Lyon & Healy Brown Face Mandolin

[Kevin Flanigan]

Lyon & Healy brown face Style "A" mandolin - The label says #30 - "A Spcl." I have seen pictures of other natural L&H Style "A" mandolins that seemed to go for $4-5 K. L&H also made a brown face mandola (like Dave Grisman's) but I have never seen another brown face mandolin. This one is in near-mint condition with no cracks or repairs. It has all its parts and a pristine original case. Any idea of date or value? Any feedback appreciated. Thanks

[Jim Garber]

That is really cool, kfstring. The only thing that looks a little off may be the bridge. Usually they are compensated.

[Marty Jacobson]

I am in love. Thanks for posting.

[JEStanek]

Gorgeous!

Jamie

[Gregg Henry]

Wow, what a beauty. I am not sure that, being an early one, #30, that compensated bridges were used. My #77 (B style) has a non-compensated bridge. But then again again it also has a radiused fretboard. Is that possibly original or likely a later alteration? And, regarding the brown face #30 - it it one of those somewhat rare long-scale A's? Lovely.

Gregg

[Jim Garber]

The serial numbering of these is a little wacky. They started over a few times. I am not sure if how early this one is. I believe that most of the long scale ones were symmetrical, tho I do seem to recall an asymmetrical one with a long scale, prob a transition one. I think we have to bring Hubert in on this thread.

[Kevin Flanigan]

Thanks for your responses folks. I believe everything on it, including the carved ebony bridge is original. The scale from nut to saddle is 13-3/4 inches. Does that make a difference? It also has little 3 inch working pull-out rod that extends from the treble side that I see referred to as a knee support but I also read it was designed to tuck into a classical players vest pocket so no strap was necessary...I guess that would make it an old chauvinist! lol

I still want your opinions: Do you think the brown face makes it a one-of-a-kind? ...and any idea about value?

Regards,
kfstring
(I have a Collings A, this Lyon & Healy, and an abalone inlaid koa teardrop Wurlitzer)

[mrmando]

Since it's asymmetrical AND long-scale, and has the pull-out rod, that would put it in late 1921 or early 1922, methinks. Heard tell of one other like that, although that one wasn't brown. Evidence indicates that the "special" instruments were numbered separately, so the low serial number does not indicate an early manufacture date.

kfstring -- please check the patent dates on the tailpiece and pickguard.

It's generally the short-scale asymmetrical A's that fetch the highest prices. I suppose this one's unusual qualities will help atone (in terms of sale price) for its being long-scale. You could ask for $5K and, if you don't get it, come down to $4.5K, I should think. I'd be surprised if the brown finish equates to a huge increase in the value.

Since it's #30 of a "special" batch, it is most likely not unique, just very uncommon. I do remember seeing Grisman's brown mandola before he bought it, in the Pioneer Music dealer display at Wintergrass.

[JeffD]

What a beauty.

[BradKlein]

Yes! The dark face really makes the tailpiece 'pop'!

[Kevin Flanigan]

Thanks for the feedback. Here are a few more pictures...this group of photos make the mandolin appear lighter than actual due to background & flash but shows the amazing condition. Does the 13-7/8 scale reduce the value?


114285

114284

114282

114283

Kevin
Albany NY

[Jim Garber]

It's generally the short-scale asymmetrical A's that fetch the highest prices. I suppose this one's unusual qualities will help atone (in terms of sale price) for its being long-scale. You could ask for $5K and, if you don't get it, come down to $4.5K, I should think. I'd be surprised if the brown finish equates to a huge increase in the value.

I agree with Martin here. L&H carved mandolins are one of the desirable models for classical players but most players prefer the shorter scale (13"). I like the look of this one (as do others). We all assume that you are putting this one on the market. The classifieds here are a great and safe place to sell mandolins and other stringed instruments. Just remember that if you sell you should donate to the Cafe.

[BradKlein]

I would NEVER assert that the short scale instruments are more desirable, or that the short scale adds to the resale value. They may be favored by some classical players, but the mandolin market is dominated by players of other than classical music. Even considering only carved-top L&H mandolins, I would imagine the great majority are in the hands of players whose interests are other than classical. And the majority mandolin players in the US have never played a short scale instrument. If it weren't for the Martin cant-top instruments you could say 99% of North American mando players had only played instruments close to the Gibson scale of 13 7/8". That's the 'standard' scale for a carved-top American mandolin, and I would never consider it a disadvantage in finding a buyer.

