PDA

View Full Version : A $45 million fiddle?



bohemianbiker
Mar-26-2014, 1:45pm
According to this nytimes article (link below), Sotheby's is going to auction off a Stadivari viola, and is asking for bids of $45 million or more to be submitted.

But more importantly, the NYTimes has an opinion on the "what is a fiddle" debate, and called the viola a fiddle in the 5th paragraph (ie, adopting the Wikipedia definition that a fiddle is a string instrument played by a bow, and thus has a broader definition than the word "violin").

Alas, the seller chose not to sell the instrument in the Cafe's classifieds .... bb

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/arts/music/for-sale-playing-a-heady-tune.html?hpw&rref=arts&_r=0

mrmando
Mar-26-2014, 2:09pm
Hank Risan wishes he had one of those... of course if he did, it would be worth $450 million.

sgarrity
Mar-26-2014, 2:14pm
I found it interesting that it's the opposite in mandolins. A Loar-signed H5 sells for about/roughly half what an F5 does. I suppose the viola market is a bit bigger than the market though! ;-)

bratsche
Mar-26-2014, 2:17pm
Neat! One of only 10 of its kind. Unable to get the video to play, though. :(

bratsche

John Ritchhart
Mar-26-2014, 2:37pm
Wow, that's quite a sound. In the hands of a master no question. But 45 million? I bet you could get an A model that sounds just as good for a lot less. :disbelief:

allenhopkins
Mar-26-2014, 2:37pm
Perhaps this would cure its violist owner of the traditional viola inferiority complex…

Viola jokes Part 1 (http://web.mit.edu/jcb/www/viola-jokes.html)

Viola jokes Part 2 (http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/jokes/viola2.html)

Some of these will be familiar as "banjo jokes" and "accordion jokes."

Franc Homier Lieu
Mar-26-2014, 3:18pm
But more importantly, the NYTimes has an opinion on the "what is a fiddle" debate, and called the viola a fiddle in the 5th paragraph (ie, adopting the Wikipedia definition that a fiddle is a string instrument played by a bow, and thus has a broader definition than the word "violin").

Leopold Mozart dedicated the first two sections of the introduction to his book on violin technique to distinguishing the twelve kinds of fiddles, and locating the violin within this family of instruments. However, the real must read of the introduction is section 3, in which he excoriates violin makers for adding, wait for it, a scroll.

Bluetickhound
Mar-26-2014, 3:31pm
Man, that Carpenter cat can PLAY!!

Jim Garber
Mar-26-2014, 3:56pm
Neat! One of only 10 of its kind.

A friend of mine is knows that instrument said that it is not just one of 10 in existence, it is of normal size. Evidently many of Stradivari's violas were enormous and much larger than players want today. I believe that many of the earlier violas were cut down to more modern size and that some were actually meant to be played in cello position. Also, according to Sotheby's, the MacDonald is the only example from his golden period

Maybe this link works better for the video playback? The 'Macdonald' Viola by Antonio Stradivari (http://www.sothebys.com/content/sothebys/en/news-video/videos/2014/03/the-macdonald-viola-by-stradivari.html)

sgarrity
Mar-26-2014, 4:07pm
The player in the video also says that it's the only one in circulation, the other 9 are owned by museums or foundations. It will certainly be interesting to see how much it sells for.

peterk
Mar-26-2014, 4:50pm
Similar to the M. Jackson's glove, the market value of such unique collectible merchandise (investment objects) is at a fantastic disparity with their functional value.


117328

Charlieshafer
Mar-26-2014, 4:57pm
They're hoping this ends up in a foundation as well, some museum or collector that needs the viola to complete the set of violin, viola, and cello. Under those circumstances, I bet it'll get the 45. I'd buy it, but gosh, just don't have the cash. Then again, I'll buy anything so maybe I'm not a good point of reference..

JeffD
Mar-26-2014, 5:02pm
the market value ... is at a fantastic disparity with their functional value.


The value of something is dependent on soooo much outside of functional value. There is the rarity, the history, the name, the dreams, fantasies, and uncontrolled lust of potential bidders. Its great. I hope it goes higher.

bohemianbiker
Mar-26-2014, 5:20pm
The value of something is dependent on soooo much outside of functional value. There is the rarity, the history, the name, the dreams, fantasies, and uncontrolled lust of potential bidders. Its great. I hope it goes higher.

