super rare double top mandobass

[bluesmandolinman]

boy this is as rare as it gets :

a double top mandobass probably made in France by GELAS

:disbelief::disbelief::disbelief:

it has a few repairs and seller says it could use some set up to improve string action

http://www.ebay.de/itm/alter-antiker-Mandolinen-Bass-Mandobass-/111260049770?pt=Antike_Musikinstrumente&hash=item19e79da16a

[Tavy]

Got to love those Gelas instruments even if they do all look like they've collapsed!

I wonder how you would even go about doing a setup on something like that - not going to be easy to adjust that bridge?

[BradKlein]

What a fantastic looking instrument. The bridge design looks as if the string tension pulls UP on the top rather than pushes down? Or perhaps I am misreading this??

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[Jim Garber]

You are correct, Brad. I never saw or played one that was intact and never quite understood the concept either. France was a real hotbed of oddball concepts back in that day. Rene, that bass is amazing.

[pfox14]

Very surreal just like the art scene in France in the 20s.

[Martin Jonas]

Got to love those Gelas instruments even if they do all look like they've collapsed!

I wonder how you would even go about doing a setup on something like that - not going to be easy to adjust that bridge?

Indeed. I have a Gelas-type mandolin which I got at a reasonable price but with an action that was too high for playing. No big deal for a conventional mandolin, but a complete nightmare on a Gelas. The strings have a zig-zag path through the bridge meaning they pull up the rear part of the bridge and press down on the saddle at the front of the bridge. Just lowering the saddle resulted in the strings coming out of their first bend too high to make contact with the saddle, so I needed to drill new holes into the rear part of the bridge. It's vaguely playable now and has a nice tone, but the action is still too high to be comfortable and I have been putting off doing something about that as I can't face butchering that bridge any further.

Of course, Gelas mandolins are nothing like as rare as this mandobass -- that's quite something!

Martin

[jdsobol]

Indeed. I have a Gelas-type mandolin which I got at a reasonable price but with an action that was too high for playing. No big deal for a conventional mandolin, but a complete nightmare on a Gelas. The strings have a zig-zag path through the bridge meaning they pull up the rear part of the bridge and press down on the saddle at the front of the bridge. Just lowering the saddle resulted in the strings coming out of their first bend too high to make contact with the saddle, so I needed to drill new holes into the rear part of the bridge. It's vaguely playable now and has a nice tone, but the action is still too high to be comfortable and I have been putting off doing something about that as I can't face butchering that bridge any further.

Of course, Gelas mandolins are nothing like as rare as this mandobass -- that's quite something!

Martin

I've had a couple of those double-top mandolins, one a Gelas and the other labeled Rene Gerome. They've both been intriguing to look at but disappointing to play. One of those ideas that looks better than it sounds, and sounds better in concept than it either looks or sounds in action.

[bluesmandolinman]

it turned out that the mandobass is located only 3 km from my home ( what ? small mandolin world ! )
From what I understood in a short telefon call it is currently not tuned like a mandobass but like a bass guitar with bass guitar strings.
i have an appointment with the seller tomorrow to see it in person. Playablity is my main point.

I don´t think I will buy it unless the price will be considerable lower than on ebay.

So someone that is interested to buy could tell me here what particularly I should check ( for him )

[Tavy]

it turned out that the mandobass is located only 3 km from my home ( what ? small mandolin world ! )
From what I understood in a short telefon call it is currently not tuned like a mandobass but like a bass guitar with bass guitar strings.

My understanding is that mandobasses were tuned as a double bass (or bass guitar if you prefer), and they were never in 5ths tuning.

[BradKlein]

Agreed. That is certainly the norm for tuning a mandobass. Just like a bass guitar.

In fact, the bass mandolin is arguably the true predecessor of the electric bass guitar, to a greater degree than the double bass. Frets, wrapped metal strings, played pizzicato with a plectrum or fingers.

[bluesmandolinman]

My understanding is that mandobasses were tuned as a double bass (or bass guitar if you prefer), and they were never in 5ths tuning.

Thanks for that ! You can allways learn something here at the cafe.

[Rob Sharer]

So someone that is interested to buy could tell me here what particularly I should check ( for him )

With these Gelas-style instruments, it's important to check if the two tops are touching. They aren't supposed to touch; if they are touching, it's an indication that the "top top" has sunk. This could be a bargaining point if you try to acquire this instrument.

For the record, I own a Gelas mandolin with a sunken "top top" and it is still a very loud machine.


Rob

[brunello97]

For the record, I own a Gelas mandolin with a sunken "top top" and it is still a very loud machine. Rob

Do you have pictures of your Gelas available for posting, Rob, that illustrate your's condition (or for the curious as well)? I've always liked these Gelas and getting one is reasonably high on my MAS list so I keep an eye on them as I can.

thanks,

Mick

[Jim Garber]

i dunno, Mick. Those mandolins make me sort of nervous, like they are inside-out. Reminds me of gurning.

