F Style Penchant

[lflngpicker]

I am really enjoying playing the mandolin and I feel the desire to get an F Model. More of a craving, really :). I am interested in getting a used one in very good or better condition. My budget is $600. The experts in this forum seem to recommend Loar, Kentucky and Eastman. Which models have the best action and tone? I like to chord and sing with mine, as well as play accompaniment in the church band, in addition to guitar. Thanks for your insights!

[emzech]

I read you user name as “Little Fling Picker.” I do get the ‘Life-Long’ thing though.

In that price range the ones you mentioned are all good. I prefer Eastman, then Kentucky, don’t know much about Loar. Of course getting an A-style at that price would almost certainly get you a better sounding and better playing instrument, but if the look of an F-style inspires you to play more then ultimately it’s the best model for you.

edit: I see in your signature that you already have a Gibson A and a Kentucky KmM-200-something. Do you think a $600 F-style would sound better than either of those two? For playing accompaniment in a church group I would think the Gibson must sound great.....

[Charles E.]

There is this still in the classifieds......

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/70359

This is a really good deal with upgraded tuners. I put them on my Eastman 315 and am very happy.
I do not know the owner of this mandolin and have NFI.

[Steve Zawacki]

That deal Charles E. mentioned sounded good. As an alternative, The Loar LM-520 is not bad at all for the price. Have had one for a few weeks now and it's not going anywhere. When well set up (Thank you, Mr. Fear for a job well done!) it's smooth. So, you do have choices.

[OldSausage]

The A style Penchant is cheaper but just as much of a craving.

[lflngpicker]

I appreciate the great suggestions. I am admittedly drawn to the look of the F, but also to the A style, David. I agree. And that deal Charles E mentioned is really a good one. I will look at the options you all listed.

[lflngpicker]

I would add that the Gibson A does have great tone, Emily, but I like things about my Kentucky's sound in terms of the deeper bass and sustain. Also, it seems that for a tall person, such as I am, the Kentucky fits my long arms and big hands. Does that make sense? Would that be a scale length issue that I should consider in the various makers? I have Parkinson's, so it is important for me to feel comfortable, as for all players, but I get very cramped hands and forearms at times, so I need "room" to play.

[kevbuch]

For some reason, the shape of f styles seem wierd to me. Like they should be fluorescent purple and shoot lasers while you play them.:confused:

[Beanzy]

For some reason, the shape of f styles seem wierd to me. Like they should be fluorescent purple and shoot lasers while you play them.:confused:

:)) I think that's only on the Master Of The Universe Model.

[Petrus]

For some reason, the shape of f styles seem wierd to me. Like they should be fluorescent purple and shoot lasers while you play them.:confused:

I'd love to know the story behind that innovation. Did Gibson come up with it? I suspect he was inspired by the scroll volute on violin headstocks, just as the f-holes echo the f-holes of the violin.

BTW, let's not get into an f-vs.-a style battle royale again. Many folks (me included) own examples of each. Major players have used both styles interchangeably. (I recently posted several pics of Ira Louvin using at least three different types of mando.) Not to mention bowlbacks, batwings, solid bodies, guitar style (mandolinetto), etc.

[kevbuch]

:)) I think that's only on the Master Of The Universe Model.

And it looks like it should make noise like the monolith in 2001 a space odyssey

[multidon]

There is a nice looking Kentucky KM 600 just like mine in the classifieds right now for 450. I like mine quite a bit and now gig with it frequently.there is also a nice looking KM 675 for 575.

[Wolfmanbob]

Generally, you would be paying $500 - $1000 just to get a scroll rather that an A model. If that's your budget, you're going to get just that. Something that looks like a scroll and not much more. You'd be better off saving for a while before you buy. BTW, if you watch the classifieds you can sometimes snare an older Gibson A for around $1000 which would be far, far superior to any Asian made mass produced scroll model you could get for thousands.

[Wolfmanbob]

Now I see you already have a Gibson A. I still think you should wait until you have more money, but if your determined I'd go with the Eastman or the Kentucky.

[Mark Wilson]

I've not played the Eastman nor the Kentucky F styles but if it's on looks alone, I really dig the look of the non-glossy and unadorned F's. Odd to me, that at this price point, no one seems to state their desire for the 'sound of an F over the A'. Only the look of it.

[OldSausage]

I've haven't played the Eastman nor the Kentucky F styles but if it's on looks alone, I really dig the look of the non-glossy and unadorned F's. Odd to me, that at this price point, no one seems to state their desire for the 'sound of an F over the A'. Only the look of it.

