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View Full Version : Condenser mics on stage- what should I know?



SincereCorgi
Feb-18-2014, 3:33pm
My trio has a pretty simple set-up, four mics (two each for mandolin and guitar) plugged into a PA and the bass player playing through his own amp with some kind of upright bass pickup. It still takes forever to set everything up and doesn't sound as natural as I would like.

How workable are live single-condenser-mic setups? What do I need to know about it? How close do you have to crowd in, and would the bass player be able to use the same mic?

stevedenver
Feb-18-2014, 6:42pm
we use a single condenser-period (although there has been talk of using two now that we are five folks!)

the whole point is to make life easy, and us more 'acoustic' BG, and,
less crap to carry. That's why I play mando instead of my old rock guitar days, with a car full of crap, just for me.

sometimes, it is necessary to have more mics for outside and larger venues to push the voices and instruments.
obviously, if it gets too big, or you want really top sound you need individual mics,

but we do well with a single mic for up to 150 folks, in a dead room. In a live room, things can get a little....hard to hear, on both sides of the mic.

a single works well, but
1 you have to get a traffic pattern established for moving in and away-no eyes in the back of the head-for us this means whoever has the mic comes straight in from behind, and whoever is leaving moves to the side and angles back

2 you need to crowd in tight for vocals, and if someone is a powerhouse and another a tiny voice, you will need someone to help you get that balanced volume wise
3 you need to shove you instrument up close for the solos-especially guitar

bass player should be able to use the same mic, provided he has a long cord, and the above crowd in is feasible

since the bass player shouldn't be rock loud, its unlikely the condensor would catch the bass amp sounds, and if so, you can move the amp slightly to the side and youll be fine

simple is, well..... mostly good, and a lot less schlepping, and cords all over the stage.

Its great to have individual voice and instrument mics.

With one mic and a PA, once youre dialed in, its 'old time radio', and
crowding in not only looks cool, but, it is great for hearing the others for a tight harmony.

gotta keep that headstock scroll safe though- I stand so its always on the outside and the headstock points to the audience-

SincereCorgi
Feb-19-2014, 2:59am
Thanks, Steve, that's exactly the kind of stuff I was curious about and it's very nice of you to write such a thorough response. I'm gonna point the guys to your post and see what they think.

almeriastrings
Feb-19-2014, 5:59am
The other practical point to make is that you may need to rethink your monitoring - because this method works best with IEM (In Ear Monitors - as used by the 'big names'), or no monitoring at all. Regular 'wedge' type stage monitors can be a nightmare, depending on the venue. You have to learn to work at much reduced stage volumes. High stage sound levels and this technique are a no-go area. Even then, you may need to insert an adaptive feedback killer unit (such as a Sabine) before the power amp. It can buy you a few more dB. Defeating feedback is the number one issue with this type of arrangement, and you need to use every trick in the book - speaker placement, mic pickup pattern, performance techniques, EQ and pretty much "the works". Even then, in some situations, it can be near unworkable, so pays to have a 'plan B'.

MikeEdgerton
Feb-19-2014, 6:27am
Unless you go to great lengths forget monitors but there are real advantages. I was using one condenser for each member. Set right it got the instrument and the voice and I was stringing 5 mics not 10. When we did a single mic then we had to rehearse the dance. The in and out and who gets to the sweet spot on the mic when. I suggest you figure out the distance for your single mic then get a rug and paint a circle on it the size of the mic pattern. Put the mic in the middle of the circle and practice stepping in and out. It's not impossible but it takes some getting used to.

Charlieshafer
Feb-19-2014, 6:36am
Steve pretty much summed everything up; it's more incumbent on you three to know how to really use a mic and "shade" yourselves, which essentially means controlling volume through distance from the microphone. Monitors shouldn't be a problem, as if you're all so close, you won't be using them. That's an order. You can hear each other when you do the single mic thing, so no need for the extra stage noise. In-ears are fine, but if you want a simple stage set-up, those are anything but simple. Just practice how you'll be performing on stage and you'll be fine.

UsuallyPickin
Feb-19-2014, 9:08am
Yes the above comments covered this one. I like the idea of a marked rug or area on the floor to help get used to the spaces involved. The McCoury Boys w/ Jason Carter and Alan Bartram do the mic dance well check them out on YouTube.... when they play with Del McCoury they still do the mic dance but Daddy Del has his own guitar mic. I have always like the "air mix " tone........ R/

Andy Miller
Feb-19-2014, 9:01pm
Even then, in some situations, it can be near unworkable, so pays to have a 'plan B'.

