Tuning in Fifths

[Shanahan]

I was in the school's practice rooms with a friend of mine in the orchestra, a viola player. We were playing some Bach, and something sounded off to her - apparently my A string was out of tune. I couldn't hear it, but her ear's better than mine. I took out my tuner to check - yep, perfectly tuned. She said you can't trust the Snark, you need to tune the first string to a piano or memorize the pitch and tune the rest of the strings in fifths by ear to be properly in tune. She didn't know why, that's just how it was.

So what's going on here? Is she full of it, or are electronic tuners a bad idea?

[Steve L]

Electronic tuners are neither perfect, nor a bad idea. I think the likelihood of a piano in a school music room being out of tune is high. Your friend may have perfect pitch, which has it's own set of baggage.

[Mark Wilson]

Try this. Tune with the snark until it reads in tune on all strings. Then... slowly turn the tuners and observe carefully with your ear. You should hear the pitch change without seeing the tuner recognize it. There is enough deadband in most snark like tuners to be off to a careful ear. If you don't observe this you could have an exceptional snark or you are less sensitive to pitch.

This deadband is what makes them usable in live performances. It takes less time to set them even if they are not perfect.

[Bertram Henze]

I guess an electronic tuner works in equal temperament, i.e. a fifth would make a frequency ratio of 2**(7/12) = 1.498. The human ear tends to exactly hear rational frequency ratios, i.e. a pure fifth is 3/2 = 1.5, and violin family players have excellent training with that. This is independent of perfect pitch, btw.
I normally tune D and A courses exactly by tuner, G course just a tiny bit below and E course a tiny bit above what the tuner says.

[Tobin]

I agree, electronic tuners are only going to get you so close (it's not just Snarks, it's all of them). If a tuner is too sensitive, it will just oscillate back and forth, never really 'locking on' to anything, and you'll play hell trying to figure out where you are. So they need to have an intentional level of under-sensitivity. They will get you in the ballpark. But you have to do the rest by ear. What I usually do is use the Snark to get my tuning "in the green" on one string of the course, then play both strings of the course together, using my ear to tune the second one up to it. After they are in unison, I play them with the adjacent courses to check if the fifth interval sounds good. This can often lead to multiple iterations of 'sweetening' different courses to get them all in check with each other. It can take some time, but it's well worth the effort.

Everyone's ears will have different sensitivities to this, but I think you can train your ear to it over time. When the fifth interval sounds a little sour, try some very fine tuning adjustments and listen for the difference. You really have to get rid of all surrounding noise (like the television, A/C fan, etc.) to truly hear it well.

What complicates it is that a fretted instrument like the mandolin can be tuned almost perfectly with open strings, but then it may sound a little 'off' when certain strings are fretted at certain places. It will never be perfect on all strings, at all frets. So you have to find a balance that works for you between open strings and fretted positions so that you get a good compromise. And what's worse is that this compromise is constantly changing as your strings wear in and stretch. Being a perfectionist can make it maddening, and it's almost an art form to learn how to find the best compromise.

[roysboy]

I use the snarks and similar . I always have to tweak by ear for recording . It's like the issue with the unwound G on electric guitars. Many studio engineers re-tune stringed instruments to the position and not just to themselves . Especially , of course, where capos may be involved . Mandolins seem to need constant tuning attention regardless of quality of tuner Or pegs. I watched Thile tune constantly with Punch Bros recently . Scaggs, Steffey , Rhonda Vincent...always tuning .

[Martin Jonas]

So what's going on here? Is she full of it, or are electronic tuners a bad idea?

It's a common complaint from (some) bowed string players: to their ears all fretted instruments sound out of tune. That's because they routinely and sub-consciously make micro adjustments to intonation with their finger positions -- which also requires them to have a highly-trained ear for intonation differences -- while we are stuck with the compromises that come with fixed fret positions. It's also one of the reasons why classical violinists avoid open strings: they can't adjust intonation.

Martin

[foldedpath]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but she's full of it. :)

She's right about using that method on a fretless instrument like viola. It's how all (or nearly all) fiddle players tune up, by reference to A440 on the A string, and then tuning the other strings by listening to "beats" from the phase cancellation as the strings approach perfect fifths. There are even some electronic tuners that have a 5ths tuning mode for this. My fiddler S.O. uses one in Irish/Scottish sessions because it's often too loud to tune by ear.

However! This doesn't work on a fretted instrument like a mandolin, with frets laid out for 12-tone equal temperament. That's why we use electronic tuners set for 12TET tuning. Like any 12TET instrument, our 5ths are never quite perfect, but we can easily play those 5ths in any key. A fiddler is able to play in any key with good intonation with subtle, instinctive shifts of finger position.

In theory, this means that when I play music at home on guitar or mandolin with my S.O. and her fiddle, only our open A strings match, because I'm using a 12TET setting on my electronic tuner, and she's either tuning with beats by ear, or using her tuner set to a perfect 5ths GDAE tuning. My open G, D, and E strings don't ever quite match hers on the fiddle.