[bluesmandolinman]

Rob :
I checked the mandobass yesterday and the top top was not sunken.
The 2 repaired cracks seen in the pictures are the only issues I have seen.
It was in playing condition as is. The sound was awesome. Deeeeep tone.

Fascinating instrument... I am tempted, but before I negotiate the price I have to get the ok from my wife but that seems the most problematic point for me. She´s tolerant with me in general but with that mandobass .... Boy this thing is huge and she hates the idea of the bass standing in the corner of our living room... and it would be the only room where this thing will even fit in

btw he had a Gelas mandolin and a mandola ! And even a guitar ( not Gelas ) with that construction !

~o) I have to think about it

[Martin Jonas]

Fascinating instrument... I am tempted, but before I negotiate the price I have to get the ok from my wife but that seems the most problematic point for me. She´s tolerant with me in general but with that mandobass .... Boy this thing is huge and she hates the idea of the bass standing in the corner of our living room... and it would be the only room where this thing will even fit in

btw he had a Gelas mandolin and a mandola ! And even a guitar ( not Gelas ) with that construction !



Sounds intriguing! There's a lot of information on Gelas instruments in these old Cafe threads, which you may already have seen:

Link 1 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?32121-Gelas-mandolins)
Link 2 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?28685-French-table-top-mandolin)

Plus some useful information in German on Gelas guitars here (http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/weissg_doppeldecke.htm), with a link to some very detailed acoustical data (also in German) here (http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/weissg_akustik.htm).

Martin

[Jim Garber]

btw he had a Gelas mandolin and a mandola ! And even a guitar ( not Gelas ) with that construction !

AFAIK many of these oddball instruments were not actually built by Lucien Gelas but were built for him by other luthiers.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucien_G%C3%A9las):

Gélas produced the instruments with the help of guitar-makers (following his patent): at first Théodore Gaudet and later Jean Roviès, Beuscher, Richard Jacob and others. The instruments included classical guitars, mandolins, jazz double-basses and Hawaiian guitars.

Was this bass actually made by Gélas ?

[morgan]

I've got a Gelas mandolin from the 20s (and am the originator of one of the old threads referenced above).

A couple of things - as discussed above, "gelas" is a construction type and not a builder, so they're not all the same. Martin identified at least six builders: Jean Roviès, René Gérome, Gaudet, Goblet et Fils, Rowies and Louis Patenotte. All Gelas instruments have the bridge under tension and the double table, but come in various back configurations, including bowlbacks. Liking or not liking Gelas instruments may be somewhat akin to liking or not liking A-style mandolins – the statement is overly generic.

Mine has JR on the label and is presumably a Jean Rovies. It has a pretty distinctive and to many ears very nice sound. Very resonant and long sustain with strong but not at all bluegrassy bass

The action on mine was a little high - not killer but not optimal. I thought with the oddball construction the action couldn't be addressed. I brought it to a luthier (Tom Keating) to get a crack cleated and he managed to lower the action by filling and re-drilling the holes in the ebony portion of the bridge, and shaving down the bridge insert/saddle, so it plays much better now. Sounds like Martin tried a similar approach, but with less success – the original action may have been just too high (the risk of acquiring instruments at “reasonable price” on ebay!, but if I recall from Martin’s old post about the purchase, it was actually quite inexpensive). So there is at least some hope of addressing high action on these things

Not sure how any of that translates to the bass in question , but good luck with the acquisition. Sounds like thedouble table bass resonance scales up well! Family negotiations can be the hardest part of any purchase, but hopefully she will recognize that it is much a work of art worthy of prominent display as it is a bass.

Did you play the mandola? I’ve thought that the sound would be perfect for mandola.

[Martin Jonas]

The action on mine was a little high - not killer but not optimal. I thought with the oddball construction the action couldn't be addressed. I brought it to a luthier (Tom Keating) to get a crack cleated and he managed to lower the action by filling and re-drilling the holes in the ebony portion of the bridge, and shaving down the bridge insert/saddle, so it plays much better now. Sounds like Martin tried a similar approach, but with less success – the original action may have been just too high (the risk of acquiring instruments at “reasonable price” on ebay!, but if I recall from Martin’s old post about the purchase, it was actually quite inexpensive). So there is at least some hope of addressing high action on these things


It's not that bad -- the action was too high to play when I got it, but it's reasonably OK now. I just picked it up again and it's better than I remembered. Around 2.5mm at the 12th fret. Playable like it is but in an ideal world I'd like to be just under 2mm as it's somewhat uncomfortable to play for longer periods at the current action. I probably can take the additional 0.5mm down by shaving the saddle further without having to redrill the holes again, I just haven't had the drive to do it. The tone is certainly unusual, loud and sweet but not really like any other mandolin I have. Mine is an undated René Gérome which I got on Ebay FR for a reasonable 161 Euros including shipping and at that price it was a decent buy. I just haven't really spent enough time with it to really figure out its strengths and weaknesses, mostly because the highish action means that I usually pick up one of my other mandolins first.

Martin