Amen. I love being able to use a single LDC for vocals and a couple of dynamics or SDC's on the sides for soloists, it's my favorite setup. But there are plenty of situations out there where it's hard to make it work - lots of those reasons have already been mentioned. The most bulletproof Plan B for me is dynamics for each vocalist and DI's for each instrument, it means at least ten channels. I don't really like the effect the DI's seem to have on my band's dynamic range or instrument sounds, but given a choice of that challenge or a night of feedback and not being able to hear, I'll take the former.

rockies
Feb-19-2014, 9:52pm
One thing I notice a lot is bands using condenser (and dynamic) microphones is NOT dealing with monitor placement if using them. The monitors are usually placed facing directly back into the face of the instruments in front of the mike(s). By placing the monitors to the side turned sideways especially to the left side facing in toward the headstocks of the instruments and also to the null points of most microphone sensitivity patterns you can increase the pa gain by significant db before facing feedback. Experiment with the monitor placement and direction and you will be amazed by the difference.
Dave

Mandoplumb
Feb-20-2014, 10:18pm
I have been lurking for some time and joined about two weeks ago. I have not posted before because I didn't think I had any thing to offer, but this thread is one I have some experience with. I don't know what music you are playing or where you are playing it but I play in a Bluegrass Gospel band and we tried the one condenser mic approach. Like you I didn't like the sound. I then tried a ribbon mike and loved it. It takes some getting used to,to get it set right, but once you get the hang of it it's apiece of cake to set up, is more forgiving to use, and is totally ONE mic. I don't even mic the bass. It works great in about any size room but there can't be a lot of audience noise. If it sounds like it will work for you and you need any advice let me know. Love this form and have got a lot of information just lurking

almeriastrings
Feb-21-2014, 12:31am
Ribbon mics were of course what those 'classic' bands used frequently in this context..... they have excellent side-to-side rejection, for one thing. They will pick up a lot of audience noise from the rear, however, as you say. Possibly audiences were quieter and better behaved in those days :) They did not use LD condenser mics. You do see the occasional Shure 55SH (dynamic, 'Elvis' mic) used too.

Peter Coronado
Feb-21-2014, 12:43am
Thanks SincereCorgi for starting this topic. Mandoplumb raised the issue of audience noise. I was recently advised against the LDC setup for a gig where the audience was expected to be noisy. The advice was if you are playing in a concert setting and have some separation from the audience, ideally up on a stage, it works great. You need some isolation from the audience noise. I took the advice and yes the audience was noisy.

Anyone have experience or advice about when to use an LDC setup?

almeriastrings
Feb-21-2014, 1:37am
In short.. they work best in very large, open, non-reflective environments. Large venues or acoustically 'dead' smaller ones. You essentially have a number of directional issues to consider:

1) Side-Side ambient pickup (direct/reflected)
2) Front pickup (your band, but also reflections from the stage floor and rear wall, even ceiling in some cases)
3) Rear node performance (direct from FOH/Monitor bleed, audience noise, and indirect reflections)

Reflections are a big issue and quite complex. They not only contribute to feedback potential, but also strongly 'color' the sound.

The more you can eliminate reflections, the better. Hard stage surfaces are bad news in this respect. A carpet not only look good but makes a very big difference to the acoustics. Just for an experiment, I took one of our studio SE Reflexion Filters (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Reflexion)along to a very difficult live venue and played around with it in conjunction with a Shure KSM44. The sonic difference was massive - but unfortunately, from a visual perspective, unusable for performance. A tighter, cleaner sound (fewer out-of-phase reflections muddying things up) and several dB more gain before feedback.

Not viable for performance, but clearly demonstrates the problem. Carpeted stage... damped backdrop.... all good.

Concrete cavern... all bad.

Mark Wilson
Feb-21-2014, 12:58pm
What do I need to know about it?You'll need 48V phantom power enabled for the condensor mike. Supplied from the sound board or separate preamp. And ensure that dynamic mics aren't accidentally plugged in where the phantom power is hot.

foldedpath
Feb-21-2014, 1:41pm
You'll need 48V phantom power enabled for the condensor mike. Supplied from the sound board or separate preamp. And ensure that dynamic mics aren't accidentally plugged in where the phantom power is hot.