Well they would, if they knew what the difference was. But who can tell me in one short sentence, what is the sound difference between an A and an F? And then tell me what is the sound of one hand clapping.

[Wolfmanbob]

I've haven't played the Eastman nor the Kentucky F styles but if it's on looks alone, I really dig the look of the non-glossy and unadorned F's. Odd to me, that at this price point, no one seems to state their desire for the 'sound of an F over the A'. Only the look of it.

At this price range their really won't be much of a difference. The debate over whether their's a difference at any price range continues...I personally think it's more a question of the maker, the wood and the individual instrument. Not the presence or absemce of a scroll. Of course, they do look fine!

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I really dig the look of the...unadorned F's.

Me too. And square circles also get me every time.;)

[Alex Orr]

For some reason, the shape of f styles seem wierd to me. Like they should be fluorescent purple and shoot lasers while you play them.:confused:
Some of the newer Schmergels shoot lasers :)

If you're looking for a scroll in that price range then just buy whatever you think looks the best since you're likely just going to get a mediocre instrument with a fancy strap hanger.

[Mandorich]

For some reason, the shape of f styles seem wierd to me. Like they should be fluorescent purple and shoot lasers while you play them.:confused:

You say that like its's a bad thing! :)

[Mandorich]

Some of the newer Schmergels shoot lasers :)

If you're looking for a scroll in that price range then just buy whatever you think looks the best since you're likely just going to get a mediocre instrument with a fancy strap hanger.

While I understand the need to debate A vs F style until the end of time as a way to justify our own decisions, I grow increasingly frustrated with some members snobbish attitude toward Asian and/or lower priced mandolins. I've played quite a lot of mandolins and in my opinion it is possible to get good and not so good ones in any price point. I've played old Gibsons that sung like birds and some that croaked like frogs. I've seen Asian mandos that looked like they were finished while blindfolded and some that looked beautiful. Maybe I lucked out, but my Loar 520, which I got from a small music store, looks and plays great. Luckily the owner of the shop knew someone in Loar distribution who seems to have sent me the pick of the litter.

As long as your buying a solid wood, hand carved ( not pressed) instrument, you should be able to get something decent in your price range. Pro setup is essential as is finding an instrument that feels right in your hands and sounds right to your ears.

[lflngpicker]

So many great thoughts. I think those of us that are less knowledgeable, myself primarily, are wanting to understand how numbers of instruments represent quality and levels thereof, and we also find it hard to compare say, a comparable Kentucky KM-505 A style with a Kentucky KM-630. I don't have much in the way of local stores (Within 2 hours) near me that has anything but beginner mandolins to play. I do, have the Gibson (early teens) A style which I enjoy and the Kentucky KM-200 which sounds good as well. I do admit to liking the look of the F style, but honestly, to a novice who has a lot of guitar experience, I thought that the F models over $500 were an upgrade over my KM-200s MIJ (really nice BTW). I admit ignorance and am grateful for this great cafe which is educating me. I am motivated to practice and really have started using the mandolin in my church gig most Sundays. Thanks all!:mandosmiley:

[lflngpicker]

I found a nice vintage Kentucky KM-650, early 80's MIJ and made the deal. It is in great condition and comes with a HSC. I think this is going to be a nice mandolin. Thanks for your help.

[mandotrout777]

Well they would, if they knew what the difference was. But who can tell me in one short sentence, what is the sound difference between an A and an F? And then tell me what is the sound of one hand clapping.

Well, more than a short sentence, but here's some fuel for the fire.:) Sorry if it's been posted before.

One hand clapping...[ ]. I got nuthin'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_aq6OJJO2s

[OldSausage]

Well, there is only one sentence in there where he talks about the sound difference. He says the f style has more bark and projection, while the a style has more sustain. That seems a not unreasonable generalization, I wonder how many are ready to embrace it.

[Petrus]

I still have yet to read a convincing explanation for how the presence or absence of the scroll contributes (or fails to contribute) to the sound of two otherwise identical instruments, based on acoustic principles. My first thought is that it increases the size of the sound chamber, but does it increase it all that much, and especially stuck off in a little nook like that? Or does the scroll act as a sort of amplifier, like the sound cone on those old Victrola phonographs (you know, the dog listening to "his master's voice" and all)? Then again, the scroll is mostly a solid block, and its presence requires a larger head block, which would seem to dampen, not amplify sound.