In practice however, it's not a big deal and it works well enough to play music together. It does explain though, why certain musical configurations like a string quartet can meld together so smoothly, and probably why your viola player's ear is getting a little bent listening to your mandolin's tuning (assuming your intonation is set well to begin with). You can never quite get that same locked-in intonation in a given key, on a fretted instrument.

[foldedpath]

A side note on another 121TET limitation you might run into. When you get into genres based around diatonic/idiomatic instruments like Irish and Scottish trad, you'll run into things like the "Piper's C". I've also heard it called "C Supernatural." It's a note pitched a little sharper than C natural, but not as high as a C#.

It's something you'll hear when a Uilleann piper plays a tune like An Phis Fhliuch (a.k.a. O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick, The Choice Wife), It's probably a result of the way a cross-fingered C nat sounds on pipes, whistles, and flutes. Some Irish fiddlers go there too, either from following the pipes or just because that's the way they hear the tune.

It's a problem on mandolin. Not so much when I play a tune like that at home where I just hit the C natural, but in a session where pipes and fiddlers are using that bent C, my mandolin sounds sour against the group's pitch. Especially if I finger it as a partial C chord, which I usually do when playing it at home. Just can't get there on the mandolin. I carry on regardless, but leave out the partial chord that makes it sound even more sour.

[stevedenver]

shes not full of it, in the sense of training your ears.

first, some folks have great ability and perfect pitch, some will be better than YOU at hearing things, some will not be as good

second it can be developed by using your ears and practice and patience and mindfulness.

third, as noted above, a lot will depend upon your mando having proper intonation-do not underestimate how important this is to sounding in tune as you go up the neck-(ie is your bridge perfectly placed and angled and set for height)

fourth-I have tuned by ear (and using a tuning fork pre electronic tuners) for years. I cannot tell you why, but there are times I dial in and there are others I am not as precise or even able-don't know if its some sort of ear fatigue from long sessions, or lack of sleep or instruments around me, or, my mando is settling and changing as I play-sort of a moving target tuning -wise-but

suffice it to say electronic tuners are superb for purposes of getting close to in tune, quickly, even if you cannot hear clearly, and 'close enough' to continue when performing-they can be a compass in the dark

its not an either/ or choice-use your ears when you can and have the time , use a tuner to get it right or check yourself, or when you cant seem to get the 'damn thing' right-often I think something is off , when in fact I am assuming a string is in tune , giving the perception that an adjacent string is sharp or flat, when in fact its another string just slightly off.

I can get close to pitch without reference on guitar and mando, by ear, and string tension, and being familiar with how my instrument is responding to whatever pitch I have guessed. (not a substitution for a reference note-but you can learn to come close)

[Tom Wright]

Not enough info in the original post to answer the question---was the viola player complaining about the open A or notes on the A? If the latter, all the setup issues are a factor. Also, was the viola player tuned to a piano that was out of tune?

On my mandolins a Peterson tuner shows the attack as sharp to the decay (or the decay is flat to the attack). The viola player may have been hearing a sharp attack while the poster was watching the in-tune decay on the tuner display. Compromise is needed for the playing conditions.

The issue of tuning fifths doesn't seem involved here--presumably the viola was tuned to a piano or pitchfork A.

[foldedpath]

The issue of tuning fifths doesn't seem involved here--presumably the viola was tuned to a piano or pitchfork A.

The violist's A string would be tuned to a reference pitch, but standard practice would be to tune the other strings by hearing phase beats against adjacent strings to reach perfect 5ths. If it's not a perfect 5ths/Just intonation vs. 12TET issue, then the OP's mandolin might have been out of intonation due to bridge position, old strings, or something else.

[jim33]

This is a very interesting discussion that prompted me to do some research. It tuns out that this issue is real and has existed for a very long time.

Here is a clever explanation of what is happening:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/04/the_wolf_at_our_heels.html

[jso]

It's a common complaint from (some) bowed string players: to their ears all fretted instruments sound out of tune. That's because they routinely and sub-consciously make micro adjustments to intonation with their finger positions -- which also requires them to have a highly-trained ear for intonation differences -- while we are stuck with the compromises that come with fixed fret positions. It's also one of the reasons why classical violinists avoid open strings: they can't adjust intonation. Martin

That's very true. If my fiddle isn't quite in tune, I can get away with it by adjusting finger positions, almost subconsciously...until I play an open string! In any case, an open string (even if in tune) can sound a bit strident amongst other fingered notes...so the fourth finger is a often a better choice!

[Mandolincelli]

I'm just glad to know that I'm not the only guy whose ear is at odds with his tuner.

[John Flynn]

I am reminded of a joke about sopranos: "A diva soprano would rather sing sharp than be off-key!" ;)

I think it makes sense that if you are the solo or lead instrument, you should tune the way you want and anyone playing with you should tune the same way. If you are playing with an ensemble that uses electronic tuners, you should tune that way and sweeten it up by ear. Although electronic tuners may not be perfect, I have rarely heard a problem if everyone in an ensemble uses them consistently.

