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Bob DeVellis
Dec-21-2003, 10:33pm
Here's a pretty Martin. I hate to think what he restrung it with, though.

Style 6 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2367815186&category=10179)

vkioulaphides
Dec-22-2003, 8:39am
As my college-age students might have said, "like, WOW!"

Alex Timmerman
Dec-22-2003, 12:27pm
Thanks Bobd,

Absolutely splendid!!!


Alex

Eugene
Dec-22-2003, 12:45pm
I agree! #The rosewood is lovely...and the bowl's spacers, the bridge, the binding...all ivory! #(Psst...This would be a fine way to introduce American mandolins into your collection, Alex.) #The decor of this piece places its manufacture between 1901 and 1903. #I wrote the seller hoping the reason he "can't make out the ser[ial] number" might be that he doesn't know where to find it; I told him where to look and hope he writes back. #Perhaps a little too paternal towards old mandolins, I also admonished him to go with very light strings if he hadn't already.

mandolooter
Dec-22-2003, 2:15pm
If I had 2 G's layin around I'd buy that and join the "Order of the Bowl" but that ain't gonna happen this week! What a beauty! Is his opening bid in line with its actual value?

pklima
Dec-22-2003, 2:35pm
Lovely, but I'll be keeping my 6a... plain-looking as it may be.

vkioulaphides
Dec-22-2003, 2:43pm
mandolooter, if you were to score this baby straight off eBay just like that, why... you'd be joining the "Order of the Bowl" as Grand Master! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

We will still call you "Brother" in the meanwhile... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

mandolooter
Dec-22-2003, 3:11pm
Many thanks "V"! I'll consider myself a partial member with my mandolutes.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Eugene
Dec-22-2003, 3:17pm
Is his opening bid in line with its actual value?
Probably, but they don't change hands very often so it can be difficult to pin a really accurate appraisal on them. There were only just over 100 style 6 mandolins made in the whole of their production (excluding the 6a mandolins like Peter's)...and this is one of the earlier, fancier style 6 mandolins. I actually would expect a dealer to try to claim a bit more for it. eBay really isn't the place for such a thing to claim its fair value in the US.

Jim Garber
Dec-23-2003, 8:00am
BION, VG Price Guide lists it as $2500-2800. That would be in exc. condition. This one has a belly crack and is missing the bone insert in the bridge. Other than that It looks all right as a playing instrument.

I also had emailed the seller about the light gauge strings and he promised to listen to me/us. I think he is fairly knowledgeable about instruments and knew where to look for info: the various Martin books and I would bet the VG guide for pricing.

Once again, this is leans more toward the collector instrument, tho even with the multitude of ornamentation is pretty tastefull as far as well-ornamented bowlbacks go. I would say that it doesn't sound a whit better than most other rosewood Martins of the era. Still it is nice to look at.

My prediction is that it will get a bid sooner or later and will go for more than the opener.

BTW Henry Strobel (http://www.henrystrobel.com/intinst.htm), an author and violin maker has some nice pics of a style 6, slightly different than the ebay one. His is also missing that bridge insert.

Jim

PlayerOf8
Dec-23-2003, 8:05am
Eugene,
Ten years ago, Style 6s were still pretty high in price compared to older Italian instruments. I know a player who paid $2500 for his in 1989. . I don't ever see the prices falling. This is the kind of instrument that I would borrow money from a bank if I needed to.

George

Eugene
Dec-23-2003, 8:49am
I've heard back from the seller too. #He knows where to look for the serial number; he just can't quite read it. #I had another look at the eBay piece. #It only has 18 frets. #Sometime early in this decorative phase of the style 6, Martin had slid the upper edge of the soundhole a bit southward to accomodate a full 20 frets. #I don't know of the exact date for this transition but, based on images of instruments I've seen from this time period, I believe it was by 1902. #18 is a slightly odd number in itself, very early Martins typically having 17; 18 places the top of the range at b-flat''''. #My guess is that this is from early in that 1901-1903 window (i.e. 1901).

