Capos

[ukrobbiej]

Hi there. First post here. I am the proud owner of a new Weber Yellowstone Octave Mandolin. It is superb. But...it has a huge neck, and I am wondering whether any of you guys use capos on your OMs/Bouzouki's and if so what you find works. My g7th performance capo (6 string guitar) barely is wide enough to fit. I'm liking at something like the Planet waves tri action trigger one, or one of the Paige click banjo capos.

Any help would be gratefully received!

Best wishes,

Robbie

Edit: I should add that I am finding the depth of the neck the issue with capos, not the width

[John Flynn]

I used to use a Kyser guitar capo that I sawed off and sanded down to the width of my OM neck at the 7th fret. I have also used a Shubb mandolin/banjo capo. Both were fine. The Kyser was a little better because it could be stored on the headstock and placed one the fretboard with one hand. Now I have gone with the Paige Click and I like it better than the other two. I keep it stored on the headstock on the far side of the nut, with just enough tension to hold it there. I can position it with one hand if I have to, but usually I use two hands. It just seems really convenient to me and it works well. I have seen the trigger capos and heard good reviews on them, but never tried one. I don't feel the need to keep looking.

I will say that if your neck is any shallower than mine (front to back), which is about 25mm at the first fret, the Paige may not work. It does hold the strings down on the first fret, but just barely with the screw all the way in. The later frets are fine because the neck gets thicker.

Another piece of advice is to ensure that if your neck is radiused, make sure the capo is also, hopefully at least a similar radius.

[foldedpath]

Welcome to the Cafe!

And congrats on that new Yellowstone Octave. I have one too, a Yellowstone "traditional" F stye, fabulous instrument that I was lucky to find second-hand.

I use a capo when playing at home, or occasionally on gigs. Usually it's at the second fret, sometimes the third. I do it for two reasons. At home, it lets me extend my practice time because my hand doesn't wear out as quickly with the long stretches (my Yellowstone is a 22.5" scale). On gigs, I play in a duo with a guitar player with the OM playing the melody line, and I've found it's not easy to be in a similar pitch range. If I shift up to capo 2, we can still play some of our repertoire with the guitar staying in its normal chording range, and the OM is heard more clearly against the guitar. I don't ever use a capo on the rare occasions when I bring it to an Irish session, because I need to stay in normal GDAE tuning to play with the group. So that's my personal capo use... your mileage may vary.

The capo I use is the same one I use on guitar: a Planet Waves NS. It's low profile, light weight, and I don't need a "quick change" ability. It's designed for a shallow radius and my Yellowstone fingerboard is almost flat, but there is enough "give" in the rubber that it still works fine. I tried a Paige and had more trouble getting it to hold all the strings down evenly. Also the NS goes on and off faster than the Paige.

I do have a Planet Waves NS Tri-Action, but I don't like it as much. I don't need quick-change, and it just looks clunkier on the neck. The regular NS also lets me use it on both my guitar and the OM, instead of having to dial in a fixed tension on the Tri-Action. Again, YMMV, there are a lot of different capos out there that will work.

[ukrobbiej]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll definitely look into the NS capo- sounds ideal. I may even have an very old Victor capo (similar mechanism to the NS, lent to one of my students) that might do the job.

I like the idea of quick change capos, but having recently tried, and been put off the whole idea, a g7th Nashville, I think it will have to be something of a compromise between a capo that doesn't put the tuning out, and is reasonably quick to change, but not instantaneous.

Sounds like the Paige might not be quite up to the job.

I think mine is 22" scale. I always use GDAD tuning, and my repertoire at the moment is Cornish and Breton music with a small folk band, occasionally overdubs on my own guitar instrumentals. I'm looking forward to exploring the instrument more- it is very inspiring to play.

BTW what strings do you guys use on a 22" scale instrument? Anyone know what Weber's ship with?

Robbie

[zoukboy]

I like the idea of quick change capos, but having recently tried, and been put off the whole idea, a g7th Nashville, I think it will have to be something of a compromise between a capo that doesn't put the tuning out, and is reasonably quick to change, but not instantaneous.

I think mine is 22" scale. I always use GDAD tuning, and my repertoire at the moment is Cornish and Breton music with a small folk band, occasionally overdubs on my own guitar instrumentals. I'm looking forward to exploring the instrument more- it is very inspiring to play.