[Shanahan]

Thanks for the responses everyone, it made for very interesting reading. I'm definitely going to focus more on training my ear during tuning, but I'm not gonna throw that Snark away either. That link of yours was fascinating, jim.


Not enough info in the original post to answer the question

She was complaining about the open A in particular. The room we were in had an electronic keyboard on a stand, so I'm not sure that can be out of tune. I'm not familiar enough with pianos and keyboards. I'm not sure what you mean by 'sharp attack, flat decay' - I've only been playing music around a year and a half and never in a formal environment, so the only terminology I have comes from my music theory classes.

[Willie Poole]

I have found that some folks don`t use the tuner correctly, They tune one string and then go to another one and never go back over the complete set to see if applying tension on one string caused one of the others to go out, this very common and when I tune I go over mine at least three times checking all of the strings.....The way a string is settled into the nut and bridge slots also make them sound out of tune...As someone said, "close is usually good enough when playing with other instruments"...I have a stobescope and when I use it I see the vibrations constantly moving the indicator and it makes it almost impossible to tune with it, I use it mostly to check intonation only....

Willie

[tkdboyd]

'sharp attack, flat decay' There can be an in depth response, but a simple test for your own amusment: Clip on your Snark, pick the sting hard, and watch the readings on the tuner.

[JeffD]

I have found that some folks don`t use the tuner correctly, They tune one string and then go to another one and never go back over the complete set to see if applying tension on one string caused one of the others to go out...

Very true.

[JeffD]

I just purchased a Peterson tuner and it has various sweetener settings, and one for mandolin, which, if I understand correctly addresses this issue directly. I haven't played with it enough to really tell.

[foldedpath]

I just purchased a Peterson tuner and it has various sweetener settings, and one for mandolin, which, if I understand correctly addresses this issue directly. I haven't played with it enough to really tell.

The "sweetened" tunings in Peterson tuners only address the issue in a very incomplete way, because you can't get around the fact that your mandolin's frets are laid out in 12TET spacing. All a sweetener can do is tighten up the intervals in a few of the more common keys, which inevitably throws intervals further out (compared to straight 12TET) in other keys. It's fighting against the design and layout of your fretboard. It will also put you a little out of tune with anyone else playing a fretted instrument and using a standard electronic tuner.

It might be worth fooling with for solo playing, if you're in a key the sweetener is designed around. Since the mandolin is such a fussy critter to get into good intonation anyway, I just never bothered with it.

The only time I ever fooled with the sweetened tunings in my Peterson tuners was when I was playing a lot of slide guitar. Peterson has some sweetened Open G and Open D tunings with perfect thirds, and the intervals inside the chord don't change as you slide up and down the neck. As a fretted instrument player, that's the only time I've ever found the Peterson sweetened tunings useful, but YMMV. Experiment and see if it works for you.

[Martin Jonas]

Here is a clever explanation of what is happening:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/04/the_wolf_at_our_heels.html

Good article, with the added bonus of name-checking our very own Jim Dalton (http://singingstring.org/JD/mandolin.html).

Martin

[foldedpath]

This is a very interesting discussion that prompted me to do some research. It tuns out that this issue is real and has existed for a very long time.

Here is a clever explanation of what is happening:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/04/the_wolf_at_our_heels.html

I have the book mentioned in that article -- "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)" by Ross W. Duffin. It's a fascinating look at the history of scale systems and temperament systems, but the later part of the book is basically a rant about how certain Classical pieces should be approached with the piano. Not much relevance there for us fretted instrument players dealing with the folk and pop music of the last 150 years or so. If you're interested in the history, you can get the essentials from that Slate article and the Wikipedia page on Musical Temperament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament).

It may drive violinists and certain golden-eared pianists a little crazy, but 12-Tone Equal Temperament is something that everyone here has grown up with, listening to pop music and folk music. There must be a degree of cultural acclimation with this, because otherwise fretted instruments and keyboards wouldn't be so popular in the modern music scene. It's something I never thought about much myself, until I started hanging out with fiddle players, and getting into some of the "non-Western Classical Harmony" aspects of Irish traditional music.

[SincereCorgi]

I would take the opinion of anybody who claims to tune based on a 'memorized' pitch with a grain of salt. People's pitch sense is usually not quite as good as they think, even if can reliably get them pretty close. The Snarks are a great way to get people %98 of the way in tune for cheap. Besides, there's a reason bowed string players lay on that vibrato...

[mandroid]

did you hand the electronic tuner to the viola player and have them check what they thought was the right pitch?


yea, if the pitch on a fretless neck is not right you just roll the fingertip a little.

[jim33]

Let me see if I understand this. If a violin is perfectly tuned (in perfect fifths) and a mandolin is perfectly tuned (in 12-Tone Equal Temperament) both using reference A 440, they will not be in tune with each other. In this case the electronic tuner has nothing to do with it.