Eugene
Dec-23-2003, 9:26am
...And, of course, style 6 was the top of Martin's mandolin line until 1904 when the style 7 was introduced.

Bob A
Dec-23-2003, 12:25pm
The instrument in question is similar to, but slightly more ornate than, the style 6 I rec'd in a recent trade.

The headstock and fretboard inlay is somewhat more extensive than mine, and a wholly different design. The pickguard on mine has the same inlay, but is not bordered with pearl (or abalone). The tuner plate seems to have the same engraving as mine, but the tuners on the ebay instrument seem a bit more clunky.

My instrument is s/n 1102, from 1902.

It is little short of incredible to imagine the time and effort involved in all this extremely delicate inlay work. It is noteworthy that the early inalys are typically much more finely-drawn: one wonders at the ability to produce such a delicate tracery of line is so brittle a substance.

I eagerly await the word from the restorer to send him my Martin: it needs setup and a new tuner button, but I have little hope of playing it in my lifetime. Still, it may yet come to pass.

I hope someone from here scores this number. I seem to recall it had a buy-it-now price of 2K: now it has a single bid of 1500. Were I in funds and need (hah) I would have tossed a couple large at it in a heartbeat, feeling as I do that it is woefully underpriced for what it is.

Eugene
Dec-23-2003, 12:40pm
May I ask how many frets does yours have, Bob A?

Bob A
Dec-23-2003, 12:58pm
Certainly, Eugene. I'd counted the twenty frets, but in the excitement of the moment I forgot to include the data in my post.

Eugene
Dec-23-2003, 1:08pm
Thank you, sir.

Jim Garber
Dec-23-2003, 1:30pm
It only has 18 frets. #Sometime early in this decorative phase of the style 6, Martin had slid the upper edge of the soundhole a bit southward to accomodate a full 20 frets. #I don't know of the exact date for this transition but, based on images of instruments I've seen from this time period, I believe it was by 1902. #18 is a slightly odd number in itself, very early Martins typically having 17; 18 places the top of the range at b-flat''''. #My guess is that this is from early in that 1901-1903 window (i.e. 1901).
I counted the frets on the Strobel one and it does indeed have 17.

Jim

Alex Timmerman
Dec-23-2003, 7:53pm
It´s gone!

Eugene
Dec-23-2003, 8:07pm
Hmmm...he must have received a more lucrative offer.

Alex Timmerman
Dec-23-2003, 8:14pm
Yeah......

Jim Garber
Dec-24-2003, 11:26am
Even tho the subject that started this is no longer available, I thought it interesting to see another later example of a Style 6 on frets.com (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Mandolin/Martin/Martin6/martin6.html). This one is much more understated and in many ways more appealing aesthetically to me.

It is also interesting that this one has a straight ivory bridge as opposed to the channeled/sofa-like one.

Jim

Jim Garber
Jan-21-2004, 11:30pm
I hope someone from here scores this number.
Well, your wish is my command.

I must confess that after much negotiation and schoozing, etc. I was able to purchase this beauty. I didn't want to mention it on this board until the mandolin actually physically came thru my door. As of this afternoon, it is safe and sound in its new home -- I have it wrapped in a blanket with an alarm clock and a Valentine Abt solo until it adjusts http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

No, I was not the one who stopped the auction. Evidentally, the seller was overwhelmed with over 40 emails but didn't want to deal with it all, so he stopped the auction without a high bidder. After the auction was over, I located his telephone number and worked out a deal. I paid a fair amount, but I think it is worth it.

The problem now is to find the right luthier to fix the crack and a few other small details. It is an exquisite example of fine workmanship. I hope that it sounds and plays as well as it looks.

One amazing thing is the amount of work that went into the ivory bridge and saddle. Perhaps bratsche or pklima would be interested in a sideline of vintage bridge repros?

Jim

jasona
Jan-22-2004, 12:52am
Congrats! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Its a beauty for sure, and I'd love to hear it sing.