Yes, but what often happens is that hedge fund managers or other finance gurus end up buying these things based on their assessment of the prospects of the instrument appreciating. And while they often do loan them to very able musicians, I wish the musicians could actually own them. I dunno, maybe it doesn't matter, as long as they're played, but sky-prices means musicians don't make the decisions about who plays them. bb

peterk
Mar-26-2014, 5:31pm
Its great. I hope it goes higher.

Why ? Every time such violins, violas or cellos fetch unprecedented high auction sales, the cartel in control of marketing and selling old Italian bowed string instruments quickly makes upward adjustments to the prices of lower echelon orchestral violins such as those by Gagliano or Vuillaume....kind of a domino effect. Now, a young (or old) violin player in the New York Philharmonic orchestra has been under significant pressure to show up with a nice old Italian instrument in order that they can "blend in with the overall orchestra sound". Has their income grown in proportion to the insanely escalating prices of good violins ? Of course not. Today those players are much less capable of purchasing a "required" old Italian violin than even a couple of years ago.

OldSausage
Mar-26-2014, 5:32pm
I found it interesting that it's the opposite in mandolins. A Loar-signed H5 sells for about/roughly half what an F5 does. I suppose the viola market is a bit bigger than the market though! ;-)

Just give it another 200 years...

Bernie Daniel
Mar-26-2014, 5:45pm
Perhaps this would cure its violist owner of the traditional viola inferiority complex…

Viola jokes Part 1 (http://web.mit.edu/jcb/www/viola-jokes.html)

Viola jokes Part 2 (http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/jokes/viola2.html)

Some of these will be familiar as "banjo jokes" and "accordion jokes."

Yes great fun but I have always thought that viola jokes stem more from violin player's anxiety, envies, and feelings of inadequacy? Clearly the viola is a superior sound? :)

Elliot Luber
Mar-26-2014, 5:56pm
I found it interesting that it's the opposite in mandolins. A Loar-signed H5 sells for about/roughly half what an F5 does. I suppose the viola market is a bit bigger than the market though! ;-)

That's because Bill played the F5. We need an H5 superstar. :)

sgarrity
Mar-26-2014, 7:29pm
Well before today I'd have been hard pressed to name a viola superstar! :grin:

I think the Dawg and Peter Rowan are as close to an H5 superstar as we're gonna get!
Although for awhile Forrest O'Connor (Mark's son) was using a mandola as his primary instrument.

OldGus
Mar-26-2014, 8:06pm
Neat! One of only 10 of its kind. Unable to get the video to play, though. :(

bratsche

Click on the video twice.

JeffD
Mar-26-2014, 8:17pm
, I wish the musicians could actually own them. I dunno, maybe it doesn't matter, as long as they're played, but sky-prices means musicians don't make the decisions about who plays them. bb

Were I a top level musician I would much rather rent something like that, properly insured, than be responsible for the care and security of a $45M object smaller than a suitcase. Remember this? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2548049/Symphony-musician-tasered-outside-concert-robber-stole-6million-rare-Stradivarius-violin.html) Even a wealthy musician, who could presumably afford the security guards and all could feel its too much of a hassle to own it. Lots of characters of the extra-legal community would take large risks for $45M.

luthier88
Mar-26-2014, 8:43pm
It is indeed one of 10 Stradivari violas in existence. There are 2 composite instruments, but only this viola and one in the hands of the Rothschild family are in private hands. Only one of Strad's violas to survive is "enormous". The rest are fairly normal. The Brescian makers made huge things, as well as the Amati, and almost all of the Brescian violas have been cut down. Sorta like reducing a Loar Mandola into a mandolin... There were 2 sizes of viola made back then-Alto and Tenore-and most have been reduced from 18-19"+ dimensions. Also, they were played under the chin, not as a cello.


A friend of mine is knows that instrument said that it is not just one of 10 in existence, it is of normal size. Evidently many of Stradivari's violas were enormous and much larger than players want today. I believe that many of the earlier violas were cut down to more modern size and that some were actually meant to be played in cello position. Also, according to Sotheby's, the MacDonald is the only example from his golden period

Maybe this link works better for the video playback? The 'Macdonald' Viola by Antonio Stradivari (http://www.sothebys.com/content/sothebys/en/news-video/videos/2014/03/the-macdonald-viola-by-stradivari.html)