That last part isn't a problem. Dynamic mics like a SM57 or SM58 will simply ignore phantom power, which is why compact mixers often have "all or nothing" 48v across all channels, instead of a per-channel switch. Ribbon mics are technically dynamic, and you do have to be more careful with those, although it's mainly just insuring that you're using a properly wired XLR cable.

One other thing: Don't plug a condenser mic into a "hot" 48v channel, especially if the main speakers are live. It won't hurt the mic (although long-term shorting of the pins is not healthy), but you'll get a loud "POP!" through the speakers if they're live. Always turn 48v phantom power off at the mixer or amp, before plugging in a condenser mic. Then turn it on. Do the reverse when packing up after the show, 48v off first, then unplug the mic.

Mark Wilson
Feb-21-2014, 3:07pm
Good to know. I've been careful not to, cause I read it somewhere. Probably on the internet :)

Charlieshafer
Feb-21-2014, 5:57pm
You can sometimes, but not always, get a great result by going a much more expensive route, using a stereo pair of smaller-diaghram mics which are more cardioid in pattern. We played around with this Telefunken (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AR70/) that was on loan from a friendly studio, and mounted on it's side, with one of the stereo sides aiming towards the vocals, the other down towards the instruments. Worked surprisingly well, and I'd try it again, but wouldn't go so far as to say I'd spend the money on it for that use. It would be a very expensive experiment if it failed for you...

SincereCorgi
Feb-25-2014, 11:47am
You can sometimes, but not always, get a great result by going a much more expensive route, using a stereo pair of smaller-diaghram mics which are more cardioid in pattern. We played around with this Telefunken (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AR70/) that was on loan from a friendly studio, and mounted on it's side, with one of the stereo sides aiming towards the vocals, the other down towards the instruments. Worked surprisingly well, and I'd try it again, but wouldn't go so far as to say I'd spend the money on it for that use. It would be a very expensive experiment if it failed for you...

I heard Modern Mandolin Quartet do this the other night with a pair of Neumann KM84s in the arrangement you describe and it sounded extremely good and natural. I doubt whether I have $3K in the couch cushions though.

Charlieshafer
Feb-26-2014, 6:59am
I heard Modern Mandolin Quartet do this the other night with a pair of Neumann KM84s in the arrangement you describe and it sounded extremely good and natural. I doubt whether I have $3K in the couch cushions though.

And that's the problem! Good stuff does cost a ton of money. The saddest lesson in music is that whatever you spent on your instrument, you need to spend at least that amount in sound equipment to make sure your mandolin sounds like what it costs. Best way to sound good, though, is still practicing without monitors.

SincereCorgi
Mar-30-2014, 4:55pm
Hey all, just updating this thread because we borrowed a condenser mic and did a show with it last night: it went great. It sounded better and it was much more comfortable, too, being able to move around a little and lean in on harmonies and so forth. If anybody out there is on the fence, I would give it a try.

dang
Mar-31-2014, 5:06am
Amen. I love being able to use a single LDC for vocals and a couple of dynamics or SDC's on the sides for soloists, it's my favorite setup. But there are plenty of situations out there where it's hard to make it work - lots of those reasons have already been mentioned. The most bulletproof Plan B for me is dynamics for each vocalist and DI's for each instrument, it means at least ten channels. I don't really like the effect the DI's seem to have on my band's dynamic range or instrument sounds, but given a choice of that challenge or a night of feedback and not being able to hear, I'll take the former.

I completely agree. Single mics are great until they don't work.

dang
Mar-31-2014, 5:09am
One thing I notice a lot is bands using condenser (and dynamic) microphones is NOT dealing with monitor placement if using them. The monitors are usually placed facing directly back into the face of the instruments in front of the mike(s). By placing the monitors to the side turned sideways especially to the left side facing in toward the headstocks of the instruments and also to the null points of most microphone sensitivity patterns you can increase the pa gain by significant db before facing feedback. Experiment with the monitor placement and direction and you will be amazed by the difference.
Dave

Are those the "rejection nodes (http://www.ratsound.com/2009_12_02_polars.htm)" and specific to the pattern of your condenser?

neil argonaut
Mar-31-2014, 5:40am
Just remember NOT to use phantom power if you are using a ribbon mic.

mandroid
Mar-31-2014, 5:13pm
02... local band uses 2 LD AKG on the same stand, Cardioid side by patterns array

to reduce head banging for harmony singing ,, chest high they pick up the instruments too.

just mains , no monitors