Advice on Mandolas and Octaves

[rps2rduc]

Hello All,
I'm a total newbie to the mando family of instruments and I'm hoping some of you fine folks will share advice/comments about mandolas and octave mandos. I'm a guitar player but would like to add a mando family member. After tinkering with a pretty decent loaner Kentucky A mandolin for a spell I 'think' I would prefer a mandola or octave over a mando for a number of reasons. But man, those instruments are hard to come by. Seems they are quite scarce when compared to the mandolin.

I've had extremely limited opportunity to play either. A local dealer here did have a Weber Octave here quite awhile back that I plinked around on and about all I remember is the scale length on that one was uncomfortably long for me. I'm guessing it was the 22" scale... so that has me wondering about octaves I see with 20" scale and mandolas.

I'm guessing there are many reasons for the relative scarcity of the larger mando siblings, but I'm most concerned about playability on the octave, and possible transposition issues on the mandola. Also curious what you all might have to say regarding application in a group setting.

Thanks in advance for any and all comment.

Ross

[Bertram Henze]

Playability: up to 22" there is no problem that can't be bypassed. Of course, you can't do exactly the same patterns as on a mandolin, but you can do other things, supported by the fact that the larger instruments have a longer sustain. I play 21" but most of what I do (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySu3nSMRhy0) would go with 22" as well.

Group setting: the Octave shares a register with the guitar and can do much of what the guitar does in a group, e.g. it can be played finger-style for song accompaniment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5JbvfFIL4s).

[rps2rduc]

Thanks Bertram,
Hmmm, I guess that's what I'm kinda asking.... if a 2" shorter scale would significantly lessen or eliminate the necessity to 'bypass problems.' I just don't have a clue because I'm unable to compare the two 'in the flesh.' I need all the help I can get avoiding 'problems.'

Vocal accompaniment is another reason I'm interested in the octave. I saw a YouTube where Sierra Hull commented on capo-ing an octave to facilitate playing in 'odd' keys. Plus with an octave capoed at 4 you'd essentially have a mandola, tho I suspect you'd give up a fair amount of sustain and depth...

[Bertram Henze]

The Octave tends to develop another problem: the shorter the scale, the heavier the strings must be, and the further away the sound drifts from what makes us love the Octave in the first place: droney deep tone with a brilliant topping, so to speak.
Therefore, I'd always head for the longest scale I could handle. And even with 20" it's a different beast from the mandolin - there is no way to bypass the bypass. You have to get used to whatever your choice will be; others have made it, all it takes is courage. :cool:

[rps2rduc]

the shorter the scale, the heavier the strings must be,

Thanks for your responses.
Hmmm, heavier strings because? My elementary and perhaps flawed understanding of physics would lead me to believe that the same diameter string in shorter scale = less tension which should = more drone not less... tho I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns there in that equation.

Plus, I could see how a little less drone and a more percussive, tighter tone could possibly be better for some non-traditional applications. That's part of my question I guess. Not trying to argue, just a newbie trying to understand why you just don't see many in action outside the Celtic realm.

Apparent lack of other interest in this thread further peaks my curiosity about the larger mando-esque instruments.

[allenhopkins]

Not sure why you feel that larger mandolin-family instruments are "hard to come by." If you're OK with Asian-made mandolas and OM's, there are Trinity College and Gold Tone instruments readily available on-line. True, less opportunity to try them out first, but you can at least get some impressions of how the different scale length and body designs suit you.

You'd have to capo your OM at the 5th fret to get "mandola equivalency." And as a guitarist, you shouldn't find the longer scale that foreign. The OM's definitely a different instrument from the mandolin, in terms of its musical role, and the combination of wider-spaced frets and 5ths tuning leads to an approach that's neither guitar nor mandolin.

Mandola's a lot closer to the mandolin, and you can do many of the same things on mandola that you're used to on mandolin. On the other hand, while it is usable for vocal accompaniment, IMHO it's less suited than the octave mandolin for that.