Bob A
Jan-22-2004, 11:17am
You da MAN, Jim. I'm proud of your negotiating skills and determination.

Your bridge is the same as on my 6, except the saddle is low enough to actually work - that's one of the minor problems that will need to be addressed by TC. The tailpiece cover is perhaps a bit more ornate than mine, which is a fleur-de-lys with some scrollwork.

Engraving on these turn of the century instruments is a fascinating subfield. I still marvel at the engraved pearl in the old Vegas, and of course the metal parts are all decorated. The industry must have been a satisfying place to work for engravers. All work looks to have been freehand - certainly pantographs were available, but I'd be surprised and disappointed to find them in use.

Jim Garber
Jan-22-2004, 11:29am
I am working with a jeweler and engraver to see what he can do. He showed me some examples and all were done freehand. Some were quite ornate. He says that there is practically no market for such a thing but we are seeing what there is. I think there is an interest in the quality of craftsmanship.

Bob A: have you posted pictures of your 6 here? I don't recall seeing them. I did read of it being held hostage by one of our favorite luthiers.

BTW I also find it hard to read the serial number but it seems to be on the inside neck block and reads either 913 or 813 either of which would put it squarely in 1901, according to the Martin list. Eugene's consummate knowledge is again verified!!

Speaking of artistry, here is the pickguard.

bratsche
Jan-22-2004, 1:12pm
Congratulations, Jim! Looks like a beautiful instrument.

As to that bridge - wow! I cannot even begin to fathom how I would ever be able to "repro" one of those without some (?) kind of intricate and sophisticated power engraving tool. But then, I suppose that in 1901 they did those things all by hand. Yikes, it boggles the mind! Do I understand correctly that the saddle is a separate part? I hope so, because it looks like the string grooves are quite worn down. The ivory bridge I saw on the Martin Style D or E or whatever it was that I got to examine and play in November was in one piece, but a lot less ornate.

bratsche

vkioulaphides
Jan-22-2004, 1:20pm
Congrats, Jim! I hope it sounds as gorgeous as it looks.

And, say... the American Federation of Musicians is looking for a full-time negotiator for its Symphonic Division. Ehm... you interested? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jim Garber
Jan-22-2004, 1:52pm
Do I understand correctly that the saddle is a separate part? #I hope so, because it looks like the string grooves are quite worn down. The ivory bridge I saw on the Martin Style D or E or whatever it was that I got to examine and play in November was in one piece, but a lot less ornate.
This is the standard bridge design for higher-end instruments of the period. My Vega has an ebony version with a bone (or ivory) saddle. I actually have a Leland flatback that has the same type of bridge. It is a very clever design because it allows the bridge to dictate the spacing of the strings but the saddle to dictate the height.

I think I will string this up with the ultralight Calaces to check neck angle and sound. I am wary of the effect on the table crack but will lower the tension and get me (quick) to a luthiery.

Bob A
Jan-22-2004, 2:23pm
Alas, Jim, I am not digital-capable. My daughter did gt me a digial camera for Xmas, but I have no proper ports etc. A real shame, as I have a roomful of gorgeous instruments with which to fan the flames of desire. (Well, perhaps I exaggerate; too, TC has a few of my toys in various stages of resurrection.)

Eugene
Jan-22-2004, 2:31pm
Mighty tasty, Jim. One thing I love about Martin's engraving is that it was cut to varying depths to simulate a three-dimensional effect. For comparison, look at the cuts in a Gibson engraving job; they can be executed very neatly at times, but they are all to the same depth and look somehow "flat" in comparison.

Eugene
Jan-22-2004, 2:52pm
1901 Style 4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2374962047&category=10179), anyone?

Jim Garber
Jan-22-2004, 3:08pm
1901 Style 4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2374962047&category=10179), anyone?
Examining all these higher end Martins, what astounds me is the variety of these instruments. Each one seems different in terms of inlay and engraving patterns, even within the same style.

Mark Levesque
Jan-22-2004, 4:17pm
How would you describe the sound of these Martin bowlbacks?