It is explained in the links in previous posts.

[bratsche]

The issue of tuning fifths doesn't seem involved here--presumably the viola was tuned to a piano or pitchfork A.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/50192/large/pitchforks.jpg :grin:

bratsche

[foldedpath]

Let me see if I understand this. If a violin is perfectly tuned (in perfect fifths) and a mandolin is perfectly tuned (in 12-Tone Equal Temperament) both using reference A 440, they will not be in tune with each other. In this case the electronic tuner has nothing to do with it.

You're almost there. If the mandolin and violin are tuned that way, then the open A strings on both instruments will match perfectly at A440. However, the open G, D, and E strings will be very slightly different. Remember we're talking about the open strings here.

Once the mandolin and violin player start playing actual music together and hitting notes other than on open strings, they'll probably be closer together, due to the way a violinist can make instinctive, subtle adjustments to pitch as they press strings on the fretboard.

The style of music can make a difference too. A fiddler probably wouldn't stray far from playing in equal temperament in a Bluegrass band ("blue notes" excepted), because it's dominated by fretted instruments -- mandolin, banjo, and guitar -- playing in equal temperament. In an Irish session or band, a fiddler might drift from fingering in equal temperament to follow a piper or flute player's diatonic pitch, and the guitar player or mandolin player at the session will be the odd ones out. The majority rules, usually.

Clear as mud? :)

[jim33]

I understand, thanks.

[Gregory Tidwell]

Honestly, I have yet to hear an A string that wasnt zingy in some way. They just ring differently to my ears than any other string on the mandolin.

[Dave LaBoone]

Honestly, I have yet to hear an A string that wasnt zingy in some way. They just ring differently to my ears than any other string on the mandolin.
I find that the wound A on a set of FT74s sounds less "zingy" than with any other string I've used. YMMV.

[chuck3]

This is a very interesting discussion that prompted me to do some research. It tuns out that this issue is real and has existed for a very long time.

Here is a clever explanation of what is happening:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/04/the_wolf_at_our_heels.html

I enjoyed this whole thread, and this article as well.

[BradKlein]

As far as the pitch changing from attack to decay - it's always seemed as if the vibration of the string increases the tension, and as it decays, that tension returns closer to the tension at rest. Using an electric tuner I think it's useful to tune to the loudest (early part of the note) and let it go slightly flat as it quietly decays. But I'm certainly no expert when it comes to tuning!

[Petrus]

It may drive violinists and certain golden-eared pianists a little crazy, but 12-Tone Equal Temperament is something that everyone here has grown up with, listening to pop music and folk music. There must be a degree of cultural acclimation with this, because otherwise fretted instruments and keyboards wouldn't be so popular in the modern music scene. It's something I never thought about much myself, until I started hanging out with fiddle players, and getting into some of the "non-Western Classical Harmony" aspects of Irish traditional music.

Harry Partch's 43-note just intonation system FTW. :cool:

[bratsche]

Honestly, I have yet to hear an A string that wasnt zingy in some way. They just ring differently to my ears than any other string on the mandolin.


I find that the wound A on a set of FT74s sounds less "zingy" than with any other string I've used. YMMV.

Ditto the Thomastik wound As (both mandola and mandolin). I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone makes plain steel A strings (other than because it's cheap). They don't for violins or violas, so why mandos? Sigh, because they can, I guess... :confused:

bratsche

[foldedpath]

Harry Partch's 43-note just intonation system FTW. :cool:

Oh, man... that brings back memories. At one time I had his "Delusion Of The Fury - A Ritual Of Dream And Delusion" boxed set of 3 LP's and a booklet with photos of his weird acoustic instruments. Worth a look and a listen if you can find it somewhere.

To be honest, I was always more interested in the mechanics and the visuals of what he was doing. Those instrument ideas were just fascinating to look at, and think about.

As for the actual music, well... there's a reason I gravitated to Rock, then Blues, then weird fingerstyle guitar, then the irish/Scottish rabbit hole I'm falling down now. In the end, I like hearing great melodies that are at least somewhat in sync with my cultural conditioning.
:)

[Pasha Alden]

Well I fear here in SA it is a limited choice for mandolin strings. So I would not participate sensibly in this discussion with a small range for comparisons. Good to hear what is better to buy. When I purchase my mandola I will be sure to order the better strings for both mandolin/mandola so that I have a fine stock of them.

[Pasha Alden]

I am not voting against any of the two, but must say I use my ear and follow your muso friend's lead. It works just fine. Don't know enough about electronic tuners to compare.

[Bertram Henze]

In an Irish session or band, a fiddler might drift from fingering in equal temperament to follow a piper or flute player's diatonic pitch, and the guitar player or mandolin player at the session will be the odd ones out. The majority rules, usually.

Flute and pipe players can often make minor adjustments themselves. Even the guitar player can choose what partial chords to use to evade the worst collisions.
It's the box player who won't be moved an inch. :cool:

[jshane]

Using an electric tuner I think it's useful to tune to the loudest (early part of the note) and let it go slightly flat as it quietly decays.