[Bertram Henze]

My elementary and perhaps flawed understanding of physics would lead me to believe that the same diameter string in shorter scale = less tension

...correct, but not wanted: a given instrument body responds best to a certain tension, so you want to have exactly that. Too low tension makes a flubby, quiet tone and intonation issues.


which should = more drone not less...

...not correct. A string sounds best if as thin as possible, at any tension, to have linear forces parallel with the string rather than non-linear camber forces near nut and saddle (in other words, you want a vibrating thread, not a vibrating sausage).

[rps2rduc]

Not sure why you feel that larger mandolin-family instruments are "hard to come by." If you're OK with Asian-made mandolas and OM's, there are Trinity College and Gold Tone instruments readily available on-line. True, less opportunity to try them out first

Yeah, online there are a few available new, VERY FEW used, and unfortunately none that I know of locally to test drive. Half of the ads on the CBOM page here are from 2013, thus my perception of 'relative' scarcity. I'm not interested in a flat tops and I know the asian instruments are far better than their cost belies, but I know in the end MAS will set in so I'm looking to skip the 'starter' instrument. And I only mean 'starter' as it applies to me personally. Call me stupid, impractical whatever but, as a craftsman myself, given two sonically equal instruments I know will get more personal satisfaction from a small shop or luthier built instrument.



You'd have to capo your OM at the 5th fret to get "mandola equivalency." And as a guitarist, you shouldn't find the longer scale that foreign. The OM's definitely a different instrument from the mandolin, in terms of its musical role, and the combination of wider-spaced frets and 5ths tuning leads to an approach that's neither guitar nor mandolin.

Mandola's a lot closer to the mandolin, and you can do many of the same things on mandola that you're used to on mandolin. On the other hand, while it is usable for vocal accompaniment, IMHO it's less suited than the octave mandolin for that.

Oops, yeah I never was good at math...
Well it's been awhile since I played that Weber Octave but I did actually find the scale foreign. I'd be interested to know (and I guess I should just look up) the actual fret to fret measurements on the different scale lengths as compared to guitar.

[rps2rduc]

...not correct. A string sounds best if as thin as possible, at any tension, to have linear forces parallel with the string rather than non-linear camber forces near nut and saddle (in other words, you want a vibrating thread, not a vibrating sausage).

Well now I guess I have to argue... :) I know from direct experience with guitars using lite vs. med. strings that I MUCH prefer the sound of a med to a light on any guitar I have owned. I don't think one can necessarily state what is 'best' with regard to sound, only preferred. I think I probably would consider something in between a sausage and a thread my 'best' sound. Like maybe parachute chord. :))

[allenhopkins]

...I'm not interested in a flat tops...I'm looking to skip the 'starter' instrument….I know will get more personal satisfaction from a small shop or luthier built instrument…

I was going to suggest some fairly affordable, small-shop builds like Petersen and Gypsy, but if you want only carved-top instruments they won't do. (Parenthetically, I have an old "flat-top giant 'pancake'" Flatiron "bouzouki" or octave mandolin, from the mid-1980's, and it's a pretty nice instrument.)

I'd say Weber's your best bet, in terms of availability -- or get a builder to make you one. Here's (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?86999-Suggestions-for-Mid-priced-Octave-Mandolins) a fairly recent thread on mid-priced OM's.

In mandolas, you obviously have a wider choice in carved-tops: Eastman and JBovier both make 'em, prices from $1.6K plus to over $2K. I have an Eastman 615 mandola and it's nice -- although with both makers you're paying a bit extra for the F-model scroll-and-points ornamentation. Here's the Mandolin Store's mandola page, (http://www.themandolinstore.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=93) giving you some idea of what's available and what prices are.

One thought: if you're considering using a mandola for vocal accompaniment, you might want to concentrate on oval-hole instruments. They have a less percussive, longer sustaining sound than the f-hole models, at least IMHO.

