Aged Tonewood mandolins?

[sgrexa]

I apologize if this has been discussed already, but Dana Bourgeois has been offering "aged tone" red spruce on his guitars. I'm sure there is more to it, but it basically sounds like the spruce is cooked at low temperature AKA "thermo curing" to simulate old wood. Are any mandolin builders able to get this treated spruce or using a similar process?

http://www.pantheonguitars.com/guitars/guitars_aged%20tone%20series_story.htm

"Our new Aged Tone tops are treated with a unique curing process. The commercial version of this process, known as, “thermo curing”, “wood torrefaction” or “roasting”, was developed in Finland to enhance durability and appearance of such products as siding, decking, and outdoor furniture. Commercial processing typically uses higher curing temperatures to maximize stability and rot resistance. Higher temperatures, however, can also sacrifice structural integrity.

The process used to cure our Adirondack tops is a highly controlled, low-temperature variation of the basic commercial treatment. During processing, water, sugars, and resins are cooked off, leaving behind cellulose and lignum--the “glue” that binds cellulosic fibers together. Once processed, mass and weight are reduced, absolute stiffness is increased and internal damping is decreased; stiffness-to-weight ratio and Velocity of Sound (the rate at which vibration transmits through solid material) are dramatically increased.

Our observations concur with industry research data, which reports increased stiffness at lower curing temperatures. It’s thought by at least one expert that low-temperature curing optimizes the distribution of lignum throughout the cellulosic structure, while higher temperatures break lignum down. The trick is to find the temperature and curing schedule that optimizes Velocity of Sound.

Like naturally cured spruce, Aged Tone tops are darker in color, opaque vs. translucent, highly stable when exposed to changes in humidity, and have a sweet, woody smell. These same changes naturally occur in spruce tonewoods after many decades of exposure to oxygen, UV radiation and other environmental elements."

[sunburst]

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?97560-Tempered-Wood&highlight=torrefaction

[Steve Ostrander]

"Our new Aged Tone tops are treated with a unique curing process.

Is this really "aging"? I'm OK with "curing" but to me, "Aged" implies that it's old. 'Course, all tonewood is aged, just some more than others....

[Joe Mendel]

I have played a several of the new Aged Tonewood guitars from Bourgeois, all have been very, very good sounding guitars. Two are neck & neck for the what I consider the best sounding guitars I have ever heard or played, by far. Dana builds incredible guitars anyway, I don't know how much the torrified wood adds to the sound, but dang they do sound great.
It would be very interesting for one the of the great mandolin builders to try some using it.

[sgrexa]

Thanks for the link John. I am sure some brave soul will venture to carve a mandolin top from this stuff and report the results. I realize the physical stresses are much greater on a mandolin than guitar top, so any loss of strength is a very real concern. Finishing this wood also seems to be problematic, another long and short term concern. I am sure the weight differences on a mandolin top would be very small, but that is certainly a benefit. The lighter the better IMO.

Sean

[John Soper]

Sounds like "New Age-ing" to me! ;)

Over the years there has been plenty of talk about similar baking processes in some of the luthier's forums. I have always been impressed with Dana's guitars- pre- and post- Tonewood... hard to tell that the Tonewoood is THE thing that makes the newer guitars sound so good.

[guitarpath]

Huss & Dalton are also using this torrefaction (thermo-curing) process on some of their guitars. I have yet to play one, but I have heard very positive reviews on them.

[almeriastrings]

Real aged stuff is around if you look hard enough. Ken (Silverangel) has used reclaimed wood for tops from old buildings and poles, I believe, and I once found some wonderful old Cuban mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) in a pile of old school-room desks and tables that the construction guys demolishing the building were about to burn! Got the lot for the price of a few beers. They even helped me load the truck :grin:

[Mandobar]

Huss & Dalton are also using this torrefaction (thermo-curing) process on some of their guitars. I have yet to play one, but I have heard very positive reviews on them.

I played several Bourgeois' and came home with the Huss and Dalton, which has no up charge. Bourgeois states they have a "special finish", but the H&D is just their guitar with the "cooked top".

As for using it on mandolins, I am not so sure it would be a good idea. You are changing the properties of the wood, and how that would affect the carving process is anyone's guess.

Just an FYI, the tops used by H&D are from the same source (read as the same place/person) who supplies the tops to Bourgeois.

[billhay4]

All wood is aged in the sense that good tonewood only comes from older trees. You don't get good tonewood from young trees. I have yet to see anything that convinces me that doing anything besides properly drying the wood improves the sound at all. Looks, maybe, but not sound. I'd like to see some scientific evidence.
As for older instruments sounding better, that's another matter and not directly related to the age of the wood.
Bloviation by
Bill

[sunburst]

...You don't get good tonewood from young trees...

Why not? This tree wasn't over 20 years old when it was bulldozed down. The wood had seasoned 4 or 5 years when I started the mandolin.

[OldGus]

As for older instruments sounding better, that's another matter and not directly related to the age of the wood.


How could they not be directly related? How would an instrument age without the wood it's made from also aging? I agree that there are other factors at play but who to say there couldn't be other factors that affect a board or log as it ages, before it is used, such as vibration, mineral baths, sinking to the bottom of a lake, etc. I agree that vibration usually happens a lot more once an instrument is assembled but why would it not affect the wood as a board before it is assembled?

[foldedpath]

One problem, from a customer's perspective, with a high-end luthier offering special tonewoods is that you can't always know if a great result is due to the wood used, or just the fact that it was built by a very good luthier in the first place. It's kinda hard to separate those two things, after an instrument arrives in the customer's hands.

When I got my Santa Cruz guitar years ago, I ordered it through Steve Swan's shop. He had a private stash of spruce that was supposedly cut, dried, and stored for 30 years. It was offered as an upcharge over the standard SCGC top wood, along with some nice flamey koa for the back and sides. The guitar turned out amazingly well, and it's still my main acoustic guitar. How much of that is the "aged" wood, and how much is just the way Richard Hoover & Co. build their guitars? The heck if I know!

[OldGus]

You experience is a potential positive for the aged wood perspective but certainly not a negative for it and I've had a similar experience myself to further indicate that it just *might* be the case. Great materials used by a great craftsman is a great way to go.

[ides1056]

The brother of a friend plays violin with the BSO. His violin has an aged top, but as I understand it, this was accomplished with a fungus which reduced the thickness of the cell wall in the wood to mimic the sound of very old violins like Strads, etc.

[billhay4]

I will clarify my remarks a bit.
Mandolin tops are almost always made of old wood. So are backs. The fact that a few instruments have been made out of younger wood for the backs does not belie this. The reason the tops are old is that old growth wood produces the dense grains that most builders prefer. The reason backs and sides are mostly older trees is that they often produce the more interesting grains and larger sizes needed for a good piece of instrument wood.
When an instrument is constructed, so many variables then come into play that it is impossible to identify the age of the wood as the primary factor in any change or development of that instrument's sound. Sure, the wood ages with the instrument, but try isolating this factor in any study.
Frankly, I feel all of these "aging" processes for wood are mostly marketing ploys and have very little scientific basis. Sure, there may be science as to how they change the structure of the wood itself, but any science as to their effect on an instrument is either missing or so complex to do that it will never be conclusive.
Good luthiers make good instruments, not faddish wood modification processes.
Bill