114289

[Jim Garber]

Brad: I was referring specifically to the market for L&H mandolins and I believe first that the majority of them are the later shorter scale ones to begin with and within the small market of people who play these for classical music, the L&H is considered desirable. That doesn't exclude the longer scale ones nor does it mean that they are worth any less. It is true that the majority of North American mandolin players play the std Gibson scale but it is a small percentage of those people who would own one of these anyway. No, I agree there is no disadvantage to find a buyer but I also do not think there is a price differential here.

[mrmando]

Admittedly this is a small sample size, but I know of 11 L&H carved mando-family instruments in the Seattle area. Two belong to dealers; all of the ones in private hands belong to someone with an interest in classical music, and even the dealers in question are not uninterested in classical music. I've never witnessed one being used in any other context. (Yes, there are YouTube clips of me playing bluegrass on one, but it was at a CMSA convention!)

Norman Blake is the exception, not the rule.

It may be true that not every classical player wants the short scale, but most of the ones who are willing to drop $4K on a Lyon & Healy do want the short scale.

[Kevin Flanigan]

Thank you Martin for the helpful analysis pointing to 1921-22. This particular mandolin rivals the beauty and quality of any mandolin I have ever seen. Admittedly my knowledge of scale length and sound comparison with other mandolins is limited. My fervor is based mostly on pictures with a little bit of internet research. Truth is, I have not played very many other vintage mandolins. That is why I turned to the Cafe. I really wanted to share my excitement about this instrument with other players and collectors. No Jim, I was not intending to sell this and just wanted a reality check. In the end, I have to say I am a bit disappointed this Lyon & Healy mandolin is not viewed quite as highly as I believed it deserves.

Regards,
kfstring

[mrmando]

They're great instruments but the market for them is just not very large. One player told me he was discussing them with a well-known, nationally prominent dealer who opined that only "little old ladies in mandolin orchestras" were interested in them. If you think my comments indicate any lack of regard for the instrument itself, then you're misinterpreting me. I'm just offering my sense of what the market is like for people trying to buy and sell L&H mandolins. Because it is a rare finish color, there might be some collector interest in this one (as opposed to player interest), and that might drive the price up a little, but it's hard to say.

I guess if you lived someplace where 99% of people drove Corvettes and you happened to drive a Mustang, the fact that your Mustang had a custom paint job wouldn't necessarily arouse a lot of additional interest.

I have good reason to believe, contrary to what Brad says, that L&H buyers will pay a premium for a short scale. I have no evidence to indicate that they'll pay a premium for a brown finish, although I could be wrong.

So, do you own this instrument? Did you acquire it recently or is it a family heirloom?

[delsbrother]

What scale is Blake's Style B?

I've always loved L&H styling, and had been lusting after one for most of my mando playing life. I considered the L&H a "bucket list" item..

..until I actually tried a short scale Style C. I found it very uncomfortable to play. Had it had a longer scale I probably would have bought it, considering I had made a trip to Buffalo Brothers specifically to try it. Obviously, a great many people do NOT find the short scale instruments uncomfortable to play, but it just wasn't for me. Admittedly, I am not a classical player, so I don't fit the "target demographic" according to Martin - but to me yours would've been the more desirable scale.

YMMV

[Jim Garber]

I have one of each, a long-scale symmetrical L&H-labelled A and a short-scale asymmetrical Washburn-labelled A. They are both lovely sounding. My longer one has neck issues and I am still trying to figure out what to do with it. When it was playable, it was a very nice-sounding mandolin, different from Gibson sound but certainly nothing wrong with it. I even had it strung with J-74s. The short scale one I have currently strung with Thomastiks and it is equally lovely and a joy to play. Then again, I have no problem shifting back and forth between different mandolins, different necks, bowlbacks, flattops and carved instruments. I like them all.

[Kevin Flanigan]

I have owned this Lyon & Healy for a little over a year. I bought it from an older friend of mine who does prison ministry with me in our Catholic Diocese. It was his father's but he never played. He knew my passion for guitar and mandolin and thought I should have it. After owning it for a while now, I too have sadly come to put it on a pedestal and don't really play it. That's just wrong! I have been thinking it really should be in the capable hands of someone who would cherish/play on the world's main stage - no longer hoarding it.

