What accounts for tonal differences of similar models?

[9lbShellhamer]

I'm curious how there can be so many tonal differences in the same brand and model.

I'm guessing that it is due to inconsistencies in the wood, and maybe glue, etc. Is there anything else?

How much can be attributed to set up, given the set up of both instruments was done by a quality shop, like some of the great vendors here at MandolinCafe?

Could a "dud" be tuned by a great set-up guy or maybe by mandovodoo servicing?

Keep in mind I'm only saying, to get it to sound as good as others of the same make and model. Nothing unreasonable. I'm comparing exact same models.

Basic questions, I know, but I'm still surprised how similar guitars sound, and how different like brands and models of mandolins can sound. Thanks to the high numbers of guitar players in the world it's easy to get a great guitar for $1200. I think the best bottom end mando is like $2000 for a nice studio quality A. Demand...simple economics.

After playing some a Kimble, Duff, Gilchrist, Collings I fell in love with their BASS!

Another thread of thought...

I would love to think the $1000 mass produced models that are "bargain" instruments sounded like the $2000 american counterparts, but unfortunately, my ears are telling me otherwise, now that I've been able to play some nice $2k A models...The other are very nice, they just aren't equal in bass and mid range. Then again, Kentucky and Eastman don't offer a similar model to the satin finish Collings, Silverangel, Summit, Etc, that are all in the $2k range. The KY 900 and 950 and the Eastman 805 are all blinged out, so they really compare to the $3500 american counterparts...

Alas I digress.

Time to start saving...:mandosmiley:

[sgarrity]

You pretty much answered your own question. You also have to throw in there the experience of the luthier. The individual hand built instruments are just better. Some of the import stuff can be really decent. I had a KM-1000 that was a fine mandolin, shouldn't have sold it. The KM-900 is nice too. A friend has an Eastman Dawg model that's pretty nice. But they don't compare to some of the other builders you listed. I'm not sure what you're playing now or what your end goal is but I'd highly recommend buying the best A5 you can afford. Duff and Kimble both make exceptionally good instruments and their A5 is every bit the equal to their F5.

[DataNick]

+1 to Shaun's advice: to add more spice to the conversation a used Flatiron ("Derrington" models 1999-2002) can have equal tonal characteristics to a same period Gibson or other like-sounding/category bluegrass axe. My 99' Performer has tonal chacteristics that I prefer over most mandos in the 2-3k range (haven't played a Pava yet). Even the Kimble A model I played in Jan of this year wasn't "better" that my Flatiron, just a tad different, but my Flatiron has more "pop" and low end. Anyway, they're a great way to get into that level of mandolin at around $1k for the A model, 2k for the Festival F model

[JeffD]

Small differences in wood grain, set up, everything really, make a bigger difference in a mandolin than a guitar. So its not surprising.

Also, as a general statement, and as you have found out, a mandolin will generally cost twice as much as a guitar of comparable quality.

[sunburst]

Thanks to the high numbers of guitar players in the world it's easy to get a great guitar for $1200. I think the best bottom end mando is like $2000 for a nice studio quality A. Demand...simple economics.

Not so fast there.
If you are going to compare guitar and mandolin prices, compare flat to flat and carved to carved. If you can find a "great" archtop guitar for $1200, or even a $2000 one that compares in quality to a $2000 "nice studio quality A", I'll be surprised. On the other hand, if you spend $1200 on a flat top mandolin it will probably be a really nice one.

[9lbShellhamer]

Thanks for the comments. All great points.

[allenhopkins]

Guess you're mainly talking about new mandolins, where many of the tonal differences are attributable to the inherent variations in different pieces of wood. Also, need to factor in strings, picks, other "accessories" that may vary from instrument to instrument. And, of course, "changeable" factors like nut and bridge design/composition.

In pre-owned instruments, playing history is relevant. An instrument that's been played vigorously for a period of time may show a sonic improvement over one that's sat in its case or hung on the wall.

Often get a bit skeptical of generalizations about which make or model of mandolin is "better" than another, when there's so much variance within a single model. One can draw conclusions based on the materials indicated in an instrument's specs, and also based on the general reputation of the builder, in terms of excellence of construction and design. But two "identical" mandolins off the rack will sound different -- maybe subtly, maybe clearly.

