RolandTumble]

Well, for waltzes & jigs the time signatures are "by definition".

With reels (and, to a lesser extent, hornpipes), it's "whatever gives the feel". I think of reels in 4/4, but accent the 1 & 3 enough that I might as well be cut time (I model my playing more on the "drive" of Donegal than the "lift" of some southern-county styles, for which you'd accent 2 & 4).