2 point mandolins-a few questions

[darylcrisp]

okay, so I'm really new to all this mandolin world, but I find the artistry and depth to be fascinating. Coming to this at an older age than many, my time is limited. As such, I'm looking for more than just tone. I want ease of playability first, then the sound is next, and third is how it looks. But I am highly influenced at this stage of my life by aesthetics. Not so much as in bling, but beauty born of an organic nature.

On to my question that's probably been asked a thousand times on this forum.

I am drawn to two point designs. I've never held one so I've never played one. Have not yet found a soundclip(someone direct me if you know where some are).
I have saw a few two point mandolins for sale in the classifieds and they always stop me. I always check them out, go further and try to dig thru the computer world of links that I find.
As of recent findings, the two that really impress my eyes are:
Clark two point mandolins
Weber Big Horn

Is there any tonal quality that is enhanced by a two point design or is it merely an artistic quality?
If its only artistic, then is the two point more associated with an A shape?

Is there a nice book out there that shows/discusses the development and history of the mandolin that any of you recommend?

thanks as always
d

[sunburst]

Points and scrolls are ornaments. There is no sound difference attributable to a mandolin being "A"-shaped, having points or having points and scrolls. If the aesthetics of 2-point designs appeals to you strongly, go ahead and get a 2-point with a clear conscience, you're making no compromise on sound or playability. Aesthetics are as important as we make them, and I agree that a good design and good execution of the design have a significant importance when it comes to items we own, especially items expressly for the purpose of bringing joy to ourselves and others, like musical instruments. It's part of the joy!

[sgrexa]

Hi Daryl,

The Clark and Weber mandolins you mention are certainly beautiful. If you are interested in playability first, you must try a Phoenix by Rolphe Gerhart. I have played numerous examples over the years and they all played and sounded very, very good. Definitely one of the best and very consistent.

Sean

[Steve Sorensen]

Daryl,

To my mind, the two-point style is a modern reference to electric guitars, a sexy way to infer the curves of the waist of guitar-style instruments, and way to streamline the Victorian scroll of the F-style mandolins.

Depending on how the internal blocking is done, there is some slight addition of airspace inside the instrument compared to an A-Style and slight decrease compared to an F-style. If you look closely, you will also see that different builders change the curves of the "waist" -- particularly on asymmetrical styles.

Here is a nice video demo of a Sprite Two-Point from The Mandolin Store last year --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9naxFi1l7HA

I LOVE building this style instrument because, I feel, it conveys the grace and style of the mandolin beyond the late-Victorian aesthetic of the early 1900s (as seen in the Gibson-inspired F-s and A-s).

Steve

[nickster60]

I love 2 points also. My Eastman isn't as good as my Weber but it still pretty decent.

[allenhopkins]

...is it merely an artistic quality?

Yes.


If it's only artistic, then is the two point more associated with an A shape?...

The "A shape" is the basic profile of the carved-top mandolin, based largely on Gibson's early A-models. Points, scrolls and other furbelows were added to the rims of instruments basically to "tart them up" for esthetic purposes. The two-point was one of the more successful designs, though nowhere near the scroll-and-points popularity of Gibson's F-models.

When I had a custom-built five-course made for me last year, I specified a two-point shape, because (a) I didn't have one, and (b) I thought it was a graceful, ornamented-yet-understated compromise between the basic "A" and the ornate "F."

[JeffD]

In an F style some refer to two points and three points.

Two point F style is what you commonly see, with the scroll and two points on the other side, one down below and one up near the neck. There was a three point F style, (which I think is exceedingly lovely), which is basically the same with the addition of another point just below the scroll.


All aesthetics, and perhaps in some cases some ergonomics, but no impact on sound.

[darylcrisp]

Daryl,

To my mind, the two-point style is a modern reference to electric guitars, a sexy way to infer the curves of the waist of guitar-style instruments, and way to streamline the Victorian scroll of the F-style mandolins.

Depending on how the internal blocking is done, there is some slight addition of airspace inside the instrument compared to an A-Style and slight decrease compared to an F-style. If you look closely, you will also see that different builders change the curves of the "waist" -- particularly on asymmetrical styles.

Here is a nice video demo of a Sprite Two-Point from The Mandolin Store last year --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9naxFi1l7HA

I LOVE building this style instrument because, I feel, it conveys the grace and style of the mandolin beyond the late-Victorian aesthetic of the early 1900s (as seen in the Gibson-inspired F-s and A-s).

Steve

oh no! Now I have one more to add to the list!!
Kidding aside, thanks for the reply Steve, that sounds and looks killer. That's what I'm talking about. And I really like those guys at TMS.
Sounds great.
d

[darylcrisp]

Yes.



The "A shape" is the basic profile of the carved-top mandolin, based largely on Gibson's early A-models. Points, scrolls and other furbelows were added to the rims of instruments basically to "tart them up" for esthetic purposes. The two-point was one of the more successful designs, though nowhere near the scroll-and-points popularity of Gibson's F-models.

When I had a custom-built five-course made for me last year, I specified a two-point shape, because (a) I didn't have one, and (b) I thought it was a graceful, ornamented-yet-understated compromise between the basic "A" and the ornate "F."