Jim Garber
Jan-22-2004, 4:25pm
Since this is my first one, I will leave the answering of Mark's query to Eugene and Peter K and the two Bobs, and any of the other Martinians who have much more experience. Mine doesn't have strings yet, tho will prob by tonight.

Jim

Bob DeVellis
Jan-22-2004, 4:59pm
Bravo, Jim!

A beautiful instrument that has found an ideal home - what could be better?

As for the tone of Martin bowlbacks, having only 1 bowlback of any brand, I have nothing equivalent to compare it to. To me, my Style 5 is "what a bowlback sounds like." In a more general comparison against flatback instruments of roughly the same age, I'd say brilliant but not strident, delicate but not weak. Mine has a strong treble that's bell-like and clear. The bass courses aren't as meaty as a modern carved back, but they shouldn't be. They're clear, with a rounded tone. Balance across strings is very good. right now, I have a set of good-fer-nuttin' GHS classicals on it that aren't even fresh and are reluctant to stay in tune, so it's by no means sounding its best. Perhaps more because of the tonal balance than sheer decibels, this thing projects really well. It isn't a soft-sounding instrument and it tolerates a considerable dynamic range very well. You can barely touch the strings and they'll speak clearly or you can play them considerably more forcefully and they don't seem over-driven. So a full range from soft to very penetrating sounds are all available. But I should really let others with far more experience of bowlbacks describe what is distinctly Martin.

pklima
Jan-22-2004, 5:39pm
I've had a few different American bowlbacks, but they were so different that my experience isn't all that useful.

One was a Stahl which was very loud and bright with a percussive attack and long shimmering sustain. I've heard someone say that the Larsons' bowlbacks bridged the gap between Italian and American sounds; I haven't played an Italian bowlback, but I can say it bridged the gap between bowlbacks and mandolin-banjos nicely.

Another was a very small, light Vega - much quieter, less bright, generally "friendlier" especially when it came to smoothing out lousy tremolo. The diametrical opposite of the Stahl. My Martin (a late 6a with extra-plain top decoration) is somewhere inbetween - bright but in a way that I'd describe as juicy rather than strident. It seems easier to draw a pleasant tone out of it than it was with the others.

Eugene
Jan-23-2004, 8:41am
I guess my experience is similar to Peter's and Bob's. #The Martins I've handled and the couple I've owned all seemed to consistently lack that brassy, twangy clangor that comes with many bowlbacks (especially cheaper American pieces of the early 20th c.); Martin tone is well balanced, strong on pitch, and short on twangy noise. #Usually this produces a sweet but focused tone that is strong on the principal. #This went too far in a 1915 style 2 I owned, which was just too thin and bright without any bassy richness; I sold it a couple years ago. #My favorite mandolin in all the world to play and hear is a one-of-a-kind 1908 Martin similar to Peter's 6a. #It's really hard for me to assess this particular piece objectively. #Dr. Dave Cohen has graphically analyzed its modes of vibration to bypass my subjectivity, but I have no idea how to analyze such stuff. #With any luck, he'll publish those images in an article and tell us all what the h*** they mean. #Carlo Aonzo played my Martin and said "This is very good."

vkioulaphides
Jan-23-2004, 8:41am
I have had but a cursory acquaintance with Eugene's Martin at Carlo Aonzo's latest New York Workshop; I bypass the sad story of my having rushed in, mando-less, from a last-minute bass engagement. Short version: Eugene, ever kind and generous, let me play his Martin while he played guitar for one number.

Based, then, on that very brief exposure: Eugene's Martin was quite the nightingale; bright but round (i.e. not brittle), resonant but not blaring, focused but not tight. It was a true pleasure to play; if I am not mistaken, it had Lenzners on, the kind with wound A-strings.

I know full well that my, ehm... ornithological analogy does not pass muster with the more sober, scientific minds on this board but I must stick with it. The tone-quality of a (quality) Italian is more like a cooing turtledove: more warm than brilliant, more intimate than "stage-y", more "I've something sweet to tell you" (to quote the oooooold, parlour song) than TA-DA!!!