I recently read through Siminoff's Ultimate Bluegrass Mandolin Construction Manual (not to make my own, just to gain a better appreciation of the work involved in making an instrument by hand.) Siminoff is full of brilliant ideas and observations, but he makes no mention of the sound differences between F and A style.

BTW, here's a blueprint to illustrate a little better what I'm thinking. Note that the scroll really doesn't increase the size of the resonating chamber that much, and there is a big block of wood associated with it. (And the points do nothing for the sound -- they're just separate pieces of wood glued on after the fact.)

114221

[Mike Bunting]

typo

[kevbuch]

Well, there is only one sentence in there where he talks about the sound difference. He says the f style has more bark and projection, while the a style has more sustain. That seems a not unreasonable generalization, I wonder how many are ready to embrace it.

Makes sense to me.

The scroll sais "HEY! Vibrations why don't you come follow this little twisty path?"

Vibrations- "ok Mr scroll! Tralalalala...oh no the path is dead end!" *falls away to their untimely demise*

Hooray for science! :mandosmiley:

[mandotrout777]

Well, there is only one sentence in there where he talks about the sound difference. He says the f style has more bark and projection, while the a style has more sustain. That seems a not unreasonable generalization, I wonder how many are ready to embrace it.

What strikes me when I listen to this is how different the two mandolins sound. This is consistent with my experience any time I've played the same builder's A and F styles side by side. I'm not terribly interested in the A vs F debate. I just saw this video clip the other day and immediately thought it was kinda funny given the prevailing opinion here.

[jaycat]

I'm not buying it. Whatever sound difference may be detected between the A and the F could just as easily be present between 2 different A's or two different F's.

[Eric F.]

Congrats on the KM-650. I hope you love it. Years ago I had a Japanese-made KM-1000 that was an absolute beast. I probably should have hung onto it but after I got my Arches I lost interest in other f-hole mandolins.

As for the video … I hear a difference in the two mandolins but there is no way that you can then determine that all or most or even any other f-style mandolins will necessarily sound different from the same model a-style. It's not much of a sample.

Plus, that Gallatin has a hook instead of a real scroll, so now you have to compare hook-scroll mandolins with Florentine-scroll models.

[mandotrout777]

I'm not buying it. Whatever sound difference may be detected between the A and the F could just as easily be present between 2 different A's or two different F's.

As I said, I'm not much interested in the debate. I'm aware of the general consensus on this board, which is what I'm not buying and don't suppose I ever will. I think that's supposed to be okay. If you guys want to opine that the difference between these two mandolins is just normal instrument to instrument variability, and nothing more, that's okay too. I'll act on my experience and opinion; you can act on yours and we're all happy.:)

[lflngpicker]

Thanks Eric! Your congrats mean a lot. I am convinced of two things: mandolins are a beautiful instrument and each one has its unique sound and appearance characteristics. I am very pleased to find a nice mandolin, which happens to be an F style, that I am hoping will sound as good as it looks in pictures online. I have heard these early 80's KM-650's are a well made instrument. I had to sell my KM-200 and a tube amplifier to buy it! :) Thanks for letting me know your KM-1000 was a nice one! I am glad to learn from the more experienced players in this forum. I only joined a short time ago, so I have a long way to go. Thanks!
Congrats on the KM-650. I hope you love it. Years ago I had a Japanese-made KM-1000 that was an absolute beast. I probably should have hung onto it but after I got my Arches I lost interest in other f-hole mandolins.

As for the video … I hear a difference in the two mandolins but there is no way that you can then determine that all or most or even any other f-style mandolins will necessarily sound different from the same model a-style. It's not much of a sample.

Plus, that Gallatin has a hook instead of a real scroll, so now you have to compare hook-scroll mandolins with Florentine-scroll models.

[mandotrout777]

Lflngpicker - Enjoy your new mandolin. I just re-read your original post and I apologize for my part in derailing your thread into the A vs F discussion. Have fun and play what makes you happy.

[lflngpicker]

I enjoyed the exchange of ideas, Jeff. Thanks for contributing. Great looking Mandolin in your Avatar! What is it, may I ask?
Lflngpicker - Enjoy your new mandolin. I just re-read your original post and I apologize for my part in derailing your thread into the A vs F discussion. Have fun and play what makes you happy.

[mandotrout777]

I enjoyed the exchange of ideas, Jeff. Thanks for contributing. Great looking Mandolin in your Avatar! What is it, may I ask?

Thanks. It's my Gibson F-5G.

[Ken Olmstead]

I found a nice vintage Kentucky KM-650, early 80's MIJ and made the deal. It is in great condition and comes with a HSC. I think this is going to be a nice mandolin. Thanks for your help.