Ivan Kelsall
Mar-27-2014, 5:45am
The Viola is my favourite of all the orchestral stringed instruments & regardless of it's price,i wish to heaven i could get to hear this one 'in the wood' as it were,in concert. My sincere hope that it doesn't end up like Bill Monroe's 'Loar',in a glass case, simply ''gawked at'' by folks who'd love to hear it again,
Ivan:(

bohemianbiker
Mar-27-2014, 9:14am
Were I a top level musician I would much rather rent something like that, properly insured, than be responsible for the care and security of a $45M object smaller than a suitcase. Remember this? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2548049/Symphony-musician-tasered-outside-concert-robber-stole-6million-rare-Stradivarius-violin.html) Even a wealthy musician, who could presumably afford the security guards and all could feel its too much of a hassle to own it. Lots of characters of the extra-legal community would take large risks for $45M.

I take your point that there could be less expenses and headaches in renting an instrument like this (and my understanding is that often in these arrangements the musician does not pay rent; the arrangement is more like an interest free loan), but there are elements of pride and control in ownership. And if the musicians were doing the buying, the prices would be lower. I suspect most musicians at this (or any) level would rather own, but who knows.

And it's all a moot point. I may as well be wishing for the buggy whip to make a return to market .... bb

farmerjones
Mar-27-2014, 9:47am
That's roughly a thousand new 3/4 ton pickup trucks, or eighteen new combines. Or I could buy 10 million people a beer! Or I could get Jimmy Buffett to play while 9 million of us had a beer. I've played viola. They are easy to dislike.

John Flynn
Mar-27-2014, 10:24am
I like Garrison Keillor's analysis of the viola from "A Young Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra"

"The viola section is no place for a Lutheran and here you have to take my word for it, because I know violists and they're okay until late at night, they like to build a fire in a vacant lot and drink red wine and roast a chicken on a clothes hanger and talk about going to Mexico with somebody named Rita. Violists have this dark, moody, gypsy streak, especially when they get older, and they realize that their instrument for some reason cannot be heard beyond the stage. You think you hear the violas, but it's really the second violins."

bratsche
Mar-27-2014, 10:41am
"....I know violists and they're okay until late at night, they like to build a fire in a vacant lot and drink red wine and roast a chicken on a clothes hanger and talk about going to Mexico with somebody named Rita. Violists have this dark, moody, gypsy streak, especially when they get older...."

Wow. Musical life must be... um, let's say "different"... in Minnesota, or wherever that guy's from. As an aging violist, I can say I haven't met any violists coming even close to that description.... sounds like brass players, to me! :)

bratsche

mandala37
Mar-27-2014, 1:40pm
Well before today I'd have been hard pressed to name a viola superstar! :grin:

I was taught that the person who first established the viola as a solo instrument was Lionel Tertis. A good deal of the solo viola music composed in the first quarter of the 20th century was written for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwXpg0l2VtE

In the next generation you had William Primrose. Bartok and Britten both wrote works for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH7BBg0tjxQ

There are lots of wonderful viola players today, but I'll cite Kim Kashkashian as a personal favorite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f812BcDblsA

By the way, Tertis played a Montagnana viola and eventually designed his own instrument. Primrose played, and Kashkashian plays, an Amati.

Tom Wright
Mar-27-2014, 2:23pm
Mozart reputedly preferred playing viola in a string quartet, I think because it was easier to pay attention to the other parts, which tells you something about its typical role.

Paganini owned a Strad viola, and Berlioz wrote "Harold in Italy" for him and that viola. It didn't impress Paganini as enough of a showpiece so he declined to premier it. That instrument was owned at that time by the Corcoran Gallery of Art, and was in use by the National Symphony's principal viola, Richard Parnas, when he showed it to me. I was taking some coaching from him in 79 and he told me that story.

From Wikipedia: Paganini owned a full string quartet of Strads, and they have stayed together, now in use by the Tokyo Quartet, whose benefactor, the Nippon Foundation, bought the set from the Corcoran in 1993 for $15 million.

My favorite viola player is Pinchas Zuckerman, who was using one of those big Gaspar De Salo instruments at one time-- huge sound but that is a Zuckerman trademark on any fiddle.

journeybear
Jun-25-2014, 11:25am
If I am reading all this correctly, I believe the estimated value of this instrument is due to its rarity (only ten out of 650 Stradivarius instruments in existence), availability (the only of these ten likely to come up for auction any time soon, and the first to have done so in quite some time), and quality (apparently universally agreed-upon). What may keep it from going for much more than the opening price is a lack of interest in violas in general, rather than this one in particular.

