Sapele or Mahogany?

[multidon]

Is there a definitive way to tell which you have on an instrument? The only things I have been able to find out in my research is that sapele often displays a ribbon like grain pattern, but not always, so that's not definitive. There is also supposedly a definitive way that shows up only under a microscope. Anyone know a way to tell the difference without having to be scientist?

[Marty Jacobson]

The difference between a true (Honduran) mahogany and sapele is quite obvious. Weight, color, texture, and figure are all markedly different.
But many of the things we call mahogany these days (or the dealers do) are very similar to sapele. Khaya ivorensis and the Swietenias come to mind as "African Mahogany" variants which can be nearly identical in color, weight, texture, and figure to some sapele.

[sunburst]

...the Swietenias come to mind...

Marty, I'm not sure how "the Swietenias" can all be much different from Honduran mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla.
It is true that there is a long list of mahogany species, and an even longer list of woods called mahogany, and it is true that it can take an expert to tell the difference under a finish sometimes, and even the experts can be fooled.

[Bertram Henze]

...and an even longer list of woods called mahogany, and it is true that it can take an expert to tell the difference under a finish sometimes, and even the experts can be fooled.

If that is possible, isn't Sapele just another Mahogany? :grin:

[Marty Jacobson]

Marty, I'm not sure how "the Swietenias" can all be much different from Honduran mahogany, Swietenia macrophylla.

Oh, I was just saying there is a ton of variety even among mahogany's closest relatives.

The big wood dealers will sell anything that looks like mahogany as "African mahogany", just based on its appearance. Some of it is really nice wood (specifically Khaya ivorensis), but as it's usually quite dense, in an instrument, it behaves more like a rosewood than like a mahogany.

[Samurai19]

From my experience sapele smells alot like cedar when you cut into it, it's also a pain to bend. As far as tone is concerned there's really not a discernible difference between it and mahogany (to my ears anyway).

[multidon]

Guys thank you very much for the responses so far. Let me be a little more clear on the question so maybe I can get a little more detail. When South American mahogany started getting a little harder to get and more expensive some instrument makers switched to sapele for their lower level models around 2007 or so. They did so without much fanfare. During that transition period they sometimes were considered interchangable. For example Martin specs for the 15 series in 2007 states body solid sapele or mahogany. It was a crap shoot then as to what you got. When people complained they started making D 15 and D 15M with an up charge for the M. So if you happen to run into an instrument from that nebulous period when no distin tion was made is there a way to tell the difference for a layman? They look pretty much the same to me but Im no expert like you guys.

My understanding is that sapele is in the same family as the "true" mahoganies and that is the justification for companies calling it a mahogany. But isnt everything related if you go back far enough in the biological classification system? Some problem with lots of woods. Lumber industry trade names are a real mine field Ive discovered. Brazilian walnut Brazilian cherry and Bolivian rosewood come to mind.

[multidon]

Samaurai19 thank you also but Im looking for a way to tell the difference on a finished instrument. I cant cut into it or bend it. A visual difference would be most helpful. Tone differences if there are any would be essetially useless since if there even are any differe.nt instruments have individual tone voices.

[sunburst]

Just a curiosity question:
If you can't look at it and tell what the wood is, if you can't listen to it and tell what the wood is, does it matter what the wood is? In other words, 'why do you want to know'? (Perhaps it is something you want to sell and be able to accurately represent what the wood is?)
Trying to pin down exact species, when it comes to tropical exotics, can be so difficult for anyone who didn't see the tree that it came from that sometimes it comes down to just calling it "mahogany" or whatever, and that's the best we can do.

[thistle3585]

Scrape a small piece off and send it to the US Forestry Center for Wood Anatomy. I can tell the difference between Swietenia macrophylla and any other "mahogany" because I only have an allergic reaction to it when I machine it. Twelve or so years ago I wrote a 15 page dissertation on mahogany and the lumber industry for a wooden boat building group. Most of it had to deal with plywoods but there was a section on dimensional wood. Basically, wood dealers would call what they were bringing in to the US whatever they needed to in order to sell it. The one thing that the Lacey Act gave us, only thing of benefit in my opinion, is the ability to actually know what we are buying since there now has to be a paper trail.

