Standard Keys

[montana]

Is there a standard key for 'Maiden's Prayer' and 'Faded Love'?

[AlanN]

The pickers round these parts do MP in A chord.

[Willie Poole]

Actually any song could be played in any key....I have played songs at jam sessions and I hear, "They don`t do that song in that key"...I ask, "Who is they?, I am not they and this is where I play it" Just about every one I know plays MP in A and FL in D but I believe the Seldom Scene recorded FL in G one time....

[AlanN]

Willie, of course, has a point. Any tune can be done in any key. Wandering around Galax last year, came across some great pickers doing Sailor's Hornpipe in Bb. Not where most would pick it, but hey, it was hot outside, the suds were flowing and it sounded great right there.

But, there are mores. New Camptown Races in any other key but Bb? Nah. Same with the D chord fiddle tunes. Jerusalem Ridge not in Am? Kentucky Mandolin in key other than Gm? Rebecca not in B chord? Don't think so (at least not while Herschel was hanging around...).

"They're writing songs of love, but not for me..."

[ralph johansson]

MP as an instrumental for fiddle(s) is almost always done in A. Bob Wills also recorded a vocal version with horns; instrumental section in Bb, vocal in F. Cf. San Antonio Rose, originally a fiddle tune i D, with a bridge in A. Vocal version: Instrumental section in D
followed by vocal in Ab, then back to D. I like to do FL with the verse in D and the chorus in G. Bob Wills' Kapp version (which was really a bunch of session cats and Wills hollering) had an introduction i F, then modulated to D (via
E7, A7), and G on the chorus. New Camptown Races is in Bb partly because of its brief visits to the relative minor, gm.
Same with Monroe's Cheyenne. Sailor's Hornpipe sits beautifully in Bb; Kenny Baker insisted on that key when Keith brought it to Monroe's band. One tune that really belongs firmly in one key is Brilliancy (in A). Silver Bell by Percy Wenrich is usually done in just one key, G, but I learned it from the Fiddlin' Linvilles who did the verse in D, and the chorus in G.

[sgarrity]

Like Willie said, MP in A and FL in D. And just to elaborate on Alan's wise words.......a song can be played in whatever key the singer is comfortable. Instrumental tunes should be played in their original keys to keep from busting a jam. If it's just you and your friends, then knock yourselves out. I was at a jam once and a banjo player called Pike County Breakdown in G......No Sir! That's not where that tune goes. :grin:

[AlanN]

Now, Shaun, you must know that I was smacked down HARD by Niles and others (with love, of course...) when I loosely suggested that *certain* vocal tunes belong to a specific key (e.g., Down The Road...B chord, boys and girls...). But...I do agree with you that the vocalists may call the road to travel, if the jam allows for that, and within reason.

Many of the classic grass vocal tunes (F&S, Monroe) sit in the higher keys (A, Bb, B) to highlight the tenor pull (always loved that term...) when up there. Yet, On & On (trio vocal throughout) was recorded by Monroe in G chord...go figure.

[sgarrity]

I would side with you on that one Alan. There are songs that I expect to be in certain keys. Walls of Time in C, I'm Going Back to Old Kentucky in A, Dim Lights, Thick Smoke in F, On and On in G, True Life Blues in A. I've played Walls of Time in B on more than one occasion and it works fine. A step or two up or down is what I usually expect. When somebody wants something way off the mark, that's a good time to experiment with a break or grab another beer. I usually pick the latter!

[Timbofood]

Kenny liked fishers hornpipe in F too but, I am still trying to get that "right", Faded Love is a ton of fun in E. Can't speak to maidens prayer.
so Shaun, where do you like Pike County Breakdown (as if I don't have a pretty good idea)?
I think Larry Sparks might do FL in E but, I could be wrong.

[sgarrity]

Pike County......grab an A chord and hold on!

[swampstomper]

I think it depends on the composer (if there is one) for mandolin or fiddle tunes, if the composer was trying to get certain sounds by using open strings / drones. Pike County is a perfect example -- it's an A tune because of how Monroe plays it, it must have those open strings. Similarly BG Stomp would sound weird anywhere but in D, and of course those A/Am where is it actually? tunes like Old Daingerfield and Old Ebenezer Scrooge. You do get different effects by moving a tune to another key. I've worked out Old D. in Gm for example. But I wouldn't expect to be able to use it in a jam.

For vocals, some songs can be done in the original key only by very rare people. Walls of Time is often done in A at jams I frequent, with the same Pete Rowan guitar part, but most singers can't do it in C. Same with No Longer a Sweetheart of Mine, often now in D instead of the original F. Kentucky Waltz is one where the really high singers like Paul Brewster can do it in E (!), Monroe did it first in C and then moved up to D. However I've never heard Prayer Bells of Heaven done anywhere but Bb. Something about the tightness of the banjo between A and B, and the mandolin breaks.

[ralph johansson]

I would side with you on that one Alan. There are songs that I expect to be in certain keys. Walls of Time in C, I'm Going Back to Old Kentucky in A, Dim Lights, Thick Smoke in F, On and On in G, True Life Blues in A. I've played Walls of Time in B on more than one occasion and it works fine. A step or two up or down is what I usually expect. When somebody wants something way off the mark, that's a good time to experiment with a break or grab another beer. I usually pick the latter!


Monroe recorded Going Back in C, as a solo, in 1961. The original recording of True Life is in A, but there's a live or radio recording, with Flatt&Scruggs in the band, in C. In 69 I heard Monroe do it with Mac Wiseman, at Berryville, and it was high, possibly D. And don't forget that the first recording of Blue Moon of Kentucky
was in Bb.