Robbie

Robbie:

Playing in GDAD, I consider a capo to be part of the instrument and have always used one, and I must be able to put in on or take it off or move from one fret to another without stopping playing.

I tried the G7 and hated it.

I used a Dunlop Trigger capo for several years but was not happy with it.

I now use a Planet Waves Dual Action capo and find that it is the best of both worlds: it has the squeeze lever that allow it to be put on and off and moved from fret to fret while playing, but it's also adjustable - which was the downfall of the "trigger" style capos. It also has a hard rubber material that contacts the strings, but since I use an octave pair on the G course I appreciate that the rubber is not too dense and it handles the difference in gauges for both of the strings in that course without tuning distortion or buzzing.

On my Herb Taylor bouzouki I park it between the zero fret and nut so it's always on the instrument ready to go.

Good luck!

[foldedpath]

I like the idea of quick change capos, but having recently tried, and been put off the whole idea, a g7th Nashville, I think it will have to be something of a compromise between a capo that doesn't put the tuning out, and is reasonably quick to change, but not instantaneous.

Strictly speaking, I don't think there is any capo that doesn't put the tuning out, if you're comparing the open string tuning to capo'd tuning. At least I've never found one. I'll throw the Planet Waves NS on my OM when practicing a few tunes at home without re-tuning, because the relative tuning between strings is shifted evenly, and I don't have to worry about being in tune with others. But if I'm recording or playing in a session, I always have to re-tune after putting the capo on.

Once the capo is on, I don't usually have to re-tune when shifting from one capo'd position to another. The string stretch behind the fret is nearly identical at different capo positions. It's open string on the nut vs. any capo'd position that changes tuning enough for me to want to correct it.


BTW what strings do you guys use on a 22" scale instrument? Anyone know what Weber's ship with?

I don't know what they ship with, since I bought mine second-hand, but I've been using D'Addario J80's on my 22.5" scale Weber. The E string pair sounds and feels a littlle wimpy to me, compared to the other strings, so I buy extra individual .013 gauge strings to replace the E's. I'm always in GDAE because I enjoy playing both melody and backing, and I don't have to alter my mandolin fingering (much) for melody lines. If you're using GDAD, the D strings will have even less tension, and you might notice it even more.

Here's the string tension chart for that set (no idea what scale this is measured with). You can see how the E's are not all that well balanced against the others. Using .013's on top brings it more in line with the other strings:

D'Addario J80 Octave Mandolin Strings:

1st E Plain Steel .012 18.5 lbs.
2nd A PB Wound .022 25.8 lbs.
3rd D PB Wound .032 24.3 lbs.
4th G PB Wound .046 22.5 lbs.

[John Flynn]

I've had a different experience with the need to retune. I have a 22.9" scale Mendel OM that I play every week at church and it pretty much stays in tune through multiple capo changes. One thing I do try to do is put the Paige capo very close to on top of the fret, just slightly behind the crown, so the capo is pushing the strings down onto the fret itself and not bending the strings between two frets, toward the fretboard. That seems to help.

As to strings, I think the J80's are fine. I found both the E and the G courses to be a little loose when I first played them. I tried bumping up the E to .013 and the G to .050. That made a difference and I liked it for a while, but more recently I've gone back to the standard J80's and I just play with a lighter touch on both my right and left hands. Now I don't even notice it, although I play OM almost exclusively for rhythm, switching to regular mandolin for melody. If I were playing melody on the OM, I might go back to the .013.

[Barry Wilson]

d'addario just released a new capo that looks interesting. adjustable

[zoukboy]

Strictly speaking, I don't think there is any capo that doesn't put the tuning out, if you're comparing the open string tuning to capo'd tuning. At least I've never found one.

I disagree. Granted, there will be a tendency towards intonation problems with many capos but there are variables with the instrument itself that affect whether or not the instrument will be in tune when using a capo. I have become a firm believer in the zero fret - it facilitates capo use since it makes the open strings a "fretted" note as well, i.e., the difference between and open and a fretted note is less than with many nuts without a zero fret (and the sound of the open string notes is much closer to that of fretted notes). With the capo parked between the zero fret and nut the tension of the capo is always on the strings even when it is not in use. It may not be for everyone but it works very well for me.