Parenthetically, I've found this true of other acoustic instruments -- guitars, banjos etc. -- not just of mandolins. Spent a couple hours a few years ago, trying to determine which of three brand new Eastman mandolas to buy; they were quite different, though made with the same design and materials, strung with the same strings, played with the same pick. A real test case for the "every one's a bit different" hypothesis.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Given that the material mandolins are constructed from - wood,is a 'living' material rather than inert metal/plastic etc.,every piece is going to be different,one from another. Also,given that even if the builder carves & shapes all the parts of say,2 mandolins to identical size,by very careful measuring,after completion,i'd be very careful of placing a bet that they'd both sound the same either tonally or in volume. But isn't that the beauty of wooden instruments to begin with ?. None of us hear in exactly the same way,so one instrument will sound 'more pleasingly different' to one person, & the other will sound the same way to another person.That way,we all (mostly) get to find an instrument that ''sounds good to us'', because of the differences in the wood, 'maybe' more that the way the luthier has built them,but the combination of build & material has to be the final equation re. how one instrument sounds against another.
I keep a running e-mail correspondence with Cafe member 'Willie' who gets to more Bluegrass festivals & gigs in a year than i do in 20. Willie often remarks on something that we've all heard,top builder instruments that sound,shall we say - not too good !. Well, IF they sounded that way when they were new,they'd never have sold (IMHO).More often than not,unless something has gone seriously wrong,it's down to the way the owner has it set up,or how neglected it's been. IMHO,there's a lot of 'owner in-put' in a crap sounding instrument !. So,comparing one say,Gibson F5L mandolin (just to name a popular make/model) being played by it's owner to another being played by 'it's' owner, won't draw a correct comparison between the two instruments regarding their initial sound qualities 'as built'. In other words,you can't determine the colour of the whole herd,just by looking at one cow,
Ivan

[pheffernan]

Given that the material mandolins are constructed from - wood,is a 'living' material rather than inert metal/plastic etc.,every piece is going to be different,one from another.

Out of curiosity, would carbon fiber mandolins specifically, or instruments more generally, be less prone to this type of variation?

[Stephen Perry]

A great deal of difference comes from the fine details, much more than I would have thought when I started setting things up.

Quite a lot of fun may be had in light tweaking of things, especially the bridge. My MV site gives instructions for the patient. I suggest trying 8 points on the bridge as a start.

[Mark Wilson]

Thanks to the high numbers of guitar players in the world it's easy to get a great guitar for $1200. I think the best bottom end mando is like $2000 for a nice studio quality A. Demand...simple economics.

I'm hard pressed to recall playing a truly 'great' guitar for $1200 new. Good yes, but not one I'd prefer to record with. I will say I've formed that opinion only after playing better guitars. Prior to that my $500 guitar seemed perfectly wonderful to me. Just my palate maybe, but the guitars that tickle my ear now seem to be $2000 and up as well.

Nothing like a little quality time playing on a first class instrument to recalibrate your ear. And your wallet.

[9lbShellhamer]

In retrospect yes...i should have said, "Good" guitar.

I have a rosewood Larrivee guitar that I LOVE though...satin, no bling, that was about $1k. I guess it could be compared to a Breedlove OF mando which can had for the same cost.

[9lbShellhamer]

A great deal of difference comes from the fine details, much more than I would have thought when I started setting things up.

Quite a lot of fun may be had in light tweaking of things, especially the bridge. My MV site gives instructions for the patient. I suggest trying 8 points on the bridge as a start.

I've often considered sending my Km-950 in to you for a once over. I'm not so sure what you mean by 8 points? I watched the youtube clip but don't quite get it.

Thanks again,

Troy

[Astro]

I do appreciate the "connoisseur-ship" of a fine instrument but I've heard tons of great music from 500 dollar guitars and tons of boring finger-noodling exercises done on expensive ones (and I've certainly been guilty of the latter).

Back on topic, I think a lot of the variations come from small differences in bracing, bridge (placement and height), saddle break angle, and finish. Anything that effects movement of the soundboard.

If you have the time to wade through the boring parts, I found this physics professor/luthier lecture helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0FT2nsg0sQ

[Stephen Perry]

I've often considered sending my Km-950 in to you for a once over. I'm not so sure what you mean by 8 points? I watched the youtube clip but don't quite get it.

Thanks again,

Troy

Two pieces of wood. At each end, each piece has two edges where top and side meet. Make the 4 on the base match, and the 4 on the saddle match. In tapped pitch.

[J.Albert]

Q:
[[ What accounts for tonal differences of similar models? ]]

1. Wood
2. Craftsmanship
3. Luck of the draw...

[Mike Bunting]

I do appreciate the "connoisseur-ship" of a fine instrument but I've heard tons of great music from 500 dollar guitars and tons of boring finger-noodling exercises done on expensive ones
It seems to me that you are taking here about the operator, not the tool.

[Mike Bunting]

Nothing like a little quality time playing on a first class instrument to recalibrate your ear.
I like that idea of recalibrating the ear. I think that the longer one plays, the more the ear becomes attuned to the tones produced by the instrument.

[Astro]

It seems to me that you are taking here about the operator, not the tool.

Yep.

[Stephen Perry]

The problem comes when one's ears outpace one's needs and $$$. I'd have never thought that a $200,000 violin bow would be so much better than a $100,000 bow. Drat.

The limit is listening. When listening gets better, the old mandolin may not stack up.

[cigarfan]

Considering the temperamental nature of a mandolin, could be the mood they're in that accounts for the differences. Certainly a half-hour in the store ain't going to give you a true picture.

[DHopkins]

In pre-owned instruments, playing history is relevant. An instrument that's been played vigorously for a period of time may show a sonic improvement over one that's sat in its case or hung on the wall.

I think you nailed it. There are variations in all the different components, especially those made of wood but a well-used instrument that may have been "broken in" can sound completely different from the same model that may have identical components but hasn't been played.