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sachmo63
Apr-14-2014, 8:13am
Hoping im not crazy but i played a bunch of great mandolins this week and have an observation.

So these mandolins i played (all F style) had that tubby thump that im assuming people like. It certainly seemed that most folks all thought they sounded great, me included however (to my crazy part) when i played my own mandolin while its just as loud its not tubby but what i noticed is that its notes were quicker to leave the instrument than he other mandolins.

Its hard for me to explain but the tubby thumpy mandolins had notes that seem just a little slower to leave the instrument than my instrument which btw is more midrange sounding than tubby sounding but my notes are much quicker to leave the instrument.

Is me crazy? Now let me say i play in the Monroe style which I THINK is more a mid range sound but are these other mandolins less suited for m style of playing.

JeffD
Apr-14-2014, 8:40am
I have noticed something like this, I don't believe its actually happening that way, but I know what you mean, it kind of can sound that way. I first noticed it when I played my first decent F hole mandolin. Compared to oval holes with which I had experience up to that point, to my ears it did seem like the sound "jumped out faster" from the f hole instruments.

Jim Garber
Apr-14-2014, 8:53am
Years ago I only played oval hole vintage Gibsons in my old time bands. At one point I bought my 83 Flatiron A5-2 and started using that. I think there is a big difference both in the different bracing and the position of the soundholes. I found that with the A5-2 it was much easier for me to hear myself in a band situtation even without monitors. That was my main band mandolin from then on -- a bluegrassy sounding mandolin in an old time band. Works for me.

EdHanrahan
Apr-14-2014, 9:29am
Some part of the difference may have to do with where you're listening from. What the player hears from 2 feet above the instrument can be different from what the audience hears from 10 to 20 feet in front of it.

This is where ff-holes are often credited with projecting outward, away from the players ears, more than round holes do but, in my experience, even similar-format instruments can do the same thing. That's why some give the advise to have a friend play your prospective instrument while you listen from out in front of it. Or play it in front of a highly-reflective wall, Robert Johnson-style.

OldSausage
Apr-14-2014, 9:48am
Hoping im not crazy but i played a bunch of great mandolins this week and have an observation.

So these mandolins i played (all F style) had that tubby thump that im assuming people like. It certainly seemed that most folks all thought they sounded great, me included however (to my crazy part) when i played my own mandolin while its just as loud its not tubby but what i noticed is that its notes were quicker to leave the instrument than he other mandolins.

Its hard for me to explain but the tubby thumpy mandolins had notes that seem just a little slower to leave the instrument than my instrument which btw is more midrange sounding than tubby sounding but my notes are much quicker to leave the instrument.

Is me crazy? Now let me say i play in the Monroe style which I THINK is more a mid range sound but are these other mandolins less suited for m style of playing.

I find it hard to unpack what you're saying, but it seems to me that when you say "the notes are quicker to leave the instrument", it can mean one of two things. It can't mean that after you've played a note, the sound just lounges around by the f holes, smokes a cigarette or two, checks its watch and says to itself, "oh, look at the time, I'd best be off". No. The possibilities I can think of are:

1. These other mandolins have a slower attack, sometimes called response, meaning that after you pluck a string, it takes slightly longer for the sound of that pluck to reach maximum amplitude, and you're sensitive to this.

2. You have some hearing loss in the lower range, and while the sound is perfectly loud as soon as the string is plucked, you are not hearing the bassier overtones that are generated nearer to the pluck time, giving the impression that the sound doesn't really speak until after you've struck the string.

People don't usually think of mandolins with F holes as having a "tubby" sound. That epithet or soubriquet is usually reserved for oval hole mandolins. But you probably just mean they produced more volume in the lower frequencies.

foldedpath
Apr-14-2014, 9:56am
Since you describe the other mandolins you tried as sounding "tubby," my guess is that you're just responding to the high frequency content of your mandolin, probably the upper harmonics.

The human ear is very sensitive in the range of around 1k to 5k (sources I've seen differ on the exact number), which is critical for recognition of speech. No surprise that our hearing is most sensitive around that area. If your mandolin has more harmonic content up there than the ones you tried, or if it's just voiced more on the treble side to begin with, then you might be hearing more of the transient attack of the pick. More transient attack could be interpreted as sounding "faster," even though it obviously isn't related to the speed the sound leaves the instrument. That's my guess, anyway.

Atlanta Mando Mike
Apr-14-2014, 10:16am
I think treble and high mid frequencies tend to have this fast effect vs lower frequencies have a slower effect. I would also put the adjectives hard with the higher frequencies and soft with the lower frequencies as well. Nothing scientific here, just what I seem to hear and feel. Does the ear take longer to pick up on these frequencies maybe? Maybe its the difference between a single wavelength being processed from peak to trough. Who knows.

Wayne Stuvick
Apr-14-2014, 11:16am
There has to be a scientific explanation for what you are hearing. The speed of sound varies depending upon the type of gas (air, pure oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc.) through which the sound passes. It also varies depending on the temperature of the air through which the sound moves. At sea level, with a temperature of 59 degrees Fahrenheit the speed of sound is 761.2 mph. Gas molecules move more slowly at colder temperatures, which slow the speed of sound. Sound moves faster through warmer air, therefore, the speed of sound decreases at colder temperatures. Altitude is another factor that enters this equation. And finally, the medium in which a sound wave is travelling does not always respond adiabatically, and as a result the speed of sound can vary with frequency.