Thank you Marty, Jamie, Gregg, Jeff, Brad, and Delsbro for being unconditional affectionados. And really, thank you Martin and Jim too for presenting the worldly market the way you see it. That is what I asked for when I came to visit (even if I didn't necessarily hear what I wanted to hear). This thread is a real testimony to the Cafe! I am not sure what I will do with this Lyon & Healy...I have 3 daughters who each fairly recently became music teachers but only one currently plays a little mandolin..and she likes my Collings.

I will stop rambling and get to my final point. I would definitely consider trading to somebody logical (eg.Chris Thile?)...provided it was a fair exchange for something a little more utilitarian. Hey you Lloyd Loar F-5 owners...are you listening?

[BradKlein]

kfstring - It's generally considered bad form here on the cafe to seek offers to sell an instrument in the general forums, although I'm sure you'll get some, if you haven't already. Better to decide what you want to do and head for the Classifieds. Also, a great thing about the Cafe is that so many members use their real name (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?44360) - not required, but it really helps keep things honest and civil IMHO.

As for Norman Blake's style B, I'm fairly certain that it's long scale (although I seem to remember having been wrong about some things at some points in my life), and that's what I would expect for a player with roots in Old Time and Country.

This, I believe: The longer scale instruments are louder. The greater string tension 'drives' a carved top instrument better. The L&H carved top can handle D'Addario J-73 or 74s in most cases as well as the Gibsons of the day. Tone is a very subjective thing, and almost any instrument will be somebody's favorite. The finish on models A, B, and C is superlative - as fine as Gibson's best A-4s and A2Zs, maybe better. The tailpiece would make an awesome belt buckle. That an L&H B or C, missing its tailpiece cover is the best bargain in the vintage mandolin market!

Things I've heard, but don't believe: L&H carved mandolins are 'quieter' than the comparable Gibsons. They are primarily suitable or used for 'classical' music. (remember, ALL the American mandolin designs were created for classical music) The headstock scroll of the A is the most beautiful mandolin design ever. The headstock scroll of the A is an abomination.

I don't doubt that the laminated neck is less strong than the truss-rod design that Gibson settled on in the '20s - but I haven't seen more warping than with the thousands of teens A models that have survived a century. I bought an L&H C-model back in the '80s. It cost more than my first mandolin - a teens Gibson A-0, and less than a teens A-4 would have, and that's probably true to this day. It has a sweet tone with lots more high end focus than most teens paddle heads I've played - but not as much punch as the best of the later truss rod A Gibsons - but of course that's just to my unexceptional ears!

[Jim Garber]

I don't doubt that the laminated neck is less strong than the truss-rod design that Gibson settled on in the '20s - but I haven't seen more warping than with the thousands of teens A models that have survived a century.

I agree with you here for sure. I think that L&H was banking on the miracle of plastics -- that is the somewhat mysterious and often misunderstood "vulcanized fibre" that L&H favored for these instruments. VF is actually a cellulose-based plastic invented in the 19th century. One of my missions is to correct descriptions that call it vulcanized rubber -- I wrote immediately to even the usually impeccable Stan Jay and he corrected the listing. In any case, there in some weakness either in using that VF as a middle layer in the laminated necks or else the shape of some of the early necks of the As near the headstock being a little too thin esp with the headstock routed out. My older, long-scale has that problem.

[Bill Clements]

You've got a beautiful mandolin there!
I have no doubt if you try to sell it you'll have no problem.
Good luck!

[Kevin Flanigan]

I apologize if I did not follow the etiquette here...this is my first posting.
I truly just wanted to share my instrument with you all because I thought it deserving. I was not, and am not trying to pander in "bad form" to sell anything...I just want your thoughts as to whether the condition and any of its features made my mandolin more desirable than any others.
As far as the practice of using real names, thanks Brad - no problem. My name is Kevin Flanigan and I am from New York State's Capital District - I will update my profile for the future.

[BradKlein]

Hey Kevin. Welcome to the Cafe. Don't sweat it, this is a friendly space for the most part, and I'm not trying to be a hard-@ss.