This is what I do, too. It is a very obvious phenomenon on a Peterson tuner. I find that the tone that is registered on my brain is the attack-tone. My son was tuning to the decay-tone, and he has found that it is much less consistent. He now tunes to the attack tone, and our sound is better when we play together.

[Perry]

The accuracy of the Peterson tuner is far better then the others. It will allow you to get your mandolin properly in tune to be out of tune with fiddle players. ;) The peterson at least helps get your pairs more in tune with each other.

They are too expensive though to have one in every case. Those with great ears can get by with the cheaper ones and then tweak manually. I need all the help I can get.

I love the guitar sweetened tunings on the Peterson but since I switch around I usually keep it on equal temperament.

[BradKlein]

The Slate article that Jim shared in post #13 is really nicely done! Thanks, Jim.

[John Ritchhart]

Great article.

[Chris W.]

Ditto the Thomastik wound As (both mandola and mandolin). I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone makes plain steel A strings (other than because it's cheap). They don't for violins or violas, so why mandos? Sigh, because they can, I guess... :confused:

bratsche

FWIW, at Mike Marshall's Online School, I was watching a student video and the student asked why his A string gave him so much trouble. Mike stated that he had asked that question to a prominent string maker and they claimed the problem was due to the A string having the largest core of all the strings. The wound strings most likely have a core close to the E. Maybe .010 or .011, while those A strings are in the .015 range. Something about the physics of the vibration, but I really don't know why.

After reading this thread, I think I'll play some slide guitar today. Microtones!!! :cool:

[jim33]

This thread has been educational for me, particularly the practical methods used for dealing with the issue. Thanks all.

[Patrick Hull]

This thread has been educational for me, particularly the practical methods used for dealing with the issue. Thanks all.

I also have found this thread to be helpful. My son, who is a much better musician than I can always use the tuner, then tweak a bit and everything just sounds better. Which reminds me that I saw Gillian Welch last week and she said basically this, with tongue in cheek: "It doesn't have to be in tune, it just has to sound good to you (the player)."

So, I've decided to adopt that approach. :)

[jim33]

Could it be that those that are finishing by ear are actually tuning to fifths because that IS what sounds best.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Could it be that those that are finishing by ear are actually tuning to fifths because that IS what sounds best.

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, the 'finishing' that I do by ear is only to synch up the strings in each course.
Thank you for posting that 'slates' link. This whole thread has been very interesting but that article was the highlight for me.

[Matt DeBlass]

I have known a few bowed string players who claim to have a more developed sense of pitch and strong opinions about the proper way to tune, who then spend the entire time playing noticably out of tune, so always take things with a grain of salt unless you know them well enough to hold their opinion in high regard.

I sometimes tune by fifths, or use the seventh fret harmonic against the 12th fret harmonic, but in most real-world performance situations, electronic tuners get me "close enough for folk," (I actually like those tiny little Planet Waves/D'Addario clip ons). Also, there's something to be said for the "try not to think to hard about it and just get on with things" approach described in the Slate article (which is excellent, by the way, thanks for posting that!)

[jim33]

I have known a few bowed string players who claim to have a more developed sense of pitch and strong opinions about the proper way to tune, who then spend the entire time playing noticably out of tune, so always take things with a grain of salt unless you know them well enough to hold their opinion in high regard.

I sometimes tune by fifths, or use the seventh fret harmonic against the 12th fret harmonic, but in most real-world performance situations, electronic tuners get me "close enough for folk," (I actually like those tiny little Planet Waves/D'Addario clip ons). Also, there's something to be said for the "try not to think to hard about it and just get on with things" approach described in the Slate article (which is excellent, by the way, thanks for posting that!)

That is a pretty good description of my technique including the little tuner. I sync them as I go though.

[Polecat]

fourth-I have tuned by ear (and using a tuning fork pre electronic tuners) for years. I cannot tell you why, but there are times I dial in and there are others I am not as precise or even able-don't know if its some sort of ear fatigue from long sessions, or lack of sleep or instruments around me, or, my mando is settling and changing as I play-sort of a moving target tuning-wise-but

suffice it to say electronic tuners are superb for purposes of getting close to in tune, quickly, even if you cannot hear clearly, and 'close enough' to continue when performing-they can be a compass in the dark


I can get close to pitch without reference on guitar and mando, by ear, and string tension, and being familiar with how my instrument is responding to whatever pitch I have guessed. (not a substitution for a reference note-but you can learn to come close)

Thank you for posting that, it's good to know that its not just me that has this problem. Not being cursed by perfect pitch, but having "learned" relative pitch (I can recognize the pitch of a note or sing a particular pitch without a reference tone), I too can tune my instrument roughly right without a reference, though I always check against a pitchfork (love that word!) or a clip-on snark. There are days, though, where I despair over the intonation however long I spend tuning - sometimes it's old strings, sometimes just me.