[multidon]

Jonn my motivation for wanting to know is that I am the sort of person who is always on the lookout for a used instrument deal. I recently acquired a nice Larivee L03 at a very reasonable price. They changed the wood from mahogany to sapele at around 2007 or so. Exact date for the change seems to be nebulous. It is difficult to tell the age of a Larricee by the SN unlike Martin where it is very easy. There is no reliable database for Larivee serial numbers that I have been able to find. Now John you do make a great point. I love the guitar regardless of the wood used. I already bought it so obviously not a deal breaker. Just curious to know exactly what I have and as you say if I ever in the future decide to let it go to accurately represent it.

Genuine mahogany seems to be more desirable to some as evidenced by the fact that Martin feels it is worth an up charge on their 15 series.

[sunburst]

Genuine mahogany seems to be more desirable to some as evidenced by the fact that Martin feels it is worth an up charge on their 15 series.

I can understand your curiosity, but you've picked a tough task, identifying some-kinda-mahogany in a finished instrument.

The mere fact that genuine mahogany seems to be more desirable, coupled with growing scarcity, is plenty of reason for Martin's up charge. In other words, even if sapele is a better wood with a better sound (or is roughly equivalent, as is more likely), if Martin can sell genuine mahogany for more, they might as well!

[multidon]

Marty says that " The difference between a true Hondoran mahogany and sapele is quite obvious. Weight color texture and figure are all markedly different". And John is basically saying that is impossible to tell and even experts can be fooled.

I am confused.

Marty is it possible to be more specific about the "obvious" differences that you see like color texture and figure? I guess when I asked this question I was kind of hoping for something like a grain structure difference that would be visible under magnification or some such.

LMI Web site says sapele is slightly heavier than mahogany with a finer texture and a characterisic striping that occurs with interlocking grain when quartersawn. Khaya it is said has the same sort of striping for the same reason and a coarser texture than mahogany. Their description of true mahogany does not mention striping. So are the stripes the definitive clue?

[sunburst]

John is basically saying that is impossible to tell and even experts can be fooled.

Well no, that's not what I said. I said it is difficult to identify what kind of mahogany you have in a finished instrument. You can't get a good look at the end grain, you can't take a sample (without some pretty serious damage to the instrument), you can't weigh it directly to determine density... basically, the fact that the wood is glued into a structure and covered with a finish thwarts many of the methods we use to determine species. Add to that the similarity between these species, and a definite ID is tough.
Stripes are not a definite clue. Genuine mahogany can (and sometimes does) have interlocking grain and can display "ribbon grain" or "stripe" figure.

[multidon]

Fair enough John you did say difficult not impossible. I did not mean to change the gist of what you said. I believe I will try contacting Larrivee directly. Perhaps with my serial number they can give me an answer.

I do think it is unfortunate that there is no way for someone who is just a musician and not a wood expert to easily tell what they are buying. You are pretty much at the mercy of the seller of the instrument and their honesty. I guess I am looking for a "litmus test" and there doesnt seem to be one. At least not one that anyone is willing to share?

I found this article that others might be interested in reading. I was fascinated! Had no idea there were so many different kinds of "mahogany"!

http://www.woodshopnews.com/news/wood-markets/502578-unraveling-the-mysteries-of-mahogany

[Tom Haywood]

Good article. Thanks, Don.

[mirwa]

You are pretty much at the mercy of the seller of the instrument and their honesty. I guess I am looking for a "litmus test" and there doesnt seem to be one. At least not one that anyone is willing to share?

Why is it so important to know whether it is mahogany or sapele, they are both from the same tree family. What origins of mahogany be it then honduran - china - west indian - cuban - new zealand. The list is endless.

The important thing is how does it sound

Steve

[multidon]

Steve it sounds fantastic! I would not have bought it otherwise. Larrivee makes an impressively nice guitar I think. Makes me want to try one of their mandolins.

I answered the question about why its important to me in a previous post. I am just curious. Not only about what wood I have but also whether there is a way for a layman to tell the difference. I want to be able to be accurate in my description if I ever sell it. And I just like knowing what I have. Im funny that way. When I order seafood in a restaurant I dont want a "fish dinner". I want to know if its cod, flounder, haddock, etc.

[brunello97]

Steve it sounds fantastic! I would not have bought it otherwise. Larrivee makes an impressively nice guitar I think. Makes me want to try one of their mandolins.