So, the scientific explanation may be that one mandolin was colder than the other, you were standing while playing one and sitting while playing the other, you didn’t play the same notes or chords and, finally, your dog may have passed gas while playing one of them. Of course, there is also the perplexing question of what does the speed of sound have to do with any of this? :whistling:

foldedpath
Apr-14-2014, 11:59am
There has to be a scientific explanation for what you are hearing. The speed of sound varies depending upon the type of gas (air, pure oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc.) through which the sound passes.

Aha! I think we've solved it. I've been learning Irish flute, and I've heard the advice that one must be careful not to drink too much Guinness at a session, because burping into the flute will change the pitch, due to the CO2 in the flute's resonant air column.

Clearly, the OP was drinking either beer or a carbonated beverage when making these tests, and thus altering the local speed of sound via burping.
:grin:

chasray
Apr-14-2014, 1:09pm
Once again, I have learned something by visiting the mandolincafe website!
Guinness - burp - co2 - pitch change. It's a good day.

John Flynn
Apr-14-2014, 6:39pm
1. These other mandolins have a slower attack, sometimes called response, meaning that after you pluck a string, it takes slightly longer for the sound of that pluck to reach maximum amplitude, and you're sensitive to this.

Below is an illustration of "attack" as it applies to acoustic instruments:

DataNick
Apr-14-2014, 6:40pm
Below is an illustration of "attack" as it applies to acoustic instruments:

One of my fa-vor-ites!...El Kabong!!!!

John Flynn
Apr-14-2014, 6:49pm
Seriously, though, this thread caused me to do some online reading. There is a concept in this area of study called an ASDR envelope, standing for: Attack - Sustain - Decay - Release. It would be interesting to learn more about how different mandolins score on this. Dr. Cohen might have some insight on this.

sachmo63
Apr-14-2014, 8:25pm
Very interesting, I never considered it was ME.....however I guess it's a possibility.

My reasoning is that by tubby I was meaning had ummmmm tone, these were all really nice instruments. Mine however May be lacking somewhat in tone buts it's loud and sorta like a kick in the teeth which I'm guessing I'm gravitating toward and may work better for the style of mandolin I'm playing.

Pete Martin
Apr-15-2014, 12:13am
Find an instrument that pleases your ear and enjoy playing it. :mandosmiley:

dang
Apr-15-2014, 2:04am
So these mandolins i played (all F style) had that tubby thump that im assuming people like.

Still not clear to me, all F style mandolins - any difference in the sound holes (oval vs f)?


Its hard for me to explain but the tubby thumpy mandolins had notes that seem just a little slower to leave the instrument than my instrument which btw is more midrange sounding than tubby sounding but my notes are much quicker to leave the instrument.

I tried asking other people about what I am hearing when I play, specifically feeling the sound was "late" - I was comparing F hole to Oval hole and I too thought I was crazy... (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?90424-Oval-Hole-Sound-Issues-(in-my-head-))
Trust your ears. Go with what you like, you will adapt some to the instrument over time.


Is me crazy?

"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Ivan Kelsall
Apr-15-2014, 3:59am
The ''speed of sound is the speed of sound'', regardless of tubby thump or not. I think that what you were hearing is the difference in tones of the mandolins more than the 'speed' of the tone. A mandolin which errs more on the treble side of tonality ,will sound 'quicker' although physics tells us that it can't be so. It's simply the response of our ears to the tone. I also think that what you're referring to as 'tubby',might be what others call 'woody',but i understand your point perfectly & i tend to agree. A friend of mine has a Paganoni mandolin that he bought from Doyle Lawson back in 1988. I have to say that he doesn't look after it as well as he might,but every time i hear that mandolin,it sounds 'slow',mainly i think because the strings are shot & the treble response has died. That's my take on what you're saying,
Ivan;)

Bertram Henze
Apr-15-2014, 3:59am
I've heard the advice that one must be careful not to drink too much Guinness at a session, because burping into the flute will change the pitch, due to the CO2 in the flute's resonant air column.

You are aware that the gas in Guinness is nitrogen, not CO2? That's the secret behind the creamy foam.
For a good effect, you might want to inhale helium, then play the flute.

But I'll throw in another guess at what "notes leaving the instrument" might mean: sustain? The note is in the instrument as long as you can hear it, so short sustain means you can't hear the note not as long, i.e. it leaves the instrument earlier? :confused:

Tobin
Apr-15-2014, 8:43am
I've had similar observations to the OP when test-driving mandolins. What seems to be a faster sound production from an instrument is a bit of an aural trick, and it's hard to describe. The term I usually use for it is responsiveness. Some mandolins just seem to be more responsive than others, requiring a lighter touch to get volume, with lots of overtones and harmonics and such. They seem to behave like a racehorse surging at the gate. They want to make noise. While others make you put more effort into them, and will give you more of a dull sound (though not in a bad way; "woody" applies here).