Nobody else has mentioned it, so I'll bring up a point I have found useful when using a digital tuner - if I pluck the strings in the usual way on the "sweet spot" its a lot harder to get the mandolin in tune than if I pluck them exactly in the middle, over the 12th fret. Why precisely this should be I'm not sure, but my theory is that hitting the string in the middle produces a tone where the overtones are more muted compared to the fundamental, which "confuses" the clip-on tuner less, and it recognizes the note it's meant to hear better than if the string is plucked at a different point - if I pluck the string very near the bridge, the tuner takes much longer to settle down. Whether my theory is correct or not I can't say, but I have found that this practice makes a clip-on tuner much easier to use.

[Bertram Henze]

if I pluck the strings in the usual way on the "sweet spot" its a lot harder to get the mandolin in tune than if I pluck them exactly in the middle, over the 12th fret. Why precisely this should be I'm not sure, but my theory is that hitting the string in the middle produces a tone where the overtones are more muted compared to the fundamental, which "confuses" the clip-on tuner less

Plausible explanation - I'll try that.

[BradKlein]

Some electronic tuners do better if the string is plucked with a plectrum, I find, and some favor a finger. My ear is agnostic on that point.

[FLATROCK HILL]

if I pluck the strings in the usual way on the "sweet spot" its a lot harder to get the mandolin in tune than if I pluck them exactly in the middle, over the 12th fret. Why precisely this should be I'm not sure, but my theory is that hitting the string in the middle produces a tone where the overtones are more muted compared to the fundamental, which "confuses" the clip-on tuner less, and it recognizes the note it's meant to hear better than if the string is plucked at a different point - if I pluck the string very near the bridge, the tuner takes much longer to settle down. Whether my theory is correct or not I can't say, but I have found that this practice makes a clip-on tuner much easier to use.

I don't even have a guess as to why that works with the electronic tuner.
I do know that your technique of plucking the string(s) at the 12th fret, or mid-string is the best way (for me and my ear) to hear the 'beat frequency'.

[foldedpath]

FYI, the Peterson virtual strobe tuner manual advises brushing the string with the side of your thumb or finger, instead of using a pick. The idea is to increase the fundamental and reduce upper harmonics. It probably also minimizes the "sharp initial attack followed by lower sustained pitch" effect.

I don't know how well that works on other tuners. It would depend on whether they're sensitive enough to pick up the softer attack on the note.

[Andy Hatfield]

From my teacher, the GREAT Bob Applegate, the human ear can hear 4 cents. The electronic tuners have a accuracy of +/- 3 cents, so they don't drive you crazy jumping back and forth, never turning green. If one string is + 3 cents, the tuner tells you it's in tune. If the other string is -3 cents the tuners tell you it's in tune. Those strings are now 6 cents away, and your ear will tell you the truth.

Jack

[jim33]

Here is an example of several types of instruments. The mandolin sounds good with them to my ear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogr9Y7OQgSg

[Bertram Henze]

Here is an example of several types of instruments. The mandolin sounds good with them to my ear

The mandolin is being backed up by several other equal-temperament instruments here: the piano, the harp, the electric bass. The violins and cello can only follow.

[pit lenz]

Thank you guys for this highly educating thread!

I enjoyed Jan Swafford`s excellent article
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/music_box/2010/04/the_wolf_at_our_heels.html
but wasn`t able to get to the embedded sound samples. Can you guys click them or are those links dead now (the article dates april 2010) ?

...Being a pedal steel payer (one of the lucky fretless guys), my Peterson Stomp with a custom-sweetened tuning for my Universal-12 serves me very well….

[Shanahan]

The mandolin is being backed up by several other equal-temperament instruments here: the piano, the harp, the electric bass. The violins and cello can only follow.

The Goat Rodeo Sessions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7EcT5YzKhQ) might be a better example.

[mandocaster]

I think a major factor in intonation problems in the first position is the nut. Many instruments have the strings too high from the first fret. A strings, in particular because of their larger diameter are particularly apt to sound sharp on the first five frets or so. Small differences in the depth of the grooves can cause a pair of strings to sound off. There is no perfection here, but a carefully cut nut will make a big difference.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I have a tuning fork which i've used for tuning my banjo for over 40 years,well before elec.tuners were even though of. It's the G of a banjo's 3rd string ( 'G' below middle 'C' i think). I've checked the response of my Intelli & Snark tuners using the tuning fork,& they're both absolutely perfect,totally spot on with no deviation at all. So,from that i conclude that both tuner brands are capable of picking up a 'correct' pitch. I'd need a few more tuning forks of different pitches to check them out thoroughly,but i'm sure that somebody on here has access to a set of tuning forks with which they could check the response of a tuner to the G,D,A & E of a mandolin's tuning. However,that's not the whole story is it ?. Tuning each string pair perfectly is easy enough. But after doing so,if we check each string pair against the others,we find tiny discrepancies across the fingerboard G-D/ D-A etc. On both my mandolins,the error is very tiny indeed until i check the E's against the A strings,then i find i need to raise the E's by a tiny fraction to bring them in tune with the A strings. I mentioned in another thread on here,something i was told many years ago by a piano tuner,that if you tuned a piano 'perfectly' to a set of tuning forks,then it wouldn't sound right. A piano has to be tuned 'within itself' to sound right :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning . I have to assume that this is the case for 'lesser instruments' as well. The phrase 'perfectly aligned' in the Wiki article says it all,
Ivan