I answered the question about why its important to me in a previous post. I am just curious. Not only about what wood I have but also whether there is a way for a layman to tell the difference. I want to be able to be accurate in my description if I ever sell it. And I just like knowing what I have. Im funny that way. When I order seafood in a restaurant I dont want a "fish dinner". I want to know if its cod, flounder, haddock, etc.


You're not listening, Don. It doesn't matter what kind of fish it is, it matters how it tastes..... ;)

Mick

[mirwa]

I want to be able to be accurate in my description if I ever sell it. And I just like knowing what I have. Im funny that way. When I order seafood in a restaurant I dont want a "fish dinner". I want to know if its cod, flounder, haddock, etc.

Your analogy is interesting,

I agree, I like to know what Im eating, but we are talking about what we are consuming into our bodies, you may have allergies, you may die from what you eat.

A comparison if I may, your car, what kind of steel is it made from, china steel / american steel, 20 percent carbon 40 percent, wouldnt you also like to accuratley describe your car when you sell it.

Even I, a Larrivee warranty agent, would not be able to tell you exactly what wood is on that guitar if you presented it in front of me tommorrow, Id have a good guess, but its impossible to guarantee.

Id also re-interate the question, what does it matter, if it sounds great then thats all that matters.

[multidon]

Agreed Steve 100 percent. The sound is the thing. And thats why I bought it. You will get no arguement from me. I would not have bought it if it had not knocked my socks off. I own a few really nice guitars already including a sapele Martin and a Khaya Taylor. So I really didnt need it. But what does need have to do with it? I fell in love!

Still the curiousity remains. Its in my nature. I cant help myself. I have sent an inquiry to Larrivee. Surely they keep records and they know what woods they use. I wait patiently for a reply while I do a little minor work on her (dress fret ends clean grimy fingerboard fresh strings et. )

I know we have member who check in here that are wood professionals dealers in wood etc. Wood experts who have studied this type of thing extensively. When other wood questions arise I have seen them check in with minute details and tossing about technical terminology. I was hoping they would contribute something useful to this thread. Oh well. I have appreciated the various responses I did get. I will post the answer I get from Larrivee if and when I get it if anyone is still interested then.

[Bill Snyder]

Well Don I understand your desire to know. It makes perfectly good sense to me. One reason to know is because you DO like the combination and you might want to look for it again. Another is just good old curiosity. :)
Having said that I suspect there is a very good chance you are not going to get a conclusive answer. From anyone. I think there is a pretty good chance know one knows the answer, not even the folks at Larivee. I hope I am wrong so that you can satisfy your desire to know.

[brunello97]

You're still not listening, Don. Buy the product. Don't ask questions.

20% carbon in steel? That would indeed be a cause for alarm. Maybe not your aquarium filter. The fish would like the clean water.

Mick

[Shelagh Moore]

As a former wood scientist I can usually tell the difference between sapele and the Khaya and Swietenia mahoganies although some examples of each can look rather similar. In any case sapele has characteristics that makes it a good instrument wood.

I would have thought that any good maker/factory ought to have traceability of supply sufficient to be able to inform the customer properly.

[Bernie Daniel]

As a former wood scientist I can usually tell the difference between sapele and the Khaya and Swietenia mahoganies although some examples of each can look rather similar. In any case sapele has characteristics that makes it a good instrument wood.

I would have thought that any good maker/factory ought to have traceability of supply sufficient to be able to inform the customer properly.

Once a scientist always a scientist Richard unless you had a Vulcan mind meld! :)

[sebastiaan56]

Well I've smoked both and can't tell the difference...

[Bertram Henze]

Buy the product. Don't ask questions.

Produce the question. Question the product. :cool:

[Shelagh Moore]

Once a scientist always a scientist Richard unless you had a Vulcan mind meld!

True... although over 40 years I have moved from wood science to medical science to nanoscience! It probably is time for the Vulcan mind meld now though...

[Doug Edwards]

This came from a wood bin at a closed dulcimer factory in a bin labeled Mahogany. I think it's the catch all Phillipian Mahogany. any other guesses?


111365

[David Newton]

From here it looks like slab-cut Honduras Mahogany.