What I would really like - make that, love - to happen is for the new owner to make this fine instrument available to every violist who wants to use it for a recording. Mr. Carpenter said something about how it should be played and recorded as much as possible, and that struck home with me. Beautiful music should be preserved and made available for as many and for as long as possible. There are many artists whose careers preceded recording technology, and while I am grateful some were able to get recorded, however crudely, at the dawn of this era, I am saddened to think of how many weren't. For example, I would love to hear what Jenny Lind really sounded like, instead of having to imagine.

journeybear
Jun-25-2014, 2:15pm
So, I finally got around to reading the viola jokes from Allen's links. A lot of them are pretty inside - that is, they seem intended for orchestra members - and some are old hat and/or have been reworked to disparage other instruments. But some of them got me chuckling:

Why do violists stand for long periods outside people's houses?
They can't find the key and they don't know when to come in.

Why can't you hear a viola on a digital recording?
Recording technology has reached such an advanced level of development that all extraneous noise is eliminated.

What's the difference between a chain saw and a viola?
If you absolutely had to, you could use a chain saw in a string quartet.
(I've heard this with a banjo as the object, and the punch line as, "you can tune a chain saw." But this is fine, also.)

A noted bon vivant and comic was recently flying to Berlin. He decided to strike up a conversation with his seat mate
"I've got a great violist joke. Would you like to hear it?"
"I should let you know first that I am a violist".
"That's OK. I'll tell it real slow!"

Almost last, but not least:

A violist in an orchestra was crying and screaming at the oboe player sitting directly behind him. The conductor asked, "What are you so upset about?"
The violist replied, "The oboist reached over and turned one of the pegs on my viola and now it's all out of tune!"
The conductor asked, "Don't you think you're overreacting?"

The violist replied, "I'm not overreacting! He won't tell me which one!"

And, at long last, I have learned the origin of Bratsche's name:

Why is viola called "bratsche" in Germany?
Because that's the sound it makes when you sit down on it. :crying:

bohemianbiker
Jun-26-2014, 8:38am
I like the one in the NPR article: How do you keep a violin from being stolen? Put it in a viola case.

According to this Business Week article, the fiddle did not sell, but ongoing efforts might result in an offer "closer to $45 million." bb

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-06-26/worlds-most-expensive-instrument-stradivarius-viola-fails-to-sell

Petrus
Jun-26-2014, 4:03pm
Okay, as a one-time viola owner ($100 "Fever" ... worst name ever), I don't understand the violaphobia out there (and I know it's been around a long time before us.) I mean, it's just a bigger violin isn't it? Players love violins and they love cellos. Assuming equal build quality and musicianship, what is is that generates the viola jokes? Are they commonly not built as well? Why are violins and cellos held in high regard but not violas?

Pete Martin
Jun-26-2014, 5:20pm
As to value of a collectable instrument

"Beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder" :))

mrmando
Jun-26-2014, 5:26pm
For example, I would love to hear what Jenny Lind really sounded like, instead of having to imagine.
Well, she wasn't much of a violist!

mrmando
Jun-26-2014, 5:29pm
Mozart reputedly preferred playing viola in a string quartet.

The same is true of Schubert.

I have a mandolin quartet gig tomorrow and I'm very pleased to have an opportunity to play the Lyon & Healy mandola. My viola, I admit, has been sadly neglected of late.

Astro
Jun-26-2014, 6:48pm
Thanks for that link to the clip Jim. Enjoyed that. And that clip sounded much better than the clip I heard on npr. Its beautiful.

Still, I wouldnt pay a penny over 44,900,000.

bohemianbiker
Jun-26-2014, 7:37pm
Okay, as a one-time viola owner ($100 "Fever" ... worst name ever), I don't understand the violaphobia out there (and I know it's been around a long time before us.) I mean, it's just a bigger violin isn't it? Players love violins and they love cellos. Assuming equal build quality and musicianship, what is is that generates the viola jokes? Are they commonly not built as well? Why are violins and cellos held in high regard but not violas?

I agree, but I have been assuming all these viola jokes are tongue in cheek. People like to make jokes about how their instruments are better than others, and I think this just falls into that category. Except that, I'd note that mandolins really are better than banjos .... :)) bb

Charlieshafer
Jun-26-2014, 7:40pm
I'm thinking we'll need a whole new category of jokes for 5-string violins. It's a violin and viola all at once. And now, there's a 5-string cello being made.

bratsche
Jun-26-2014, 8:14pm
And, at long last, I have learned the origin of Bratsche's name:

Why is viola called "bratsche" in Germany?
Because that's the sound it makes when you sit down on it. :crying:

Ha ha ha! :)) Never heard that one before! :disbelief: (said no violist ever).