[dhbailey]

It's also important to remember that such intonation differences don't bother all excellent string players -- some simply deal with it since nothing else can be done about the difference between fretted instruments and non-fretted instruments other than to have the non-fretted instruments play in tune with the fretted instruments.

Great groups like the DePue Brothers, where the fiddlers hold positions in major classical orchestras as well as playing in their own bluegrass band manage to perform wonderfully together, as does Mark O'Connor, and they still appear to be very happy playing with fretted instruments.

[mandocaster]

Not to sound like a broken record... Theoretically every time string gauges are changed the bridge placement should be checked. If the bridge is out of place or the nut is too high the instrument will never play in tune.

[Polecat]

I heard about Damian Helliwell's project, Metta, today, and downloaded the album from his website. Listening to it put me in mind of this thread. From the website:
This album was recorded over seven days on the Isle of Eigg, in the relaxing atmosphere of Damian’s beautiful newly built straw bale studio. It was recorded entirely live without overdubs to capture the true natural energy of the music. The album was also recorded in A= 432hz Pythagorean tuning of perfect fifths as opposed to the standard A=440 hz equal temperament tuning used today. The produces a much lusher resonant sound utilizing the full harmonic spectrum of overtones and at the quantum level is believed to have a more powerful vibrational energy to it. .
Listening to it, I must admit that I don't hear a very great difference to "just" intonation, and would be interested in the reaction of other Cafe members. If you don't want to download the full album, there is a 4 track EP available for free from Noisetrade (http://noisetrade.com/damianhelliwell). Given that I regard myself as pretty fenicketty when it comes to tuning/intonation, listening to the music came as something of a surprise, and, as I say, I would very much like to know how others react to these recordings. The "live vibe" seems to me to be very much in evidence, by the (off topic) way.

[DGW1945]

Just to "muddy" the water, my daughter (Doctorate in Clarinet Performance) , suggeated that I clip my Intellitouch, Korg,and Snark eTuners to my headstock, turn them all on, and "Try" to tune my guitar or mandolin. Evidently the age of the tuner, the freshness of the battery, and God only knows what else can cause them to all sound just a little off from each other. I tried it once and still am not completely over it. She suggested that I use a tuning fork, which may slightly vary with temperature and other factors.

[SincereCorgi]

The album was also recorded in A= 432hz Pythagorean tuning of perfect fifths as opposed to the standard A=440 hz equal temperament tuning used today. The produces a much lusher resonant sound utilizing the full harmonic spectrum of overtones and at the quantum level is believed to have a more powerful vibrational energy to it. .
Listening to it, I must admit that I don't hear a very great difference to "just" intonation, and would be interested in the reaction of other Cafe members. If you don't want to download the full album, there is a 4 track EP available for free from Noisetrade (http://noisetrade.com/damianhelliwell).

Is that music in the video from the album? I don't see how he can be playing an instrument without a bizarre fretboard, e.g.

119969

and still claim to be in a mathematically pure tuning.

It just reminds me of a jam with an irritating woman who claimed that people ought to play old time music for small children because the 'purer intervals make them less likely to develop into violent people'... all the while playing her equal-tempered mandolin and tuning it to A440.

[Jack Roberts]

My Bass player has "perfect pitch", but none of the rest of us do. I have a peculiar anomaly where the same pitch generated by a instrument or a pitch generator sound like two different pitches to my left and right ear. It's not a problem as I tune with my right ear. But there is some wisdom to tuning mandolins by listening for the fifths rather than using a tuning machine. It's pretty easy, as you just sing "Twin-kle Twin-kle" (G-G D-D), rinse and repeat.

The results using the twinkle twinkle method are generally as good as using a tuner. I let my bass player tell me when my G strings are in tune as that is easier than arguing with him! Our guitar players use tuners, but I can tune 8 strings faster than they can tune 6.

[ombudsman]

I heard about Damian Helliwell's project, Metta, today, and downloaded the album from his website. Listening to it put me in mind of this thread. From the website:
This album was recorded over seven days on the Isle of Eigg, in the relaxing atmosphere of Damian’s beautiful newly built straw bale studio. It was recorded entirely live without overdubs to capture the true natural energy of the music. The album was also recorded in A= 432hz Pythagorean tuning of perfect fifths as opposed to the standard A=440 hz equal temperament tuning used today. The produces a much lusher resonant sound utilizing the full harmonic spectrum of overtones and at the quantum level is believed to have a more powerful vibrational energy to it. .
Listening to it, I must admit that I don't hear a very great difference to "just" intonation, and would be interested in the reaction of other Cafe members.