[Brandon Flynn]

If you're coming from guitar I would think the Octave would be a better choice. I just recently got to play a mandola and and octave mandolin for the first time (I play mandolin only) and I am picking up a mandola most likely because I liked how close the scale is to the mandolin while still having a much deeper sound.

I too prefer carve top instruments. So you have the f-hole vs. oval hole decision to make either way. If possible at all I would try to play one of either the mandola or octave with an oval hole vs. f holes. Pretty big difference in sound. For me, the focused, punchy nature of f holes is what I envision from mandolin family instruments, so I go with f holes. If you don't have a very specific sound in mind for the instrument, you could choose either. But if you do have a specific sort of sound in mind, I would try to find out whether it is more of an oval hole or an f hole.

[Bertram Henze]

I know from direct experience with guitars using lite vs. med. strings that I MUCH prefer the sound of a med to a light on any guitar I have owned.

Of course, that's the first part I addressed: the tension must not be too low; on the same instrument, lighter strings have less tension. But once the tension is set, the length of the string makes a huge difference.

[rps2rduc]

Thanks a lot for all the info so far,
So I went and found a fret spacing calculator and punched in some #s and now I'm even more corn-fused about why I found the stretch to be so uncomfortably long on the one OM I had the chance to play, admittedly it was awhile ago, but I remember it being very cumbersome to play. I guess it's because they're tuned in fifths and I was fumbling about trying to find chords and scales in a guitar based fashion. But in the end I'm thinking that's how I will be approaching the instrument.

I've also run across the threads discussing dropping mandolas to OM tuning which sounds interesting (Bertram? :-) )

I apologize for my ignorance on the subject but I just don't have access to any of these instruments locally.

[Bertram Henze]

...fumbling about trying to find chords and scales in a guitar based fashion.

The one problem guitar players often have is their left hand position, fingers parallel with the frets, as opposed to the violin/cello-like hand attitude needed for the stretches the 5ths tuning requires. There is a reason why the OM fretboard is narrower that that of a guitar - use it. Watch videos of how cello players work their fretboards and see what you can learn.

Don't even get me started on mandolas tuned down to OM - I had one for years and won't be looking back :sleepy:

[ollaimh]

imho, a guitar player is not going to have any trouble with a 22 inch scale. I like a 20 inche scale for fast irish/Scottish jigs and reels, but I have both.. I play a 20 inch , a 21.50, and a 22 inch scale . I don't mind switching back and forth at all--call the non fussy picker!!! I also play greek bouzoukis with long scales. one is 27 inches. I can't play the fast tunes without a lot of practice but I enjoy the big "wang" of an antique greek bouzouki. so unless you are really fussy over scale lengths I would go for the sound you like best over scale.

I have a natural aversion to Asian instruments but the truth is the quality coming from asia has soared in recent years. for cheap prices I have found gold tone the most impressive. I was blown away by a recent trip to a music store by the gold tone octaves , bouzoukis and mandolas, for the price range. but although I don't much like trinity college, keep in mind a certain amount is in the player. I have a freind who plays a trinity bouzouki and he makes it sing like a bird--a really big noisy bird!!!

I also have been really imporessed by some Portuguese stuff. on a recent rip to portugual I played several instruments by Antonio caravhlo. his octaves , mandolas and bouzolukis sound fantastic. I have one of his portuguese guitars, it cost be $600usd second hand (including shipping and tax) and it plays and sounds better than a lot of $1500 guitarras. ditto for his cboms. he uses solid woods, I like his indian rosewood back and sides cboms . ever one I played was great. they come up on ebay.

and finally I prefer flat top cboms. I have a carved top tha's great but you get a really driving response from a flat top that is my thing. of course it depends on the instrument.

I have a terry warbey made octave 22 inch scale that I love(we lost terry to luthery as he makes a lot more money making jewelry--a crying shame), flat top that has amazing response, and I have a grit laskin 10 string, flattop with great response. in the hands of a great lutheir you can get amazing flat tops. but my carved top is also nice--and more nuanced and moody.

I think you should start with a flat top from gold tone and play the heck out of it--then see how you feel