For those who have removed a top board for repair..........

[Bernie Daniel]

Here is a video that is certainly interesting (and also funny) IMO.

But my question about it is directed to the top plate removal that starts at 4:13 and ends at 5:39. Now Rene Morel is considered a genius in world of vintage stringed instrument repair of course -- so this is a high level of workmanship on display.

Is this the kind of "resistance" one might encounter in removing the top or back of a mandocello?

Or is it as I suspect -- namely mandolin family instruments much more difficult to open up because of the kerfing and perhaps the neck and tail blocks?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDGphZaQoSw

[sunburst]

Mandolin family instruments are, for the most part, modeled after factory instruments. They are generally glued very securely, including top and back joints. There is no overhang of the top and back plates.
Violin family instruments are modeled after hand made instruments. Top (and perhaps back) joints are commonly glued with glue of less strength than joints intended to be permanent, the plates overhang the rim so there is easy access to the joint with a blade, no binding, small internal linings... In short, it's much easier to remove a plate from a violin family instrument than from a mandolin family instruments, largely by design.

[Pete Jenner]

Great video Bernie. That bloke seemed to open up the cello effortlessly. I look forward to reading responses to your question from the experts.

[Ron McMillan]

This is absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing it.

[fscotte]

I've taken tops off mandolins in the white. Sometimes they pop right off, other times they take some rim with it.

[Frank Ford]

I spoke to a violin repairer locally a few years ago and he said they had an informal "contest" in their shop, timing how long it took to remove a violin top. At that point the record was eleven seconds.

There is no comparison taking apart fiddles vs. fretted instruments. With the overhanging top and back, it's super easy to get a knife in there, no problem with scarring finish, and virtually no issue realigning them to put things back together. In short, you could say they were designed to come apart. Thus, interior repairs are not a matter of making ships in bottles.

[multidon]

I know I have seen mandolins with a violin style overhang. I don't recall which makers use this technique but I know I have seen it. The ones with overhang : do the makers use thin violin stye linings as well? I do think that is part of why violin tops come off so easily. Kerfing has so much more glueing surface. Would a mandolin body truly built violin style with overhang, no bindings just purfling and thin linings be sturdy enough to stand up to the rigors of what is expected from a mandolin? It is also kind of surprising to me that Orville Gibson did to go in this direction since his big innovation was to bring violin style building techniques to the mandolin family.

[Bernie Daniel]

Now here is a guy who took the back off a Gibson L-48 guitar -- this might be getting closer to a mandolin in construction. This job required the binding to be removed first--- or not? But that is what he did. Unusual shop bench! But in the end a nice clean removal. Comments?

The way he handled that knife made me nervous? Just a thought! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE2ckVzY4yA

[David Newton]

Violin top removal is a piece of cake, hide glue is no match for a hot, wet, pallette knife. Often the top pops off with no other effort than slipping the knife under a corner and sliding it along.

The problem with mandolin back or top removal is removing the binding, and all the finish chipping-out that goes along with it.
It is the putting-back that is the problem, with all the finish repair issues.

[Marty Jacobson]

I recently removed the top from a Chinese cello which had been built with something other than hide glue (looked like white AR glue). It was doable, but a nightmare compared to what it should be like.

[testore]

I didn't watch the video but it may be similar to one 60 minutes ran years ago. I knew Rene very well. He was one of the greats in every area of violin repair and adjustment. The video that 60 minutes ran had a microphone that picked up all of the high pitched sounds associated with top removal. Even to my experienced ears it sounded horrible. I thought it was unfortunate that it sounded so destructive. I had several customers come in after that asking about the video. It usually isn't a difficult job.

[Bernie Daniel]

I didn't watch the video but it may be similar to one 60 minutes ran years ago. I knew Rene very well. He was one of the greats in every area of violin repair and adjustment. The video that 60 minutes ran had a microphone that picked up all of the high pitched sounds associated with top removal. Even to my experienced ears it sounded horrible. I thought it was unfortunate that it sounded so destructive. I had several customers come in after that asking about the video. It usually isn't a difficult job.

It must be the same video from the TV show I'd guess. So Mr. Morel has passed on?

I'm going to practice on an old Harmony Monterrey arch top that I have here -- the top board has an full length split right down the center so the back needs to come off anyway.

[testore]

Yes Rene passed away probably 2-3 years ago.

[Austin Clark]

I'm going to practice on an old Harmony Monterrey arch top that I have here -- the top board has an full length split right down the center so the back needs to come off anyway.

Sounds like fun! Keep in mind that those old Harmony arch tops backs are thinner than the binding at the edge. (The binding goes down into the side). The back will probably come off pretty easily once you get the binding off.

[Bernie Daniel]

Sounds like fun! Keep in mind that those old Harmony arch tops backs are thinner than the binding at the edge. (The binding goes down into the side). The back will probably come off pretty easily once you get the binding off.

Thanks great info! :)

I'm hoping to get the binding off intact so I can replace it neatly.

[Pete Jenner]

Good luck Bernie. We expect pictures of course.

[kjbllc]

i always find it interesting that the violin can hold together for decades and be able to be popped off with little or no damage, I don't think it was intentional in the original design but it may have been. with no humidity control and probably poor heat control those instruments must have gone through some real extremes !

[testore]

True to some extent. Repair and especially restoration wasn't really developed until the late 18th century in Milan, at least for the violin family. If something was damaged it was always replaced with a new part. Hide glue makes that an easy possibility. I'm not sure what other glues were in use 500 years ago, casein glues are very difficult to take apart. I'm not sure how old casein glue is.

[Greg Mirken]

Ease of top removal is part of proper violin construction, because it is assumed that the top must come off for most crack repair. The other side of the coin is that I've seen many repairs done [by violin repairers] on guitars with the back removed that could have and should have been done through the soundhole. They often just don't consider that option.

[Michael Lewis]

What you hear in the first video is the granulated dried out hide glue letting go, not wood splintering. Such joints are easy to separate. Given time a violin will eventually fall apart given sufficient changes in humidity.

Separating kerfed linings from top or back plates is usually another matter, and often causes some damage to the linings, which can be replaced easily enough once the plate has been removed. As stated previously, violins were made so they can come apart fairly easily, but most mandolins and guitars are put together more or less permanently, not to be taken apart. We do it anyway when the situation calls for it, it's just more difficult and more work.

[Dobe]

I'm pretty sure I read this at some point : on violin family instruments the top plate has half strength hide glue for this reason : With changes in temp & humidity, it's better to have a seam start to fail (easy fix) than have a crack develop in the top.

[HoGo]

The modern top violinmakers are very careful not to glue the top and back to rim with too strong joints. They use diluted glue of lesser strength so the joint can be pushed apart even without knife, just by pressure of thumbs against the edge. Many of them measured how much to dilute glue to get desired strength on scraps and follow it very carefully. They often have specific ratios of glue to water (and also used type of HHG) for many different parts of violin like fingerboards, ribs to blocks etc. Some of them even size the underside of spruce edges with shellac to lessen adhesion of HHG. All with sight of future repairs. They'd rather see their violin seam go apart on occasion than wood being damaged during disassembly.
Other instruments are typically assembled with full strength glue which are not really easy to disassemble. You will amost certainly do some damage to wood when you pull back from F5 mandolin no matter which glue was used unless you are extremely carefull (meaning removal will take weeks of slow progress).