Woo hoo, congrats man! I look forward to the pic! ;)

[lflngpicker]

I sure will post one, Ken. Thanks much. :cool:

[almeriastrings]

What strikes me when I listen to this is how different the two mandolins sound. This is consistent with my experience any time I've played the same builder's A and F styles side by side. I'm not terribly interested in the A vs F debate. I just saw this video clip the other day and immediately thought it was kinda funny given the prevailing opinion here.

To give the other side of the coin, I recently had a Gibson A-5 and F-5G from the same year here for a few weeks, so I got to do a side-by-side comparison - and the difference in sound was imperceptible to non-existent. Beyond my powers to detect any. Close your eyes and they both sounded great, and there was nothing in the volume, the sustain, the tone, or anything else. Incredibly consistent sounding. You may well get more variation in "lower end" instruments, simply because the construction is different and you get a lot more variability from one to another to start with, but once you start comparing Collings, Gibson, Ellis, Nugget, Gilchrist and other higher end builders examples, where there really is a very consistent, "signature" sound, my own experience is that their A and F models sound so close that I, for one, cannot tell. I also have two Silverangel's - an F and an A-style, and again, they just sound like Silverangel's with the A-style every bit as 'good' as the F-model.

[Nick Gellie]

"but once you start comparing Collings, Gibson, Ellis, Nugget, Gilchrist and other higher end builders examples, where there really is a very consistent, "signature" sound, my own experience is that their A and F models sound so close that I, for one, cannot tell. I also have two Silverangel's - an F and an A-style, and again, they just sound like Silverangel's with the A-style every bit as 'good' as the F-model."

Almeria,

I think that your comparison of A vs F instruments is one of the best posts I have seen on the café so far.

[mandotrout777]

To give the other side of the coin, I recently had a Gibson A-5 and F-5G from the same year here for a few weeks, so I got to do a side-by-side comparison - and the difference in sound was imperceptible to non-existent. Beyond my powers to detect any. Close your eyes and they both sounded great, and there was nothing in the volume, the sustain, the tone, or anything else. Incredibly consistent sounding. You may well get more variation in "lower end" instruments, simply because the construction is different and you get a lot more variability from one to another to start with, but once you start comparing Collings, Gibson, Ellis, Nugget, Gilchrist and other higher end builders examples, where there really is a very consistent, "signature" sound, my own experience is that their A and F models sound so close that I, for one, cannot tell. I also have two Silverangel's - an F and an A-style, and again, they just sound like Silverangel's with the A-style every bit as 'good' as the F-model.

This hypothesis is "testable" with one of your outstanding sound clip comparisons.:)

By the way, with some manufacturers I consistently prefer the sound of their A model mandolins. I never meant to say that F models always sound better. In the video I posted, I think I would prefer the A if I heard them in person.

[lflngpicker]

As a player who started, like many, as a guitarist, I can say that they both look great, too. If I live to see the day, I will want the best sounding and playing editions of both A and F that I will be able to afford. I doubt I have bought my last mandolin. Nothing like a great fretboard with really playable action and accurate intonation. I am excited that this old early 80's KM-650 might be a really great find. The fellow who sold it to me is a member in this Cafe and he is a very knowledgeable individual that has educated me quite a lot in the process of buying his mandolin. I expect it sometime early to middle of next week.

[Mike Bunting]

To give the other side of the coin, I recently had a Gibson A-5 and F-5G from the same year here for a few weeks, so I got to do a side-by-side comparison - and the difference in sound was imperceptible to non-existent. Beyond my powers to detect any. Close your eyes and they both sounded great, and there was nothing in the volume, the sustain, the tone, or anything else. Incredibly consistent sounding. You may well get more variation in "lower end" instruments, simply because the construction is different and you get a lot more variability from one to another to start with, but once you start comparing Collings, Gibson, Ellis, Nugget, Gilchrist and other higher end builders examples, where there really is a very consistent, "signature" sound, my own experience is that their A and F models sound so close that I, for one, cannot tell. I also have two Silverangel's - an F and an A-style, and again, they just sound like Silverangel's with the A-style every bit as 'good' as the F-model.
I have to agree, my ears hear no difference 'tween the two. But I have asked both Paul Duff and Chris Stanley and they will say that there is a difference, but subtle one. I would think that they are listening to many more mandolins every day than I am and with much more attuned and critical ears than I. My own abilities to hear tonal differences have developed over the years and I can't hear significant difference between A's and F's.