Seriously, as folks have mentioned, yours is among the most valuable and desirable vintage mandolins out there excluding the Gibson F models of the 20's and 30's - so I wouldn't feel at all bad about the feedback. For many many folks, it would be a lifelong 'dream' mandolin and you'll be able to easily sell or trade it if something is more to your liking at some point. Many folks here have bought and sold instruments for years, looking for the perfect one, or amassing a collection, or just practicing 'catch and release' ownership. It's all good.

[Kevin Flanigan]

Thank you for the welcome Brad.
Kevin

[peter.coombe]

I have to admit to liking the vintage Lyon and Healys, and that brown top certainly is very interesting, I never knew they existed. I have an early long scale symmetric style A and soon will have a later short scale asymmetric style A. The scale length of the long scale is 13 & 3/4, so it is 1/8 inch shorter than the standard Gibson scale length. The short scale length is 13 inches which is the same as most bowl back mandolins which is why many classical players like it. However, Marissa Carroll, who is Australia's equivalent to Chris Thile in the classical world, plays a long scale style B rather beautifully I must say. The longer scale length should make a louder sounding mandolin, and people who have both have told me that is the case. The one I have is beat up, but has been beautifully made, and the varnish finish on the back is one of the best I have seen. There are a couple of reasons why classical music players prefer these mandolins. One is the sound, of course, the other is the playability. The combination of lighter construction, low neck angle and bridge, and the pickguard makes them delightful instruments to play. That unique pickguard is an essential part of the package.

Many of the vintage L&H have issues that require attention to get them sounding and playing at their best, which is not all that unusual for vintage instruments, but there are also some in excellent condition. Mine has a crack in the top, a lot of pick damage, and the bridge really needs to be replaced because the intonation is off with modern strings. The bridge looks like it has been in the wrong position for many decades, so there is a light patch in the varnish where it used to be before I moved it. It does have a different sound from my Gibson, more of a delicate sweet quality, and I think the L&H is quite clearly a superior instrument.

I am now making L&H reproduction mandolins. Not exact copies, but they do look, play and sound very similar, intonation is spot on, and they don't have any issues that vintage instruments have. The biggest difference is I have left out the scroll headstock for reasons of cost, it is not a vital part of the sound and playability, and I am not particularly fond of it. What I am trying to do is to retain the same playability and feel of the instrument and to retain and hopefully improve the sound. Feedback so far has been very good so more are in the pipeline. The sound is of a more light and delicate nature than my Gibson style oval hole mandolins that have a more solid sound and feel to them. Both are very nice, but different.

[keef]

Another great find! Though the low serial number would seem to indicate 1917 as year of manufacture, that is not the case here. I also have another Style A listed with 'Spec' on the label - that is also an asymmetrical mandolin, long scale and 28 frets, natural top, and offered not too long ago by Mandolin Bros. I would agree with Martin and Jim that these instruments were not made before 1920-1, and not later than around 1923.

It seems that the 'Spec' indication would likely mean a custom order or other one off instrument, and that these Specials probably had a separate numbering scheme from the 'standard' instruments, at least for some time. The 'Specs' I have seen have low serial numbers and were Styles A and B's, except for one - this has a high number (#2193) and, if I recall correctly since I do not have my picture archive available - was not a carved top mandolin, but a rather modest flatback model that I could not readily identify at the time, also because it had a brown (!) top.

[Kevin Flanigan]

Hey Keef:

I had been thinking the designation "A-Spcl" might have equated to the brown face...however, since yours is natural color what do you think the designation might actually mean? What is different about your A? Perhaps it is the combination of 13-3/4 scale and asymmetry? Some have said this may have been just the transition to the long scale, symmetrical Style A's...and the renamed Washburn Company?

Kevin Flanigan

[Jim Garber]

Some have said this may have been just the transition to the long scale, symmetrical Style A's...and the renamed Washburn Company?

I believe that the long-scale symmetrical A's (and other carved mandolins) came before and not after the short-scaled ones. The company itself was always Lyon & Healy. There was not Washburn company back then. Washburn was the name of the higher priced line of fretted instruments. The carved mandolins were first labelled Lyon & Healy and later were labelled Washburns.

[mrmando]

Jim is correct. Long-scale symmetrical A's precede short-scale asymmetrical ones. It does make sense to think of this Spec instrument as a transitional model. I wouldn't know whether it was built to order or as an experiment.