[J.Albert]

[[ Still the curiousity remains. Its in my nature. I cant help myself. I have sent an inquiry to Larrivee. ]]

Post a few detailed pics, and let the rest of us have a look...

[multidon]

OK as per request here are some pictures. I understand Larrivee is known for using clear finishes only and they do not stain their wood so this is the natural color as far as I know.
111463111464111465

[John Arnold]

It's not sapele. As far as teaching laymen how to identify woods, I made valiant attempts over on UMGF, but I finally had to give it up....or go crazy. It seems that there are many laymen out there who do a lot of looking, but not much seeing. Maybe describing wood features like pores or growth rings is akin to dancing about architecture.

This came from a wood bin at a closed dulcimer factory in a bin labeled Mahogany. I think it's the catch all Phillipian Mahogany. any other guesses?
I agree with David....slab-cut Honduran mahogany.

[mirwa]

It's not sapele. As far as teaching laymen how to identify woods,

I cut and pasted this from someones website, its pretty self explanantory,

For 99.9 percent of players, I reckon its near impossible for them to identify the difference,

For 80 percent of builders assessing a finshed guitar, I dont think they could tell the difference,

For the other 20 percent of builders that assess a built guitar I think they would make an educated guess but still could not be definitive

All of course my 2 cents worth

[multidon]

Thank you for all the replies. I understand the frustration some of you may feel for trying to teach laymen like me how to tell the difference with little success. I get it believe me. Mirwa I assume the samples from the top are Honduran African and sapele? To me the African stands out somehow. It seems more contrasty than the other two to me. I have a Taylor made from African Khaya that has that same sort of look. So I think I could tell that pretty easily. Hondouran and sapele not so much. John and Mirwa give me little hope there.

For the record my question has been answered definitively. Based on my serial number Larrivee tells me my guitar was manufactured in 2003. They did not use sapele until 2006 and stopped using it in 2009. So what you are looking at in the picture is a one piece solid Hondouran mahogany back.

[mirwa]

The back appears to be bookmatched, not one piece

[multidon]

Yea I thought it looked bookmatched also but I can find no seam. If it is bookmatched there is no center reinforcing strip on the inside and the seam is so perfect it left no trace.

[sunburst]

I built a mahogany OM guitar a while back and I lost my back center seam... couldn't find it. Ended up with the end graft off to one side a little bit because I couldn't find center on the back plate. With mahogany, if the grain is straight and parallel at the joint and there is no run out in the grain, a center glue joint can "disappear". Yours looks book matched to me to. There is a 2-or-so inch wide center band and there as a dark streak of grain just below the waist in each lower bout. Those, as well as other symmetries, indicate a book match. It could have been built without a back graft inside. Interestingly, Gibson used to add the center back graft inside even when they used one piece backs!

[mirwa]

You can see the join in picture 3, yes its a tight join, which is what you would expect. The centre join is actually of centre to the heel cap as well, not a big deal at all.

My point with the three pieces of wood is as john mentioned earlier, without seeing end grain or feeling the weight of the raw wood, any determination of species is merely a guess, yes an educated guess by those of us that build for a living but still a guess.

Even with it in our hands as a raw product its still pretty hard, anyone can tell the difference between mahogany and say ebony or rosewood, but between different types of rosewood or mahogany and sapele its not easy to damn near impossible in some instances

[Bernie Daniel]

Is that the join? Pretty nice work I'd say.

[mirwa]

No, its joined in the centre

[multidon]

Thank you for the correction gentlemen. I really thought it was one piece because of the lack of an obvious center seam yet was puzzled features by various features of the wood being mirrored side to side. I am just as happy it is bookmatched two piece but really well done. Larrivee reputation for immaculate workmanship is intact.

[John Arnold]

In addition to the online problems I have had describing wood anatomy, the other issue is photo quality. For example, the photo that Mirwa posted is nowhere near detailed enough to make positive identifications. In general, African mahogany (Khaya) and sapele tend to have a deeper ribbon stripe than Honduran mahogany. On tangential surfaces (slab cuts), African can be distinguished from Honduran by the staggered rays. In Honduran, the rays are storied (in rows), which produces ripple marks. This may require a magnifying glass, or a macro photo to see. On quartered surfaces, the rays (which produce silking) appear quite different in sapele.