The other crucial factor is how well the bridge/saddle is compensated. That becomes more apparent when capoing. I can capo my Herb Taylor at the 12th fret and if I have the tension on the capo right it doesn't distort at all.

So I think there is a lot to be gained if one considers capo use a part of the technology of the instrument rather an as a one-size-fits-all add-on accessory. YMMV.

Cheers,

[foldedpath]

I disagree. Granted, there will be a tendency towards intonation problems with many capos but there are variables with the instrument itself that affect whether or not the instrument will be in tune when using a capo. I have become a firm believer in the zero fret - it facilitates capo use since it makes the open strings a "fretted" note as well, i.e., the difference between and open and a fretted note is less than with many nuts without a zero fret (and the sound of the open string notes is much closer to that of fretted notes). With the capo parked between the zero fret and nut the tension of the capo is always on the strings even when it is not in use. It may not be for everyone but it works very well for me.

I do have one instrument with a zero fret -- a Harvey Leach baritone acoustic guitar. He's a big believer in them. I haven't played it enough to find out if what some people consider the downside is true, which is that string wear on the zero fret over the years will eventually require replacement, and it's easier to replace a nut than a fret. That may be an armchair theory objection though. It does play very nicely in first position with that zero fret, and it's a long-scale beast (27" scale).

At any rate, the OP has a Weber like mine without a zero fret, so I think my opinion on capo effect on tuning is still valid for that situation, if not universally for those OM owners with zero frets.
;)

[ukrobbiej]

With regard to the tuning issue, I suspect that the action might be another variable. On my guitars I find a higher action equates to more variation in tuning at different fret positions. The Weber does have quite a high action, which I suspect I might take down a little bit more as I begin to get to know her a bit more.

Just a little more info on my Weber: Its an oval hole model (does this make it an A4? Bit confused about mandolin nomencalture!)
Beautiful sunburst finish; Maple back sides and neck. Sounds seriously nice- my only previous experience was a flat top Tobin, which was bought by anothert member of the forum. Both very different instruments, but this one suits what I want to do with it brilliantly. Since moving the Tobin on, it wasn't origanlly my intention to replace it, but in my folk band I find playing acoustic guitar (in Dadgad) to be a bit muddy, with a bass player and tombonist all competing for the same sonic territory at times. Decided I had to get myself another OM.

I take it I should be looking at guitar sized capos and avoid the banjo/ mandolin ones?

Thanks again for all the advice- very much appreciated, and this is a very friendly place :)

Robbie

[zoukboy]

I take it I should be looking at guitar sized capos and avoid the banjo/ mandolin ones?

Thanks again for all the advice- very much appreciated, and this is a very friendly place :)

Robbie

I think it depends on the width of your instrument's neck. Some narrower bouzoukis/OMs do fine with a banjo width capo. I would encourage you to experiment and try as many as you can get your hands on.

[zoukboy]

I do have one instrument with a zero fret -- a Harvey Leach baritone acoustic guitar. He's a big believer in them. I haven't played it enough to find out if what some people consider the downside is true, which is that string wear on the zero fret over the years will eventually require replacement, and it's easier to replace a nut than a fret. That may be an armchair theory objection though. It does play very nicely in first position with that zero fret, and it's a long-scale beast (27" scale).

That sounds like an "armchair theory" to me. I have noticed no wear on the zero fret at all. Think about it - the strings don't move against the zero fret. Have you ever heard of a nut wearing out in the way this theory claims a zero fret will?

FWIW, zero frets got a bad rap in this country because of their use on cheap imported instruments as a cost-saving measure (if the nut does not determine action height, only string spacing, they are much easier and quicker to fit).

In addition to a zero fret's affect on action I find I really like that the tone of open notes is more similar to fretted ones. I doubt I'll ever get another custom instrument without one. The capoing advantages of the zero fret was something I hadn't quite anticipated but noticed in practice.


At any rate, the OP has a Weber like mine without a zero fret, so I think my opinion on capo effect on tuning is still valid for that situation, if not universally for those OM owners with zero frets.
;)

Fair enough! ;-)

[foldedpath]

A banjo-sized capo will probably work for the lower frets, depending on manufacturer, but you may run into trouble on the higher frets. Before I switched to the Planet Waves NS, I used a Paige banjo-sized capo on my Weber and it works okay up to about the 5th fret. Then it starts to get sketchy around the 7th fret as the neck gets wider.