Okay, as a one-time viola owner ($100 "Fever" ... worst name ever), I don't understand the violaphobia out there (and I know it's been around a long time before us.) I mean, it's just a bigger violin isn't it? Players love violins and they love cellos. Assuming equal build quality and musicianship, what is is that generates the viola jokes? Are they commonly not built as well? Why are violins and cellos held in high regard but not violas?

It's a relic from a thankfully bygone era, when the large majority of viola players used to be either failed, or should-have-been-put-out-to-pasture-already violinists. That hasn't been the case for many decades, but some notions never die.

bratsche

Nick Eanet
Jun-26-2014, 10:17pm
Strad violas are extremely rare but not up to the standards if his violins, and to a lesser extent, his cellos. I've been lucky enough to play two of his violas and a nice handful of his violins. They all need some time to get used to, the set up is extremely important, and generally they prefer more bow speed and not more pressure. They are all meticulously made, as opposed to Guaneri del Gesu, whose violins are not as carefully made, generally don't take as much time to get used to, but are right up there with the amazing quality of sound.

Petrus
Jun-26-2014, 10:45pm
I'd like to know how good Gibson's violins were ...

120986

(Slowly veering the thread to some mando content ... ) :cool:

journeybear
Jun-26-2014, 10:52pm
I'll nudge it just a bit further in that direction. I am shocked - shocked! :disbelief: - to learn that, even this far in, there has been not one mention of Stradivarius mandolins in this thread. I am pretty sure they would not command anywhere this much were they ever to come up for auction - even though there are even fewer of them in existence. I guess supply vs demand doesn't explain pricing in every case. :(

120990 120991120993

Clearly, he put some time into the construction, just perhaps not his forté. Also, the maestro built guitars:

120992

Petrus
Jun-26-2014, 11:07pm
I've brought them up elsewhere a time or two. I've got one in my avatar. (10-stringer, so you can argue it's a cittern, but I think it's listed as a mandolin.)

Charlieshafer
Jun-27-2014, 10:25am
I'd like to know how good Gibson's violins were ...

120986

(Slowly veering the thread to some mando content ... ) :cool:

I've played 4, and always was tempted to get one just because of the name, but unfortunately, all were pretty lousy.

JeffD
Jun-27-2014, 11:05am
It's a relic from a thankfully bygone era, when the large majority of viola players used to be either failed, or should-have-been-put-out-to-pasture-already violinists. That hasn't been the case for many decades, but some notions never die.


I had assumed that it was because the viola spends most of its time in support of the violin. Violin, especially first chair, get to play a lot of the melody. Cellos too play a lot of melody. But viola its kind of rare.

I remember hearing Karl Haas (Adventures in Good Music - one of the few radio programs we stopped everything else to listen to) addressing this issue. He said something about the viola not being as natural an instrument - compromised in tone and volume because of its geometry, compared to the violin and the cello. I don't know if I got that right, or if I buy it, but the prejudice seems to exist.

Pete Martin
Jun-27-2014, 11:36am
I've played 4, and always was tempted to get one just because of the name, but unfortunately, all were pretty lousy.


I've played several. Not a good one among them.

Nick Eanet
Jun-27-2014, 3:37pm
I remember hearing Karl Haas (Adventures in Good Music - one of the few radio programs we stopped everything else to listen to) addressing this issue. He said something about the viola not being as natural an instrument - compromised in tone and volume because of its geometry, compared to the violin and the cello. I don't know if I got that right, or if I buy it, but the prejudice seems to exist.

He was a special host. And you got it right - the viola is a terrific instrument, but without the brilliancy of the violin, and without the deep resonance of a fine cello. It truly is a tweener. I played string quartets for years, but playing string chamber music without a viola definitely leaves a gap - it bridges the violin and cello beautifully and has its own magical timbre.

Jim Garber
Jun-27-2014, 4:01pm
I'd like to know how good Gibson's violins were ...


I've played 4, and always was tempted to get one just because of the name, but unfortunately, all were pretty lousy.

I have one and it is a decent fiddle but not my favorite. I would not say it was lousy. OTOH I would love to find a Gibson upright bass (or Epiphone).