Along those lines —and in my usual tendency to digress— I must bewail the misdirected efforts of some present-day luthiers to make concert-grand (pianos) out of their finely wrought mandolins. Personally, I don't really care to see cooing turtledoves mutate into operatic divas. I like both but, ehm... in different circumstances.

Jim Garber
Jan-23-2004, 8:57am
It sounds like we are in a need of a meeting of the Bowlback Alliance for the ultimate bowlback tasting. One possibility, at least for those of us in the US, would be at CMSA in Philadelphia this fall. What do you all say?

BTW I have to envy Eugene, Bobd, Victor and Peter for their skill and eloquence at describing sounds coming from these contraptions. Once I get mine up and running I will attempt it, depending on how much luthier TLC it needs. Stay tuned.

Bob A
Jan-23-2004, 10:19am
Not only a mandotasting: we could stand to standardise the vocabulary as well, to close the distance between the subjective and objective realities. And of course such a meeting would be an ideal place to establish a consensus relating the vocab to the instruments.

With luck I might have a baker's half-dozen bowls by fall, in playing order. And Philadelphia is a few hours' drive for me. Certainly worth considering.

Jim Garber
Jan-23-2004, 10:26am
Bob A (and anyone else)...

While you are in the neighborhood, why not make the trip up to NY for a weekend of fun and frolic at Carlo Aonzo's Mandolin Workshop? Could be mando-madness week. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

vkioulaphides
Jan-23-2004, 10:30am
Today must be the day for me to paraphrase old songs but, yes, I, too, have had Philadelphia on my mind. Problem is, C.M.S.A. will happen a weekend apart from The Next Coming of Sr. Aonzo, and I definitely want to attend that.

Add to this the obvious fact that weekends are prime time, employment-wise, for us musicians, and my chances of dodging work for TWO weekends in a row are pretty bleak. Good grief, I could barely do so for ONE, last time around, and missed 25% of Carlo's wisdom! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

milazzese
Jan-27-2004, 12:36am
Earlier in this topic there was mention of a "VG Price Guide." What is it?

Eugene
Jan-27-2004, 2:19pm
"Vintage Guitar." I tend to think the values it prints are a bit of optimistic inflation.

Jim Garber
Jan-27-2004, 3:30pm
In general, the VG Price Guide sometimes overvalues and sometimes undervalues. It is, of course, just a guide. Prob the4 value of the bowlbacks are overinflated. On the other hand, the values in the Guide are for instruments in excellent original condition.

I have yet to find any bowlback I have bought off eBay, for instance, that didn't need some help from the luthier's touch. Perhaps this is because they are such delicate creatures.

Jim

grsnovi
Feb-15-2004, 10:05pm
http://hometown.aol.com/lildtown/mando6.jpg

Here is a front shot of my Vega. Jim and I have corresponded some and from the look of his tuner plate, I'd say the engravers were all working against at least a master drawing since his Vega plate is nearly identical to mine. Unfortunately, I lost the string pin cover and what is on it is an un-engraved replacement.

I was delighted that the case I got from Lark, works so well for this beauty.

BTW - the bridge is typical - what you are seeing is heavy shadow from the sun streaming through the door at the headstock end of the instrument (which is lying on the floor).

Eugene
Feb-17-2004, 1:22pm
Very nice, Gary. You should post a series of images in the "post a picture" section. There is a bowlback thread there already that features a few nice Vegas.

grsnovi
Feb-17-2004, 3:57pm
I'm new here and its only been a week. I did post a sequence over there - the one above was prompted by the close-up at the top of this page.

I sort of have been running down and jumping into older threads as a result of my search for a case for the Vega (which has a happy ending, with pictures in the Equipment area).

Eugene
Feb-17-2004, 4:30pm
I saw. It was lovely there too. I thought it might enrich the chat (and help perpetuate the thread) here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=8488). I consider you to be one lucky Gary; your Vega is very attractive and looks to have been lovingly maintained and artfully restored.