Putting on my stickler/curmudgeon hat for a minute... just intonation means the music (the whole piece, or at least each section) is made entirely from pitches that are in the harmonic series of a single fundamental tone (typically with octave transpositions allowed and favoring lower harmonics).

Doing that on a fretted instrument requires making tradeoffs such as favoring one or a few fundamentals and selections of the (infinite) possible harmonics, or tuning each open string to a desirable fundamental and avoiding string crossing.

That's not what this is; the description is of tuning the open strings to a lower reference standard and using harmonic fifths. All tuning systems involve tradeoffs; one of the ones that is operative here is asymmetry; you no longer have consistent intervals for each key. This is less of an issue for simpler music that tends to revolve around a few keys (such as those favoring open strings); still, some keys and notes in those keys will sound worse than others. It's not possible to have harmonic fifths every time you play a fifth interval in any key unless you get rid of the frets.

Unfortunately there is a tradition of lots of new age psychobabble being associated with the topic of tunings in music, such as the idea that by tuning to a lower reference note you will have an objectively better sound. (If that worked, we could just transpose every song down a half step every time we play it; they would just get better and better until we couldn't hear them anymore.)

And, what music doesn't use the "full harmonic spectrum of overtones" ?

In actual just intonation there is more sympathetic vibration in acoustic instruments in every note they play, because strings and resonant instrument bodies and rooms are more efficiently excited by nearby energy at harmonically related pitches. It's not a dramatic difference and not necessarily one that most people would notice, but it's pretty cool when it's done on a grand piano. If your only harmonic relationships are in the open string tuning of a small stringed instrument, we're talking about a very slight volume difference when you play multiple open strings at the same time, which disappears as soon as you move to fretted notes.

[mandroid]

the Piano in the room gets to be the one I Tune to .. Funky Bar Room Piano, its taking an average ..

they play the same note is several Octaves , and I use something common to all of them .

Then, 'close enough' works. :whistling:

[mrmando]

If there are frets on your instrument, you're making some kind of tuning compromise. If it's purity you want, play the musical saw.

[mrmando]

It just reminds me of a jam with an irritating woman who claimed that people ought to play old time music for small children because the 'purer intervals make them less likely to develop into violent people'... all the while playing her equal-tempered mandolin and tuning it to A440.
Yeah, everybody Pretty Polly knows old-time music Knoxville Girl is so Down in the Willow Garden non-violent...

[Polecat]

What interested (and surprised) me is that in spite of all I have read on different tuning systems, listening to the music I posted a link to earlier, it didn't sound noticably different from "normal" western music (my use of "just intonation" before was incorrect, I meant "equal tempered"). I was wondering if I am the only one who doesn't think there is much difference (with reference to the recordings, not theoretically).

[EdHanrahan]

... I was wondering if I am the only one who doesn't think there is much difference ...
The only one?? Most folks who listen with ears don't think there's much difference, or equal temperament would never have been accepted!

[Bertram Henze]

Is that music in the video from the album? I don't see how he can be playing an instrument without a bizarre fretboard, e.g.

119969

and still claim to be in a mathematically pure tuning.

It just reminds me of a jam with an irritating woman who claimed that people ought to play old time music for small children because the 'purer intervals make them less likely to develop into violent people'... all the while playing her equal-tempered mandolin and tuning it to A440.

Yep. Two observations:
- the music sounds just like normal modern Irish/Scottish to me (Lunasa & Co), beautiful but nothing out of the ordinary, tonally.
- retreating to a small Hebridean island for the recordings appears to be cool and is probably healthy for the musicians' mindset, but enhancement with an esoteric lifestyle and esoteric argumentation is not what this music genre originally had or even needed - it works everywhere - concert hall, pub session, disused bus station - and is robust enough to be just played and do its magic.

[foldedpath]

The only one?? Most folks who listen with ears don't think there's much difference, or equal temperament would never have been accepted!

True, although I think it's mainly due to acculturation, because there were some objections when it was first proposed. At this point in modern Western culture, equal temperament is the music that surrounds us in the commercialized space.

You can get away from 12TET a bit in some folk music, like the way some instruments (but not mandolins!) play games with the space between a C and a C# in Irish traditional music. Although as I understand it, that's more of an idiosyncrasy of certain diatonic instruments, and not a full "system" like Just intonation. Generally speaking, it takes effort and exposure to appreciate anything much different than 12TET when you've been raised on it. Our ears have been well bent, by now.

I listened to the shorter clips and didn't hear anything out of the ordinary in the tuning. I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that he's using a mandolin with custom fretwork for playing in one key, or a key and related mode. The piano could be tuned similarly, and the fiddler would adapt, as they do anyway. That might work, but would be awfully limiting when moving outside that key. And IIRC, the tune samples were in different keys.

Does anyone know if he has written a blog post or been interviewed about his setup?