And in the 80's Monroe did it again, in Bb. I believe Del McCourey sang lead. And F&S moved Thick Smoke around a bit, too. I've heard versions in E and G. But it always seemed to me that F was the ideal key for their medium up stuff, like I'm Waiting to Hear you Call me Darling.

[Willie Poole]

As I have posted on here before, many bands played and tuned one step higher than standard in the "old days" to get that high lonesome sound, I guess, so some of the songs that some of you suggested that were done in certain keys were actually not performed in that key...Also some bands just tuned to whatever when they went into the studio unless they had an instrument that had a set tuning like a piano or a horn..UGH.....I guess what I am saying is that a lot of older tunes cannot be said to be played in any certain key....

Willie

[Timbofood]

Well, my banjo player whups it like a rented mule and he has some recording of PCB in B so that's where we've done it for years! That might be exactly what you are referencing Willie!
In the "Olden Days" when not paying with a harmonica player, there was a tendency to tune sharp as the day wore on, I know that has happened to me. Three in the morning at a festival full step sharp....who knew, noticed or cared? Now, tuners have shot that dog.
I know a guy who swears that no two tuners are alike but he plays....alone most of the time. Keeping it clean.
I think he also claimed that metronomes don't work either, same reason.

[ralph johansson]

Pike County......grab an A chord and hold on!

My impression from Monroe's recording is that he alternates between an open string and a chord form approach.

[ralph johansson]

As I have posted on here before, many bands played and tuned one step higher than standard in the "old days" to get that high lonesome sound, I guess, so some of the songs that some of you suggested that were done in certain keys were actually not performed in that key...Also some bands just tuned to whatever when they went into the studio unless they had an instrument that had a set tuning like a piano or a horn..UGH.....I guess what I am saying is that a lot of older tunes cannot be said to be played in any certain key....

Willie


I suppose you mean half step. F&S tuned a half step high on some of their recordings. In Monroe's case there is almost nothing of that and in most cases his keys are unambiguous. One mystery is Christmas Time/First Whippoorwill which appears to be
in F and Ab, although E and G are "intended". And there was a vibraphone on Christmas!

Same with Brown Country Breakdown, which appears to be in F, but open strings and later versions give it away as being in E. Raw Hide is also a hair sharp. But that's about all.

An interesting example of the importance of choice of keys is Georgia Rose. Monroe recorded it twice. The first version is in C, the second (with three fiddles) in B (as is the Opry version on YouTube). The groove is quite different, with Joel Price supplying more of a 4/4,
and Ernie Newton sticking to 2/2 and his typical offbeat accents on that slap pad of his. But Monroe himself sounds very different on the two recordings - I would almost say that B is the more natural key to him, as if he were tuned in B.

[Charley wild]

I would side with you on that one Alan. There are songs that I expect to be in certain keys. Walls of Time in C, I'm Going Back to Old Kentucky in A, Dim Lights, Thick Smoke in F, On and On in G, True Life Blues in A. I've played Walls of Time in B on more than one occasion and it works fine. A step or two up or down is what I usually expect. When somebody wants something way off the mark, that's a good time to experiment with a break or grab another beer. I usually pick the latter!

Just being nit picky here. I believe F&S did "Dim Lights...... in the key of E. The original recording is in F but I'll bet they are tuned up a half step. There is a video of them doing it on their TV show and they are doing it in E and it is in E. Also I'm old enough to have seen them do it live and they did it in E. Just saying...
This happens with "Rank Stranger" also. There seems to be a minor disagreement going on as to the song being in E or F. There is a video of them doing it in E.....and it is in E. But I have seen it transcribed in F. So.....?

[sgarrity]

No one is arguing that you can't play a song in whatever key you want. I mean look at John Hartford and his love of Eb.....it suited his voice and style. But if you go to enough jam sessions you'll start to see some trends. This of course can vary depending on what part of the country you're in and the individuals you play with. Now Pike County in B.....it's easy if you're the banjo and whip out a capo. But listen to Monroe's break and you can tell it's an A tune.

[Timbofood]

I agree, if all you have to do is chuck on a capo, not difficult to go into any key really. Damned banjo players anyway!

[jimj]

Very Nice Shawn!!!!

[John Ritchhart]

You don't even have to stay in one key. Johnny Gimble did Faded Love starting in D for the instrumental, moved to A for the verse, then to E for the chorus, and back to D for the instrumental ending.

[ralph johansson]

I agree, if all you have to do is chuck on a capo, not difficult to go into any key really. Damned banjo players anyway!

Frankly, with a capo you easily get lost going up the neck.

[ralph johansson]

Just being nit picky here. I believe F&S did "Dim Lights...... in the key of E. The original recording is in F but I'll bet they are tuned up a half step. There is a video of them doing it on their TV show and they are doing it in E and it is in E. Also I'm old enough to have seen them do it live and they did it in E. Just saying...
This happens with "Rank Stranger" also. There seems to be a minor disagreement going on as to the song being in E or F. There is a video of them doing it in E.....and it is in E. But I have seen it transcribed in F. So.....?

Gene Lowinger in his book "I Hear a Voice Calling" relates how Monroe kept everybody on his toes by doing some of his numbers in several keys. For instance, Blue Yodel No.4 (which was, really, No.3) could be done in Bb, B, or C, In the Pines in E or F.

[AlanN]

Frankly, with a capo you easily get lost going up the neck.

I imagine this would be the case, and I have never used one. Plus, I would miss the lower-end real estate.

[ralph johansson]

Kentucky Waltz ... Monroe did it first in C and then moved up to D.




To be exact, the Columbia version of 1945 was in the key of D. I know of no recorded version in the key of C.
There's a live recording from 1956 in the key of E, which is also the key of the Decca version from 1971.
And the electric version, from 1951, seems to be in the key of F.