On the mandola #1 thread, Matt Vuksinich has weighed in with the news that he owns a brownface mandola with a "batch number" label; he doesn't mention whether the label says "Spec" or not. So we now know of at least two or possibly three brownface mandolas.

[Kevin Flanigan]

A few Lyon & Healy brown face mandolas but still no other brown face mandolins?

I discovered from Stan Jay at Mandolin Brothers he sold #29 "A Spcl." (one number before my #30 "A Spcl") and it had a natural spruce face, was asymmetrical, and had the long-scale length...However, its unique feature was the 28 (vs 24) fret fingerboard almost completely covering the sound hole with 5 inlaid dots (vs 1 single) after the 12th fret. So, now I am thinking that "Spcl." probably denoted the asymmetrical body but also that these were experimental/transitional one-of-a-kinds. For example, #29 is asymmetrical and was given 4 additional frets...whereas my #30 is asymmetrical and was given a the brown face, etc. Just some thoughts.

Any other Lyon & Healy "A Spcl." out there?
Kevin

[Jim Garber]

This Bernardo De Pace special (http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Lyon++Healy-Style+A+Professional+but+labeled+as+Style+5283-1920/2862) is esp interesting with a shorter body but with the longer scale length.

[mrmando]

Stan has the date wrong on the de Pace signature model. If it has the Washburn Style 5283 label, then it's what, 1924 or later? Certainly not 1920, and not part of the "Special" batch. I can't remember now if this is the one Grisman bought or Grisman has a second one. (The missing fret is something Dave Apollon did to some of his mandolins, which is a tantalizing hint at possible provenance.)

Anyway ... if the carved L&H mandolins have an equivalent to the Loar F5 or the Wm. L. Place Bacon Artist, surely the de Pace is it ... not just a different finish color, but a radical redesign of the instrument body, plus an association with a famous player. Yet Stan priced the de Pace at just $1,300 more than he's currently asking for what appears to be a 1922 Style A with a poorly repaired seam separation, missing tailpiece cover and replacement bridge. It's a premium, but not all that much of one.

BTW, that Style A also has an extended board. It would be a 27-fret board except that, as with the de Pace, the 26th fret is missing! Paging Mr. Apollon! (He did perform with a Style A before switching over to Gibsons; does anyone have a way of knowing which Style A might have been his?)
http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Lyon++Healy-Style+A+Professional+mandolin/3854

[mrmando]

Here's the #29 Special ... it has a 29-fret board with the 28th fret missing ... but has been refretted. Weird. Apollon can't have owned every extended-board Style A that goes through Mandolin Bros.

The date of 1912 is even more egregiously wrong than the 1920 date for the de Pace. But hey, I guess this was 5 years ago, before Hubert's book came out, when nobody knew anything.

http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Lyon++Healy-Style+A+Special-1912/1407

[Kevin Flanigan]

Thanks Martin...as the Church Lady says, "Isn't that SPECIAL?!"

It appears that each of these Lyon & Healy Specials may have a different combination of features supporting the theory that each is unique. It also explains why these just don't logically fit into Lyon & Healy's early numbering sequence. We now know the following:

#29: (1) is asymmetrical (2) appears to have the longer 13-3/4 scale length (neck joins the body exactly the same as #30), (3) has a natural spruce face, (4) but has the distinguishing feature of an extended fretboard with 28 frets (does look a bit strange to cover nearly the entire sound hole!)

#30: (1) is asymmetrical (2) has the longer 13-3/4 scale, (3) has more standard 24 fret fingerboard, (4) but has the distinguishing feature of (the only one?) having a brown face.

Unfortunately, L&H records appear to be virtually non-existent. Does anyone else know of any other L&H Specials ("Spcl.") out there that could either help confirm my theory or provide other explanations? Would looking at L&H carved mandolins be a useful research project? To start with, does Hubert's book shed any light on this particular discussion? Would I still be able to find answers at a library or museum anywhere in Chicago, Lyon & Healy's corporate home? Are there others resources at the Cafe I should be looking to?

[mrmando]

Hubert has the most complete serial number records, and even at that he doesn't have the critical mass of data that would lead to a lot of definite conclusions. The most we can say for sure about the Specials is that there were probably at least 30 instruments with that designation, including two long-scale asymmetrical mandolins. It is very well worth seeking out details on every L&H instrument that you can find; they've been discussed a fair amount on the Cafe over the years, and there should be some interesting posts way back in the archives.