A guitar-sized capo will let up move up higher without problems, but you'll have a little more overhang on the lower frets. So it's a trade-off. I use the guitar-sized Planet Waves NS because I don't mind the overhang, and I can use the same capo on guitar.

[ddawson2010]

All of our NS capo's have an adjustable jaw on them. There is a dial that you can adjust, that compresses or releases tension on the spring. The intent is for you to allow the needed tension on your strings, relative to the neck type and string gauge you use. I have Jumbo Frets on a J200 that when i play above the 3rd fret with a capo, i'm a semi-tone sharp. With the NS, i can back off the tension and the strings slide back to pitch.

[luthierseye]

I love Shubb capos! There's none better.

[JeffD]

I love Shubb capos! There's none better.

Those are my preference as well. Their only disadvantage is that you can't proudly display them on your headstock when not in use, like you can the Kyser.

Maybe a Kyser just for show. :)

[Mike Anderson]

I'm now using the Planet Waves Tri-Action and loving it - so light, which is pretty valuable on an instrument with such a long neck.

And this man (http://www.ciorras.com/wp-content/uploads/5855950503_5ee9884660_o3.jpg) seems to favour the good old Dunlop elastic...:)

[John Flynn]

For those of you who don't know about it, anyone who is interested in capos will enjoy an online visit to the Sterner Capo Museum:

http://www.sternercapo.se/Capomuseum/

[ukrobbiej]

Just to update everyone, I bought myself a beautiful silver coloured Planet waves ns capo, and it fits perfectly. What a brilliant piece of kit.

Also treated my new baby to a wonderful souldier strap. Again this shows impeccable design and craftsmanship. I love the fact it's made of recycled seat belts, and the embroidered design is simply wonderful. My weber is very happy I think!

Thanks for all the advice,

Robbie

[luthierseye]

"Also treated my new baby to a wonderful shoulder strap."

Speaking of straps, I recently got a Lakota Bison leather strap for mandolin & mandola. Super soft and durable leather. I highly recommend them; but they ain't cheap.

[Mandobart]

With regard to the tuning issue, I suspect that the action might be another variable. On my guitars I find a higher action equates to more variation in tuning at different fret positions. Robbie

This is true capo or no. Take any instrument with modern large frets, and play one of the lighter gage strings at any fret. Press down just enough to get a nice clean tone. The string is in solid contact with the fret at this point, but not the fretboard. Now keep pressing down until the string is in contact with the fretboard. Guess what, now the note is sharp. The same thing happens with a capo that mashes the strings all the way down to the fretboard. If you get an adjustable capo that puts out just enough force on each string to contact the fret, there'll be no tuning problem. I haven't found that capo yet.

[Barry Wilson]

I was looking for my capo today, guess I left it somewhere. I so rarely use one. but I need one for sunday as the lady I am rehearsing with uses one a lot... off to the music store tomorrow... I am going to check a few of the ones mentioned here. I just had a cheap non adjusting one...

[zoukboy]

The same thing happens with a capo that mashes the strings all the way down to the fretboard. If you get an adjustable capo that puts out just enough force on each string to contact the fret, there'll be no tuning problem. I haven't found that capo yet.

That capo is the Planet Waves Tri Action capo:

http://www.planetwaves.com/publish/pwProductDetail.aspx?ActiveID=4115&productid=613&productname=NS_Tri_Action_Capo_Silver&sid=d7674265-90dc-45b4-8760-1675eddf5dd8

:)

[Dave C09]

I appreciate all the info / opinions..

My music partner has a knack for singing in keys that are much easier to play in capo'd, so I've been using one (Shubb) more these days. The Shubb works well in terms of being pressure adjustable (to avoid the pitch-shift) but I'm finding it really easy to pop it off by hitting the locking bar when chording in 1st position.

I think I'll try the NS Drop Tune capo (which is supposed to be good for mando & has a curved face)
http://www.planetwaves.com/pwProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=4115&productid=506&productname=NS_Trio_Capo

[rawdata01]

I use custom made capo by Phil Elliott on my guitar, which has a rather firm tube and follows the radius of my strings exactly. The top of the pressed down strings are a different radius than the fretboard. The capo "tightning saddle" is made off axis to follow the strings, because of the difference between the thin and the heavier strings. All this reduced the amount of detuning as much as possible. At a price though. ;)