I kind of think of it like touching the gas pedal of a Ferrari (or whatever luxury sports car floats your boat). That quick and effortless motion has a lot of power behind it. Whereas other less responsive mandolins are more like stepping on the accelerator of a Ford F350 dually. Lots of power there too, but just not as quick or light to the touch. Perhaps it's not a perfect analogy, but that's what it feels like to me when sampling the differences.

Obviously, the speed of sound production in a mandolin is the same across all types, as it's a function of things a builder doesn't control. But the thickness of the top, the bracing, the bridge fitment, the action height, and other factors do play a large role in how it sounds, the ease of getting volume out of it, and the level of sustain/decay. Our brains may interpret it as being a faster tone production, but I think it has more to do with volume and tone differences compared to the level of user input.

Pete Jenner
Apr-15-2014, 9:07am
Now I've heard everything - albeit a bit slower than normal.

I used to know a fellow called Tony who did a lot of speed...

Steve Ostrander
Apr-15-2014, 9:11am
I associate a tubby sound with oval hole mandolins, but not f-holes. Thumpy could mean be associated with a good chop, I guess. But if you want to hear tubby, play an old Gibson A.

OldSausage
Apr-15-2014, 9:44am
I think if you want to hear Tubby, you should listen to this:

otwkrRLRkXQ

Pete Jenner
Apr-15-2014, 10:06am
Can't hear a thing ...or is that the point?

JeffD
Apr-15-2014, 10:19am
The possibilities I can think of are:

1. These other mandolins have a slower attack, sometimes called response, meaning that after you pluck a string, it takes slightly longer for the sound of that pluck to reach maximum amplitude, and you're sensitive to this.

2. You have some hearing loss in the lower range, and while the sound is perfectly loud as soon as the string is plucked, you are not hearing the bassier overtones that are generated nearer to the pluck time, giving the impression that the sound doesn't really speak until after you've struck the string..

I think you nailed it actually.

Pete Jenner
Apr-15-2014, 10:40am
Here you go Mr Mold sir.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otwkrRLRkXQ

foldedpath
Apr-15-2014, 1:07pm
You are aware that the gas in Guinness is nitrogen, not CO2? That's the secret behind the creamy foam.
For a good effect, you might want to inhale helium, then play the flute.

Untrue! Guinness is beer, and like all beer it contains CO2 as a natural result of the fermentation process. At the point of consumption, and through either the draught tap or a plastic "widget" in the canned version, an "initiation" process adds a 25% CO2/75% Nitrogen blend to the mix, which reduces the size of the bubbles so you get that creamy foam. But the CO2 is already in the beer.

I'm not sure what the final ratio of imbibed gases are, and there are some losses due to foam wiped off my mustache. But I'll bet the final CO2 content is much higher than the N content. I am willing to do extensive personal testing to estimate the ratio...
:)

And to get this back on track, I still think it's the ear's sensitivity to higher frequencies leading to a perception of "faster" transient attack on the strings, that explains what the OP is hearing.

Tobin
Apr-15-2014, 1:12pm
I'm not sure what the final ratio of imbibed gases are, and there are some losses due to foam wiped off my mustache.

You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to reach up with your lower lip and suck the foam off your mustache. Didn't they teach you this in mustache school?

foldedpath
Apr-15-2014, 7:48pm
My family couldn't afford to send me to mustache school, and growing up in South Florida I was only exposed to Piña coladas. Clearly, I have much to learn.

Bertram Henze
Apr-16-2014, 3:02am
I'm not sure what the final ratio of imbibed gases are, and there are some losses due to foam wiped off my mustache. But I'll bet the final CO2 content is much higher than the N content. I am willing to do extensive personal testing to estimate the ratio...
:)

Since CO2 is what lungs produce in the breathing process, I'd always expect the CO2 content in exhaled air to be quite high, no matter what the imbibation (that a word?) was.

Stephen Perry
Apr-16-2014, 7:20am
ASDR what I really notice a great deal in doing various things I do. Different desires in different instruments and from person to person. Also through time. Very fast attack - instant powerful response - better players like - beginners not so much. Too much sustain, even when string stops and instrument keeps going, but makes for nice glow. Too slow decay also.

So beginner likes slow A because covers up minor errors perhaps. Strong sustain and long decay make for mellow feel. Useful in some music, not so much in other music.

More advanced player wants click n go fast attack, sufficient sustain, clear decay and for sound to stop when it stops.

In violins, beginner chooses warm, rich sounding instrument against advice. Comes back in two years with muddy, tubby instrument that won't respond well enough. Same instrument, player is different.

I really listen to the attack and the clarity in the sustain. This is particularly interesting in pianos. Plenty of writing on that point. The rise of sound as the impulse propagates and blossoms proves highly distinctive. Controlled, even, quick enough response throughout the keyboard plus a suitably clear and focused spectrum really makes for nice. Preference comes in. I like piano with a quick and eager growl, that dies fairly quickly when the string is damped.

Same features apply to mandolins and violins. Not so much I think to winds, where the air is the air, unless beer polluted.