I don't recall that Hubert's book says anything about the Special batch -- remember, yours is only the second exemplar we've seen. There is some brief discussion of serial numbers, but as he says above, he is just now formulating a solid theory about how the numbers were assigned. There is some good discussion in the book about how to narrow down the possible year of manufacture on a given instrument using features other than serial numbers.

New information has come to light since the book was published: in the past few years I've found both a Style A "Own Make" mandolin banjo and a Style C with a pull-out rest, neither of which is mentioned in the book. We can hope the book sells well enough to warrant a second edition with updated research.

[RNK]

Another great find! Though the low serial number would seem to indicate 1917 as year of manufacture, that is not the case here. I also have another Style A listed with 'Spec' on the label - that is also an asymmetrical mandolin, long scale and 28 frets, natural top, and offered not too long ago by Mandolin Bros. I would agree with Martin and Jim that these instruments were not made before 1920-1, and not later than around 1923.

It seems that the 'Spec' indication would likely mean a custom order or other one off instrument, and that these Specials probably had a separate numbering scheme from the 'standard' instruments, at least for some time. The 'Specs' I have seen have low serial numbers and were Styles A and B's, except for one - this has a high number (#2193) and, if I recall correctly since I do not have my picture archive available - was not a carved top mandolin, but a rather modest flatback model that I could not readily identify at the time, also because it had a brown (!) top.

I currently have a Lyon Healy #2193 brown face Style Spec. In great condition.

[RNK]

I currently have a Lyon Healy brown face model # 2193 "A" Style Spec

[JeffD]

I currently have a Lyon Healy brown face model # 2193 "A" Style Spec

Please post some pictures. I bet its beautiful.

[Bob A]

Far as I'm concerned, the high-end L&H/Washburn carved mandolins represent some of the finest mandolins ever produced in the USA. You have ony to look at the construction details to see that they were made by extremely talented instrument-makers. Design, materials, fit and finish are not surpassed.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, of course. The ones I've been able to handle have had a delightful chime and sweet tone, with a high end approaching the best Italian bowlbacks. The L&H bass, while not so dark and guitar-like as the Gibsons of the period, surpass anything a bowlback could produce.

They are the best all-around carved mandolins available, good for everything except bluegrass. When I found my Style A, at Fred Oster's shop in Philadelphia, I was so taken with the instrument and the sound it produced, that I forgot to bargain with him on the price. This is unheard-of behavior, and I can barely believe it of myself. For his part, when he heard me play, I suspect he was wondering if he couldn't maybe ask a higher price, if I didn't end up purchasing it. A sleeper, for sure.

Little old ladies in mandolin orchestras, my derriere.

I've never seen a brown-topped example; my first thought was to wonder about a refinish. At any rate, it's not the color that would move me toward a purchase, if I was in the market.

You asked about price; I paid in excess of 3K for mine, a decade ago. The market is not large, and I would expect the price to keep pace with inflation. You ought to get some new strings, and a selection of picks, and play it for a year. Then do what thou wilt, as Crowley said.

[RNK]

Just posted a picture of my Lyon Healy Model#2193 Style Spec. in classified section

[Jim Garber]

Just posted a picture of my Lyon Healy Model#2193 Style Spec. in classified section

That is a nice looking flattop mandolin. The ones earlier in this thread are the carved top models. Those were earlier called A-C. Those are the ones that are most desirable among the L&H mandolins. I believe in the earlier part of the 1920s those were lettered D-G, the G being the closest in looks to yours.


I currently have a Lyon Healy brown face model # 2193 "A" Style Spec

Does your label actually say that?

133274

[RNK]

Inside label reads- Lyon Healy Model# 2193 Style# Spec.

[RNK]

Not sure the value of this Mandolin. Has been in the family along time any help would be appreciated.

[BradKlein]

I don't think it's a valuable instrument, but as always, folks here would enjoy seeing more photos, and happily give you their opinions.

[mrmando]

RNK — check the Cafe guidelines, please. You can advertise your mandolin in the Classifieds, or you can talk about it here, but you're not allowed to both at the same time.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/faq.php

[RNK]

Oops-sorry.

[JEStanek]

We should only discuss the mandolin from the original post going forward now that he has the other in the classifieds.

Jamie