Allen
what does "five-course" mean?
and thanks for your reply
d

[dcoventry]

One of these will do you nicely.

[billhay4]

I played Austin's 2 point at Wintergrass yesterday. It's a strong instrument.
Bill

[JeffD]

Five course means ten strings - in five unison pairs. EADGC often.

[JRcohan]

I don't know the brand or serial number but I love my two-point.. Here is a video of it in action.


http://youtu.be/nQcFV3t9CdM

[pheffernan]

If you are interested in playability first, you must try a Phoenix by Rolphe Gerhart.

There are two in the Classifieds, here http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/71659 and here http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/73701, the latter being fatt-dad's former instrument I believe.

[JeffD]

I like the symmetry of the two point design. Just a nice look.

[sunburst]

I like the asymmetry of the two point design.
115088

[Bluejay]

Love the 2point. If I was gonna get one, I would get a Sorensen Sprite. The look is just too cool. I hear they sound great too.

[Magnus Geijer]

As several people have said already, there shouldn't be any noticeable difference in sound between a 2-pointer and the others, all other things being equal, but I think part of what's interesting about the 2-points are that they're often NOT equal in all other things. The Phoenix is a good example of a design that doesn't follow the Gibson patterns. If you're building an A, or an F especially, I think there's a general expectation of it being as close as possible to a Loar. With the 2-points, you can go away from that without people calling you a heretic and throwing rocks.

[JGWoods]

http://s544.photobucket.com/user/jgwoods1/media/Instruments/Mandolins/Web2pointFronts2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8

[darylcrisp]

http://s544.photobucket.com/user/jgwoods1/media/Instruments/Mandolins/Web2pointFronts2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8

thanks! nice pics-I went thru them all
d

[JeffD]

I like the asymmetry of the two point design.
115088

Prettiest mandolin in the world IMO. :)

[Wolfmanbob]

There's actually a group devoted to two pointers on this site. There are many two pointer lovers around.

[Chip Booth]

The "Chip Booth" model by Lawrence Smart. I love 2 points!

115097 115096 115098

And a couple of Smart mandolas:

115099 115100 115101

[darylcrisp]

One of these will do you nicely.

that just looks amazing
thanks for posting
d

[darylcrisp]

There's actually a group devoted to two pointers on this site. There are many two pointer lovers around.

I didn't know that-thank you so much
uh, direct me, i'll look but show me too
thanks
d

[darylcrisp]

The "Chip Booth" model by Lawrence Smart. I love 2 points!

115097 115096 115098

And a couple of Smart mandolas:

115099 115100 115101

wow, Chip, those are beautiful!
I love a black top also, always wanted a black guitar, never have got that so this is definitely of interest.
d

[Grommet]

I love the asymetrical 2-pointers like Steve's Sprite above. Also check out Nugget, Bussman, and Voight models. Listen to clips of Don Stirenburg playing his Nugget 2 point!

Scott

[Wolfmanbob]

I didn't know that-thank you so much
uh, direct me, i'll look but show me too
thanks
d
Here you go!
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=89

[Beanzy]

Phil Davidson has been producing some interesting 2 point mandolins
115119115120
115121115122

[Tom Sanderson]

115123115124
My first Nugget (#147) was a 2 point. I loved it. I'm sorry that I sold it, just HAD to have an F5

[mandoswing]

Hello,
I have a Steve Sorensen Sprite Two points, it's a very beautiful and a great sounding mandolin. Easy to play and loud. Very good work.
Best regards from France

[oldwave maker]

Rb_6Y2W_5CcTransylvanian spruce and quilted maple Old Wave 2 point, one of many I made since stealing, er, tracing the shape of Steve Batts 1991 stealth nugget onto a grocery sack at midnight by the light of a minimag on a picnic table in Town Park at the Telluride bg fest decades ago........

[Larry S Sherman]

I love the 2-point design, both F-Hole (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?66432-Stiver-mandolins&p=1261331&viewfull=1#post1261331) and Oval Hole (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?51259-My-Green-Ludewig-2-Point).

Two F-styles by the same maker using the same woods can sound completely different based on how they are designed and carved. A-style, F-style, 2-point, three-point, etc makes less difference than the luthier's intent, IMO.

Larry

[Jesse Harmon]

Every time I convince myself to downsize on instruments and just have one each of what I am really using I stumble across a thread like this. The Davidson and the Old Wave oval set me all the way back to looking for a MAS 12 step program.

[Cheryl Watson]

Wecome to the crazy but intoxicating world of mandolins, Daryl! You'll have to figure out first, if you are looking for an oval-hole two-point or an f-hole two-point. And just like all mandolins, some two-points are drier sounding and others have more overtones and lushness.

[JimKo]

That Old Wave 515 is an outstanding sounding mando. Anybody know how it has matured since the demo clip? Thanks Jim

[CES]

I like the asymmetry of the two point design.
115088

Amen, brother!

[ollaimh]

the nicest mandolin have ever played was a two point by oliver apitius. it was at the 12th fret in Toronto for just five grand. didn't have the money at the time. very beautifull symmetrical two pointed with a gold finial on the top of the head stock.

of course apitius mandolins are all among the best out there.

[MANNDOLINS]

2 points only for me!
http://www.manndolins.com/prod02.htm